16
Perhaps differing from our traditionalists in this matter, I personally interpret ALL "masculine" and "feminine" indications (eg of signs, planets, etc) in Yang and Yin terms (that is, in the extended meanings of those cosmological terms), and never as meaning "man" (male sex) or "woman" (female sex).

17
Deb wrote:
Is this of interest - the research that Kim Farnell did on this subject?
Astrology, Sex and Great Lovers - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/love.html
I seem to remember Kim saying that she found no reliable indicators of homosexuality and considered it, like gender itself, to be something that the horoscope is neutral about. However, although it is hard for me to give concrete examples,
Last year in my blog I gave a look to GIACOMO (not Giovanni ) Casanova

http://heavenastrolabe.net/about-star-crossed-love/

this is evidently a case of excess. Too many women (if there is this idea for a man, I don't know)

Sun, Venus and Mars in a masculine quadrant, the third. Moon in the fourth, feminine.

Moon and Sun connected by a trine (the man will marry) in masculine signs.

Mars is invisible in Pisces, so it gives some weakness.
Venus visible and matutine (oriental to the Sun) gives a very strong masculine appetite.
Venus and Mars are with the Aquarius water, one of the listed horrida sidera.

And because Venus is with Mars beheld by Saturn:

Lastly, if Saturn be in familiarity with them, he will likewise co-operate, by tending to produce greater impurity and obscenity, and greater evil altogether;


and Mercury the public scandal:

and Mercury to greater mobility, diversity, activity, and notoriety of the passions.


obviously here it is missing all the judgement about temperament and quality of the soul and the rest, but here it's quite easy to apply Ptolemy text in my opinion,

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

18
Hi Mark

In my astrological practice, I came across a combination or midpoint tree with Venus/Uranus/Neptune in charts of male homosexuals very often. Many also have/had a combination of Venus/Neptune plus another inner planet or the sun.

Just a few examples out of 8 charts checked:

Klaus Wovereit, Mayor of Berlin ? VE(MA) = UR/NE
Elton John - UR(MA) = VE/NE
George Michael ? UR = VE/NE
Leonardo da Vinci ? VE = UR/NE

If Venus represents tastes or love life, and Uranus/Neptune, strange things, the unknown, to pass boundaries, then this makes sense.

Ren?

19
In my astrological practice, I came across a combination or midpoint tree with Venus/Uranus/Neptune in charts of male homosexuals very often. Many also have/had a combination of Venus/Neptune plus another inner planet or the sun.

Just a few examples out of 8 charts checked:

Klaus Wovereit, Mayor of Berlin ? VE(MA) = UR/NE
Elton John - UR(MA) = VE/NE
George Michael ? UR = VE/NE
Leonardo da Vinci ? VE = UR/NE

If Venus represents tastes or love life, and Uranus/Neptune, strange things, the unknown, to pass boundaries, then this makes sense.

Ren?
Hello Rene,

Sorry for not replying to your post earlier. I dont tend to use midpoints so this is not something I would normally come across. I was wondering how many charts you have based your conclusion on excluding the ones cited above? Its obviously not a large sample.

Equally, have you noted any trends in charts for Lesbians?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

20
I was wondering how many charts you have based your conclusion on excluding the ones cited above? Its obviously not a large sample.
Hi Marc

A friend of mine had a huge male dog, a great Dane; it was not interested in females and had other strange habits. My friend said: ?I think my dog is gay? so I did the chart (he had the birth time) and found the combination of Venus/Uranus/Neptune, looked it up in Ebertin?s cooking book and the delineation fit.

On several other occasions, I found this combination in my practise or in gay (male, I didn?t check females) celebrity charts.
When I did a more statistical search, the phenomenon, ?oh yes that fits?, disappeared. :-? This disappearance of the aha-effect after a couple of meaningful delineations has happened to me so often and with other planetary combinations, techniques etc. that I gave up statistical searches. There must be a rule behind that disappearance. I think it?s the same as with I Ging:

It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.


