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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why this should be important? Morin was already in touch with people born in the Southern hemisphere and like him many Italian astrologers... You would be surprised to know how many contacts were between New World and the Old Europe since the discovery of America.
Technologies and information went very fast even in the past- even without considering Great Britain or her ex-colonies


Your falling into the trap of linking the 'New World' with the southern hemisphere! Remember, all of North America, Central America, the Caribbean, and settlements such as Colombia and Venezuala were in the northern hemisphere.

However, the Portugese, and Spanish settlements of places like Brazil, Peru, Chile, Argentina obviously must have had an impact on the intellectual climate in Europe. I am not denying that.

In the modern world you simply have to look at this. We are talking about most of South America, southern Africa, Indonesia, Pacific islands, and Australia and New Zealand.

Incidentally. here is a link sumarising countries in the southern hemisphere. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Hemisphere

Apparently, the population of the southern hemisphere is around 10-12% of the global total. This means the southern hemisphere population is approximately 680 million-820 million. It therefore, probably exceeds the population of Europe.

The epicentre of the Tsunami of December 2004 was very close to the Equator. 3'0 North I believe. What would you have done if the Tsunami had occured a few degrees south of this? You surely wouldn't ignore such a chart just because it was south of the equator?
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Last edited by Mark on Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your falling into the trap of linking the New World with the southern hemisphere! Remember, all of North America, Central America, the Caribbean, and settlements such as Colombia and Venezuala were in the northern hemisphere.


I know where is California, obviously.
I just meant that luckily I don't have many opportunities to cast Southern charts- because we don't know so many famous people coming from Australia or other regions in the Southern hemisphere.
Maybe some South American soccer champions...

margherita
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Eddy



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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

I'm not sure if I understand where you don't follow that part you quoted. In several articles and books on the history of Babylonian astrology I've read that first there was the perception of Sun, Moon, planets and stars moving along 'paths' of Ea, Anu and Enlil, lowest, middle and highest respectively. These paths are equator oriented, only later the ecliptic was going to be used as reference. This occurred somewhere between 700 and 600 BC. If the exaltations where meant to be related to the lowest, middle and highest places then the original meaning would be equatorial. I still agree with your reply of the last post with the origin of the symbolism related to the constellations where the Sun happened to be during the seasons but as I understand it the notition of positioning of planets must have gone like "Moon was in the path of Enlil close to this or that star, let's say Castor/Pollux in the (constellation) Gemini".

Deb wrote:
The point about the ecliptic is that it is fixed upon the Sun’s alternating height as it progresses throughout the solar year, and so it shows the seasonal meaning implicitly
That last word "implicitly" is essential. The cause of the seasons is by the height of the Sun. Related to the height is always a certain point on the ecliptic, but to me that's secondary. With Sun in 0°Cancer we know that Summer begins (on Northern hemisphere latitudes in the temperate zone), but inherent to this position is the fact that the Sun is 23,5° north of the celestial equator, hence the days are longest and the height is highest and hence the period is going to be warm.

However, with the Moon and planets there is another thing. Since they have latitude the highest position above the equator and thus the longest period above the horizon doesn't always coincide with 0° Cancer. Pluto gives the worst results, if I may quote myself:
Quote:
When a planet has a big inclination (towards the ecliptic) like Pluto (17°) the differences can be huge. Around 1914 Pluto was just entering Cancer but had a declination of just +18°. only to reach maximum of less than +24° some 30 years later, while Pluto was in 10 Leo.
,from this thread, where maximum declinations were discussed. But also the Moon plays such games with us. With an inclination of 5° to the ecliptic the highest place of the Moon will be either somewhere in Gemini or in Cancer. The extremes will occur when the North Node of the Moon is close to the solstices as is these years.

Here's an example:
I used http://www.ephemeris.com/goto.php for the calculations.

This is when the Moon enters Cancer:

Date/Time: 2011.06.30 16:13:00 UTC (GMT - Delta T), JD = 2455743.175694
Sidereal Time: 10:46:32, Delta T = 70.4 seconds
Geocentric positions

Phase of Moon: 0.977 (0.000=New; 0.250=First 1/4; 0.500=Full; 0.750=Last 1/4)

Planet Longitude Latitude Right Asc. Declination
Sun 08 Cnc 32'37" - 0°00'00" 06:37:12 23°09'43"
Moon 00 Cnc 00'08" - 0°36'01" 06:00:01 22°50'14"
Moon's Node 23 Sgr 28'14"R 0°00'00" 17:31:33 -23°16'35"

But when you look at this, you see that the Moon is at her highest when around 18° Gemini.

