I was wondering what people's views were on whether sexual orientation has an astrological signature in the chart?

(Please redirect me to another thread if this has come up before somewhere else)

I have never seen anything that convinced me of this but I cannot claim to have given the subject that much study.

There is an increasing amount of evidence that sexual orientation is caused by genetic and hormonal factors in the womb. If its not primarily related to socialization (as old psychoanalysis claimed) surely like gender you cannot determine this from the chart?

I would be interested in hearing your views. I would especially like to hear from those who disagree with me and have evidence collected from natal work to show a link to sexual orientation.

Thanks

Mark

I've never studied the subject but in Tetrabiblos IV.5 (Of Marriage) mentions several sexual preferences for several planetary positions.

I remember that the astrologer Wim van Dam wrote a book on astrology and homosexuality. When I googled for his (English version of his) book I found this article. http://www.aplaceinspace.net/Pages/PCla ... hobia.html
Perhaps here's some significant info.

Eddy wrote:I've never studied the subject but in Tetrabiblos IV.5 (Of Marriage) mentions several sexual preferences for several planetary positions.

I remember that the astrologer Wim van Dam wrote a book on astrology and homosexuality. When I googled for his (English version of his) book I found this article. http://www.aplaceinspace.net/Pages/PCla ... hobia.html
Perhaps here's some significant info.

A better indication is Ptolemy chapter about of sickness of the body.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb63.htm

Maybe I already discussed this thread with you, now I don't remember well.
Or Centiloquium aphorism n.71, which gives the gist of Ptolemy thought

71. In men's nativities, when both the Sun and Moon shall be in masculine signs, their actions shall appear according to the nature thereof: but in the nativities of women, these very actions are augmented. Judge the same (Our guest misspelled fame for same, I put the right "s") thing of Mars and Venus, for being matutine, they incline to be more manly; but vespertine they are effeminate.

In men you should consider if Lights are in masculine signs and quadrants; Mars and Venus the same, especially according their heliacal phase.

If most of these factors are in feminine sectors, you should have any input.

Then there are some moist stars- mentioned in the same chapter called the horrida sidera, which are mentioned in the same chapter, small stars put in a discomposed way in the sky (I don't have the English word here) that look like passions in a discomposed soul.

margherita

Hi Margherita,

I am not questioning that there are traditional sources claiming this. For example Manilius is riddled with supposed astrological signatures. What I am questioning is these assumptions in traditional astrology itself. Do these ideas really reflect reality in charts you have examined?

As I said this is not a topic I claim to be very knowledgeable about.However, I remain sceptical that these traditional associations really work. I would hope that most astrologers in the west would no longer regard homosexuality as a 'disease of the mind' in the way Ptolemy did. Indeed that outlook would be quite offensive to most people.

Does anyone have any natal examples they would like to cite?

I do think certain sexual proclivities such as sado-masochism do have certain characteristics. Its just sexual orientation I wonder about.

Mark

MarkC wrote: Does anyone have any natal examples they would like to cite?

I do think certain sexual proclivities such as sado-masochism do have certain characteristics. Its just sexual orientation I wonder about.

Mark

I was not talking about sado-maso.
And yes, I saw many examples of Ptolemy/Centiloquium list. In CieloeTerra they had a group studying several different orientation cases and comparing them with traditional literature.

They did not publish their work as much of the valuable studies , but I have it, for example.

Then obviouly I cannot say to you that all cases can be reduced to this. For example here recently we had a case of the former Governor of Lazio, who should resign because there was a video of his meeting with transexuals. I became mad to find something in his chart.
I believe it's difficult because if we don't know the native, we don't know which reasons he has, to behave like this.
For me, in that case it was just for boredom which always accompanies people in power. They don't know what they can invent to make their life more difficult

Still I would say that many examples fit.

margherita

Hi Margherita,

I think this aphorism from the Fruit of Ptolemy, which seems to have been forged by a certain A?mad ibn ad-D?ya in the 10th century, is somewhat based on the description of childbirth by Dorotheus (now available as chapter 3 in book I of the ?Umar version) as it was utilized later by Rhetorius and M?sh??all?h. It runs:

the ?Umar Dorotheus wrote:If a woman gives birth, if the native is a male and you find the Sun and the Moon and the ascendant in male signs, then the native of his birth escapes what frightens him, and trouble does not strike his mother nor does misfortune. If the native is female and you find the Sun and the Moon in female signs and the ascendant also a female sign, [it happens] similarly; and so speak about the goodness of her giving birth and of her deliverance. But if it is contrary to what I say it indicates misery and death, then especially when you find Saturn, [who is] difficult [and] slow, in a cardine [which is] a female sign because it is more intense for its power with respect to evil and misfortune of birth. If you find Mars in a cardine, and especially in a female sign, say that the woman will give birth heedless of what is happening, and giving birth will not be unbearable for her because Mars begins to cut, and sometimes [the time] comes upon her in the bath or on the road or like this.