Actually this happened to me after I had done the I Ging twice with the same result, THE MOUNTAIN. I was in a special state of mind and was absolutely sure that THE MOUNTAIN had to come again the third time but THE FOOL came.

Perhaps this is rather a subject for Philosophy and Science.:)

Ren?

21
Hello Rene,

Oh the old Rabbit down the hole experience..eh? Ah well it keeps us on our toes I suppose. I have always doubted that astrology will just slot neatly into reductionist methodology such as statistical analysis. However, lots of excellent astrologers would take issue with that view.
Actually this happened to me after I had done the I Ging twice with the same result, THE MOUNTAIN. I was in a special state of mind and was absolutely sure that THE MOUNTAIN had to come again the third time but THE FOOL came.


Getting Hexagram 4 after asking the same question is a common experience. The I Ching describes itself as 'an exceptional recourse' and should not be repeatedly consulted on the same issue. Its just like people trying to cast horary after horary to get the answer they want. I tend to regard the I Ching like a wise friend. Wouldn't your friend consider it rude to keep asking him/her the same question over and over?

Also from Hexagram 4 of the I Ching:
if mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt.
Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

22
I find it strange that there is always a focus on homosexuality, but what about asexuality, otherwise known as a lack of sexuality? People like Jane Austen, Emily Dickinson, Hans Christian Anderson? I would consider myself to be asexual, since I have a very low sex drive, and my only long-term relationship was never sexual. I don't usually admit this, but for the sake of astrology, I will say I am 30 and have actually truly never been sexual, but I am an otherwise healthy, conventionally attractive female. It's out of choice basically. I have no real desire for sex, especially in the physical world. I am curious if this might be easier to see than homosexuality?

For myself, I cannot really relate it to Mars - my Mars is very strong (in Aries in the 10th - also in a day chart, so more fiery), but my Venus is very weak (conjunct Mars in Aries in the 10th, opposite Pluto). The astrologers that have looked at my chart have no idea - they go the other route (over-sexed, etc.). :-?

23
Hi, Tanit!

I actually find the topic that you're suggesting very interesting and have often tried to find more examples and especially aphorisms that would shed some better light onto my confusion since, just like you and, apparently, the astrologers whom you have asked for the advice, i find it to be a very blurry area and often I believe that it is usually completely neglected .

I couldn't agree more with this:
I am curious if this might be easier to see than homosexuality?
It should.
And I believe that deb has actually already mentioned what I think is the main reason for this.
Is this of interest - the research that Kim Farnell did on this subject?
Astrology, Sex and Great Lovers - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/love.html
I seem to remember Kim saying that she found no reliable indicators of homosexuality and considered it, like gender itself, to be something that the horoscope is neutral about. However, although it is hard for me to give concrete examples, I have personally noticed signatures of unconventiality in the natal charts I have worked with of older people - but maybe because they had a harder time being socially open than the modern genration (?)
I have about 6-7 (mostly male) friends who are homosexuals and at least three of them are actually very close friends. i'm saying this because I'm very familiar with their love life and my impression is exactly the same- there are no strong signs of deviated sexual behaviour in their charts what so ever.
My best friend has known that he was gay since he was 12 . He did not wear dresses as a kid :), he did not play with girls...the first time he realised that there was something "odd" going on was when his libido woke up. Around the time when most kids start noticing the opposite sex, he started noticing the same sex and that was all.