Date/Time: 2011.06.29 17:30:00 UTC (GMT - Delta T), JD = 2455742.229167
Sidereal Time: 11:59:48, Delta T = 70.4 seconds
Geocentric positions

Phase of Moon: 0.945 (0.000=New; 0.250=First 1/4; 0.500=Full; 0.750=Last 1/4)

Planet Longitude Latitude Right Asc. Declination
Sun 07 Cnc 38'26" - 0°00'00" 06:33:16 23°13'01"
Moon 17 Gem 42'00" 0°31'52" 05:06:19 23°23'50"
Moon's Node 23 Sgr 28'15" 0°00'00" 17:31:33 -23°16'35"

This all comes close to the question of how astrology works. If it is by height then the concept of a 'point' on the ecliptic where the planets are highed becomes rather blurred. For the Moon it osculates between 18° Gemini and 12° Cancer. Now we know that the heat of the planets can impossibly affect the temperatures like the Sun does, this will be difficult to accept.

Another possibility is letting the Sun being the leading principle and treat the planets as having always 0° latitude. Could be but this still leaves us with the problem of the different climates not only between North and South hemisphere but also equatorial and polar etc.

In that case I would state that if a seasonal meaning of the zodiac is essential, this should give a different meaning for every place on Earth according to the local circumstances. I'm not sure about this and won't reject it at first hand, I still would find it better than using the same meanings everywhere.

Quote:
For example – the Mars-Saturn sextile: what does this mathematical relationship mean purely in its own terms, without any of the symbolic loadings of dignities and debilities? That is one area where I see astrological symbolism potentially standing in the way of an enhanced understanding of pure celestial effect.
One problem with just using the planets and aspects is that it's more difficult to give it a meaning. What I've usually done in natal charts and what I'm trying now with weather is not to try to fill in the meaning but trying to discover the meaning of the natal planets through transits. It's still difficult though but this 'loose' approach gives a broad 'discretionary power' (using a legal term here). The sextile may not be entirely good but sometimes unpleasant. This might seem pure guesswork but same could be said of the use of signs. A square aspect in certain signs could be worse through the positions of the planets according to rulerships. However looking the position in the terms could make it less worse again. When for example an astrologer sees this difficult aspect confirmed in some difficult experiences in life of the owner of the chart, I think the astrologer will be less inclined to mention the mitigating terms. If the experiences wouldn't be that bad then I think the astrologer will attribute this to the mitigating effect of the terms. Another approach but still a kind of discretionary space and according to other thís would be seen as the guesswork. When I read Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos book I, I get the impression that he wasn't really enthusiast about the terms (and other divisions of the signs). About the sextile, Kepler related the trine to the fifth
(in music) and the sextile to the fifth plus an octave but also to the (major?) third. Fifths (and thirds) are pleasant sounds in music and hence the mild effect of the sextile. If I think about the weather of these weeks the cold is there but the weather is quite stable, perhaps this is due to the sextile, in contrast with December's semi-square.

Gjiada wrote:
MarkC wrote:
Did they both propose reversing signs though? I thought one of them suggested reversing dignities instead?


It's the same. I can call the Libra the zodiacal sign following the Spring Equinox or say that Aries is the house of Venus and Saturn.


I agree with Margherita. It's the same, unless special meaning is to be given to the pictoral signs; like noble lions as kings, aggressive rams willing to fight with their horns, social twins etc. Although some astrologers give importance to the pictures, I think that there are many other astrologers that don't use the signs this way and that they are just names.

_______________

Now I see that just like yesterday two hours have passed writing this post, I'll have to excuse myself because I have to spend more time on studying. Perhaps I'll have more time in the weekends or I'll write shorter posts during the week. But probably then I'm afraid of omitting essential things, and thinking over these costs me lots of time. I'm sorry, because this is a very interesting discussion, but I feel that I have to spend less time on the forum.

So in short how I personally see the problem:
- The symbolical astrology and natural astrology meaning of the signs in the zodiac (both the sidereal and tropical) have their origin in the seasons;
- While I don't exclude any seasonal effect, I think that those meanings should thus be different at different locations;
- Using the equinoxes as 'nodes' which can receive aspects by planets would solve a lot of these technical problems. However I realise that the pure geometrical approach would turn the whole in a skeleton, a body stripped of its flesh. And believe me, constantly thinking with pure geometry in the head sometimes can drive me a bit crazy.