While the issue here is not really the sexual orientation of the native, it brings to the game some factors which can make planets more masculine or feminine. These are summarized in the first chapter of the book that remains from Rhetorius: morning and evening phases, halves of the zodiac, signs and quadrants. These may be applicable to discern the masculine and feminine nature of a native, as Ibn ad-D?ya (perhaps depending on Ab? Ma?shar) reports.

I was not talking about sado-maso

.

Neither was I really. I was just contrasting it to homosexuality.

And yes, I saw many examples of Ptolemy/Centiloquium list. In CieloeTerra they had a group studying several different orientation cases and comparing them with traditional literature. They did not publish their work as much of the valuable studies , but I have it, for example.

I would be interested in finding out more about this research. This is certainly the kind of topic that deserves proper research rather just a few personal anecdotes. Problem is a lot of modern researchers would ignore the kind of traditional indicators you refer to.

Mark

Hello,

@Osthanes

Osthanes wrote:Hi Margherita,

I think this aphorism from the Fruit of Ptolemy, which seems to have been forged by a certain A?mad ibn ad-D?ya in the 10th century, is somewhat based on the description of childbirth by Dorotheus.

Reading it I would understand that it states the same as Ptolemy BUT I checked my comment to Centiloquium by Morin de Villefranche (I have the Italian translation) and he says something like that, to be honest I don't really understand if he agrees with you or not- he mentions sex gender of the native too.
Generally I understand Italian, but I'm afraid not Morin translation...

Anyway it makes not difference, because the required factors are the same, I believe.


@ Mark

Problem is a lot of modern researchers would ignore the kind of traditional indicators you refer to.

I agree. I recently saw a case where from Ptolemy list I would say too much feminine qualities which signifies according Ptolemy:

And, if Venus be femininely posited, women will be lustful and licentious: but, if Mars be posited femininely, they will then put their desires in practice shamelessly and publicly.

and this was the case in fact.

An astrologer without knowing this text, would not know where fishing, but I took 2 seconds...

margherita

MarkC . You glance in horoscopes of monks of papal Catholic belief. You there will understand that search. There there are also instructions on pedophilia too.
You that think, now ???????? adhere? I think it there never was, as it is necessary to be the person and to reject all material desires for now the Spirit Sacred has not condescended on the individual of this world, it remains in desires of a demonic level of development. Therefore Daddies and Kings died of an itch and other illnesses of cleanliness of a body??? It because it is necessary to clean at first thoughts, and absence of cleanliness of thoughts automatically cleans a body, as external the thought form. There will be no meat, will cease to accept a cord in darkness for a snake. Will not clean a teeth as from it they perish faster, will not be pedophiles and, it is pederast bible Sodom and Gomorrah of Jews. It at this level of development the man's individual living at mind level submits and idolises the individual below itself on development. ?? about matriarchy I speak, after all the woman is a lump of emotions, and mind already though also the primitive dual tool of perception of this world, but nevertheless not so intermediate emotion between an animal an instinct and mind concerns the bottom astral, and??? So those societies where the lowest form of an animal of times progresses ?, and concern representatives of the worlds similar to this society. Here respected MarkC if you understand what planet corrects what close and ?????????? it with sexless planets then you and receive an indicator of this bottom demonic level of development. You look at things in a matter spiritual eyes then you will see who there is who? Where Arias, and where an animal???

Hi Mark. I have had many gay clients and have never seen anything strikingly different in their charts, compared to those of reportedly straight people. As you say, one can see predilections toward certain behaviors within relationship, but these apply equally (as nearly as I can tell) to gay and straight people - to humans, in other words!

In my view, references in the traditional literature to masculine and feminine emphases are not helpful here. I think that the terms "feminine" and "masculine" refer to aspects/attitudes of the psyche that precede sexuality and are not indices of gender preference, per se. I've never seen any studies on the subject, but I would be very surprised if anyone were able to determine gender preference in a random selection of charts.

Astraea wrote: but I would be very surprised if anyone were able to determine gender preference in a random selection of charts.

I saw the opposite.
Different charts divided by groups of sexual behaviour - from excess to chastity under the light of Ptolemy and hellenistic astrologers.

For me it works.

If we cannot see this from a chart, it because blindly - without not knowing anything of the native we cannot see temperament or the quality of the soul or sickness, because there are many variables and there is something in the native which is more than an astro chart.
margherita

Gjiada wrote:...there are many variables and there is something in the native which is more than an astro chart.

I quite agree with this. Not having examined the materials you reference, I can't comment on anything but my own experience - and it has always seemed to me that this "something in the native which is more than the astro chart" precedes and even directs, in some mysterious way, delineation. I think it is beyond sexuality and gender preference. But I realize that this is just one person's viewpoint.