BUT, he was never really traumatized by that fact (which is a bit strange for a 15yo) , he told his parents about it when he was 17 and, though his father was a man of almost 70 at the time, the both accepted it very easily. He has never lost a single friend because he is a gay (quite the contrary), no significant inconveniences and, by all means, no unnatural sexual behaviour.
He was 21 when he lost his virginity. Not only did everything go smoothly for him, but he'd often find himself in hilarious situations constructed by people who were trying to help and express their friendly attitude. his mother used to be a huge "problem" . :lol: When he admitted that he didn't like girl ks, she said "OK" and the very next morning she told him that she had made him his first urologist appointment. She said:"I don't mind you being gay, but as long as you're one, you'll be a healthy gay!". :))) And from then on, she insisted that he should see his doctor at least twice a year. And he was too embarrassed to tell her that he didn't even have sex at the time. :)

Soon after he became student, he was elected for the chief coordinator of the local Human Rights Group and is currently editing the newsletter of another teenage pregnancy advisory group. he is actually very ardent in spreading the knowledge about the importance of healthy sexual life among young people.
He has had only two long-term, serious relationships so far and very few flings- he is the most monogamous person that i know.
Also, he is very "masculine" and "regular" boy. The problem is that he is very goodlooking too and I my female friends usually have very hard time accepting the fact that he is a gay. :)

The story isn't much different in other cases either but, the bottom line is- most of them have no indications of stressful activities or events related to their love or sexual life (apart from, of course, occasionally broken hearts! :D )

On the other hand, his sister has got some very stressful aspects in her chart and, though she is only 38, she has been divorced twice, her first husband threatened to kidnap their kids and she had to hide her relationship with him for 4 years (they even emigrated when they were 24) because he comes from a very strict Muslim family whilst she is a Christian. Her 2nd husband was an important figure in our town and his extramarital affairs were publicly exposed some 3 years ago. She moved had to temporarily move abroad for the second time in her life because she couldn't handle the pressure.
She, of course, is straight. But her private life is very messy.

Now, as for asexuality- there are usually two possible reasons for it- a complete lack of sexual interest or a deliberate choice of the Native to completely exclude sexual activities from his/her life (monks for instance but, on occasions, scientists too- Nikola Tesla allegedly said that sexual life is a waste of time :D ).
But, at this point, I have to ask you if you'd feel comfortable if we opened another thread for this topic?

24
Tanit wrote:I find it strange that there is always a focus on homosexuality, but what about asexuality, otherwise known as a lack of sexuality? People like Jane Austen, Emily Dickinson, Hans Christian Anderson? I would consider myself to be asexual, since I have a very low sex drive, and my only long-term relationship was never sexual. I don't usually admit this, but for the sake of astrology, I will say I am 30 and have actually truly never been sexual, but I am an otherwise healthy, conventionally attractive female. It's out of choice basically. I have no real desire for sex, especially in the physical world. I am curious if this might be easier to see than homosexuality?

For myself, I cannot really relate it to Mars - my Mars is very strong (in Aries in the 10th - also in a day chart, so more fiery), but my Venus is very weak (conjunct Mars in Aries in the 10th, opposite Pluto). The astrologers that have looked at my chart have no idea - they go the other route (over-sexed, etc.). :-?
A few points:
-Your Venus could be exalted sidereally-tends to give "Exalted love"
-There are a couple of famous mystics who have taken renunciation(sanyasa)-they too have Venus in Tropical Aries(sidereal pisces).

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Ramakrishna
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kriyananda%2C_Swami

Arthur Schopenhauer was heavily influenced by "Upanishads"
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Sch ... %2C_Arthur

http://www.epistemelinks.com/Main/TextN ... lCode=Scho

If you are brave enough -read his "Studies in pessimism" !!

PD

25
Now, as for asexuality- there are usually two possible reasons for it- a complete lack of sexual interest or a deliberate choice of the Native to completely exclude sexual activities from his/her life (monks for instance but, on occasions, scientists too- Nikola Tesla allegedly said that sexual life is a waste of time ).
But, at this point, I have to ask you if you'd feel comfortable if we opened another thread for this topic?
One could be straight, bisexual, homosexual, or asexual. These are all sexual orientations. I hope this does not deviate from the opening post. To the opening poster - if it does, please let me know.