I too need some 'fillings', that's why I feel sympathy for the second option, and probably mixing it with the third option.
Baking cakes with similar shapes
local products, trying the lucks,
millet in Italy, with herbs from Toscany,
or with oats in Scotland, and a nice shot of blend.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree with Margherita. It's the same, unless special meaning is to be given to the pictoral signs; like noble lions as kings, aggressive rams willing to fight with their horns, social twins etc. Although some astrologers give importance to the pictures, I think that there are many other astrologers that don't use the signs this way and that they are just names.


I hate to be stubborn here ( who me?) but I still disagree with you both because I believe you are neglecting some of the practical implications here.

Margherita stated:
Quote:
I can call the Libra the zodiacal sign following the Spring Equinox or say that Aries is the house of Venus and Saturn


You seem to be assuming all the dignities are reversed in both approaches? Not everyone advocating a reversal of dignities supports this. For example, Maurice McCann only supports this for the domicile rulerships not the exaltations or minor dignities.

So in McCann's proposed system rulership/detriment dignities are reversed but not exaltations etc. So in a chart for Sydney, Australia which has Sun in Aquarius and Moon in Taurus McCann suggests the Sun would be in its sign of rulership while the Moon would still be exalted in Taurus.

A key issue is what we decide to do with the exaltations and minor dignities. In a simple reversal of signs there is no disconnection between traditional symbolism of the signs or planets. When you reverse dignities you have the challenge of the Moon being in its sign of rulership in Capricorn or the Sun being in its sign of rulership in Aquarius. This contradicts the traditional meaning of the signs and planets in a way that reversing the signs does not. While this might seem inconsequential to some it does challenge the way most astrologers practically work today.

Moreover, while reversing all dignities makes sense in a reversed chart it is less clear cut in a chart where just the dignities are changed. As noted above one can make a strong case ( ala Ptolemy), for the link between the domicile rulerships and the seasonal cycles in the southern hemisphere. However, it is much less axiomatic that this seasonal difference should justify a change of exaltation and rulers and minor dignities. So I really do think there are some key differences that you are both missing between reversed signs and dignities.

Irrespective of all this though you have what I see as the total confusion of equatoriial charts to resolve. Lets say I am born in Nairobi, Kenya which has a latitude of 1 25 South or Quito in Ecuador, which has a latitude of 00°15'South. Does this mean the effects of the relevant zodiac sign or dignity is weaker in these places because of the less distinct seasons due to solar declination? Surely this is major theoretical and practical problem for anyone advocating a reversal of signs or dignities? For example, if you have Venus in Taurus from either of these locations in a chart with reversed signs should this be regarded as weaker in influence than a chart outside the equator? The problem of equatorial charts is the killer argument against such suggestions as I see it.
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PFN



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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that what we need is a philosofical answer rather than a thecnical one. And so far, I feel both frontiers failed to deliver.
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dr. farr



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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, I do not consider that there is an essential (ie, fundamental) connection between signs and the seasons, except of a cultural historical nature where ancient peoples assigned the seasons to the qualities of the various signs. After studying the various works on the subject of constellations and signs (one of which works is cited in this thread) I also (personally) remain completely unconvinced that the signs arose out of the constellational imaginings of certain ancient cultures.

If we consider the humoral (elemental) affinities of the signs of the equinoxes and solstices, and then compare these to the humoral qualities of each season they supposedly initiate, we find no resemblance:
+in all of the historical Western (4 element) humoral models, the following allocations are to be found:
-Spring: moist + warm (Air)
-Summer: dry + warm (Fire)
-Autumn: dry + cool (Earth)
-Winter: moist + cool (Water)
Now, what are the humoral qualities associated with the relevant signs?
-Aries ("Spring" equinox): Fire = dry + warm
-Cancer ("Summer" solstice): Water = moist + cold
-Libra ("Autumnal" equinox): Air = moist + warm
-Capricorn ("Winter" solstice): Earth = dry + cold
There is virtually no elemental correlations of these signs and the "seasons" they are allegedly connected with.
-As a note of interest, when we look at sign/element/season allocations in the Southern hemisphere, we actually do find 2 connections:
-Winter, ushered in with the Cancer solstice (sign and humoral quality of season match)
-Spring, ushered in with Libra equinox (sign and humoral quality of season match)
...so, did the signs actually originate (in pre-history) in the Southern hemisphere?? Well, I doubt this and I believe these 2 Southern hemisphere sign/element/season affinities are merely co-incidental.

I do not believe we may simply dismiss the elemental allocations: we find them to be integral in all the traditionally established systems of astrology (and "quasi-astrology"): Western, Vedic, Chinese (the latter actually composed of a number of varying systems/ models of macrocosmic analysis)

As I mentioned above, I personally (at least as of this time) consider the signs to be meaningful divisions of the varying qualities of the pleroma of space, and as such are "generals"; and therefore not themselves being subject to the particular effects (such as weather/seasons) occuring "in their wake".