I had read Deb's article last yr, thanks for reminding me. The article briefly mentions "impotence," but there is a focus on sexual prowess. I think this quote here from Ptolemy is what most astrologers assume when they read my chart in particular (Cardan has a similar aphorism):
in the case of females... should Venus be conjoined or configurated with Mars alone, she will render women licentious and lustful.
Besides being closely joined with Mars in Aries, above the horizon in a day chart, Venus is also oriental, by the way.
Aspects from Jupiter can indicate feminine reluctance whilst Saturn in the 7th is a sign of weakness - perhaps impotence.
To me, I think my ASC/DSC rulers Moon-Saturn square is the main thing that signifies my choices. Saturn is not in the 7th, but rules the 7th, in Virgo in the 3rd (STATIONARY). I also have Uranus in the 5th house.

I have two out of three elder sisters who are also asexual (Saturn in the 3rd = siblings?), and one of them has Saturn in detriment in the 7th.

Jane Austen had Virgo rising, but I honestly have a hard time seeing "virgin" in hers or a lot of asexual people's charts, including my own. You might think sexually "weird," but it would be hard to pinpoint.
Your Venus could be exalted sidereally-tends to give "Exalted love"
No, Venus/Mars is in early Aries in sidereal, vs. late Aries in tropical. Venus in Pisces seem to have a pretty easy time in love generally. I have a coldness that doesn't make sense with all of the fire, and would have to be explained by Moon-Saturn (and maybe the Venus-Pluto opp).

Anyway, sorry to bring my chart into it, but I just know from experience that astrologers always assume that I am sexually promiscuous and conquer every men I want, or something. It is something that is more complex than just my Mars/Venus, to be sure, so I hope that others will be cautious before making such assumptions. I don't really have trouble attracting men, but it is also generally unwanted. I am open-minded that I might meet someone who changes this (I might be sexually connected), but it never really happens, and I kind of doubt at this point that it will.

Marilyn Monroe was another Venus in Aries, and her sexuality was pretty strong outwardly (how people saw her), but it also seems that her own sexual fulfillment might have been lacking.

26
Hello Tanit, this is my very quick look
Tanit wrote: Jane Austen had Virgo rising
Jane Austen has the Moon with Saturn and Sun and Moon are not configured.

It looks like a perfect example.

http://bit.ly/ck5PV7

Another example, Emily Bronte

http://bit.ly/9lCNra

Like you she has Venus with Mars, both opposite to Saturn; Sun and Moon are not configured.

In Cieloeterra they compiled a research about excess and chastity, and they wrote that between the chaste many of them had the same configurations of the excess- Venus, Mars and Saturn in aspect- take from whatever author you prefer the quote, it is copied and pasted from author to author.

In support to this they mention Freud and his theory of sex. If Freud was right I don't know, they just took several birth charts of caste people and followed Ptolemy and hellenistic astrologers' indications.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

27
Jane Austen has the Moon with Saturn
Thanks for your input, Margherita! Oh, yes, I had forgotten that she had the Moon/Saturn conjunction. Austen also has an ASC/DSC ruler opposition, with the ASC ruler rejecting the DSC ruler, in a sign of its detriment (Mercury especially rejects Jupiter there).
Sun and Moon are not configured.
My Moon/Sun are in aversion too. I see in your blog you note this here:
For this reason in a geniture we should consider if the Moon beholds the Sun because if so the native will marry, but if they are inconjunct or the Moon is in her synod with the Sun, especially if she is witnessed by Saturn ? in this case she provides the native with a stone heart- the gentle author of this blog sadly knows this quite well.
I guess this answers a lot... Like me, my asexual sisters also have Moon/Sun in aversion and Moon in aspect with Saturn. One has a Moon-Saturn square (with Saturn in the 7th in detriment), like me, the other a trine (with Saturn in the 1st in detriment). They are less open-minded than I am though, and I think the angular detrimented Saturn might have something to do with it.