+PS: it could just be that this whole matter of macrocosmic analysis-"astrology"-whether Western, Vedic, or the various Chinese models, Mahabote, etc, etc,-is a Whole System model, like, for example, Ayurvedic Medicine, Chinese Medicine/Acupuncture, Unani-Tibb, Homeopathy, traditional Western herbalism, and so on. Since the efficacy -in terms of practical results-of Whole System models does not depend upon the objective/reductionist/scientific "truth" of the components of the model, but depends rather upon the internal consistency of the latter, it would make no difference in obtaining reliable, consistent practical results how well or how poorly the "givens" of, say, traditional Western astrology, correspond to objective scientific "reality" in regard to various objective astrophysical phenomena (as understood by astronomers) or to the facts and ramifications of spherical geometry (as understood by mathematicians) If Western "astrology" actually is a Whole System model, this might account for the demonstrated FACT that its various applications "work" perfectly well whether done in London, Capetown, Thule or Tierra del Fuego.

At the same time, I also personally believe that there IS an objective "material" element involved, perhaps involving the manner in which subtle cosmic qualities transduce to become "influences" on the field of the earth and its creatures. The alchemist Roger Bacon started to think along these lines, followed by John Dee, ultimating in the work of Kepler, and attempts in this direction have continued even to the present time, although not necessarily in conscious connection with the discipline we refer to as "astrology". Ideas/theories/facts regarding resonance, particle entaglement, zero point, the "intelligent aether", might be somewhat useful sources of fertile ideas for US, and I encourage our Skyscript member Eddy (and others looking for a "physical" basis of macrocosmic influences) to continue their thinking, experiments and experiences along thses lines. Please keep us informed of your insights!
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning Mark, Eddy (please don't study too much and talk with us) and all

MarkC wrote:

So in McCann's proposed system rulership/detriment dignities are reversed but not exaltations etc. So in a chart for Sydney, Australia which has Sun in Aquarius and Moon in Taurus McCann suggests the Sun would be in its sign of rulership while the Moon would still be exalted in Taurus.

A key issue is what we decide to do with the exaltations and minor dignities. In a simple reversal of signs there is no disconnection between traditional symbolism of the signs or planets. When you reverse dignities you have the challenge of the Moon being in its sign of rulership in Capricorn or the Sun being in its sign of rulership in Aquarius. This contradicts the traditional meaning of the signs and planets in a way that reversing the signs does not..



This is not true, especially for exaltations.

Because exaltations depend on the Sun (as 99,9% of astrology in Ptolemy) and seasons:

THAT which is termed the exaltation of the planets is considered by the following rules:

The Sun on his entrance into Aries is then passing into the higher and more northern semicircle; but, on his entrance into Libra, into the more southern and lower one: his exaltation, therefore, is determined to be in Aries, as, when present in that sign, he begins to lengthen the days, and the influence of his heating nature increases at the same time. His fall is placed in Libra, for the converse reasons.

Saturn on the contrary, in order to preserve his station opposite to the Sun, in this respect, as well as in regard to their respective houses, obtains his exaltation in Libra, and his fall in Aries: since, in all cases, the increase of heat must be attended by a diminution of cold, and the increase of cold by a diminution of heat.


and so on...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/ptb25.htm

So because in Southern hemisphere seasons are reversed we should reverse exaltations too.

And the same for triplicities because they depend on the domicile of planets, for example Fire triplicity is ruled by Sun (from Aries) and Jupiter (from Sagittarius).

So we can have the doubt just for terms and decans.

At this point is it not obvious preserve the dignity table as we know, trying to change the less we can? This was the Renaissance thought - even if with different methods, reversing in the Italian astrologers, not reversing in the French one.

margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Because exaltations depend on the Sun (as 99,9% of astrology in Ptolemy) and seasons:

THAT which is termed the exaltation of the planets is considered by the following rules:

The Sun on his entrance into Aries is then passing into the higher and more northern semicircle; but, on his entrance into Libra, into the more southern and lower one: his exaltation, therefore, is determined to be in Aries, as, when present in that sign, he begins to lengthen the days, and the influence of his heating nature increases at the same time. His fall is placed in Libra, for the converse reasons.

Saturn on the contrary, in order to preserve his station opposite to the Sun, in this respect, as well as in regard to their respective houses, obtains his exaltation in Libra, and his fall in Aries: since, in all cases, the increase of heat must be attended by a diminution of cold, and the increase of cold by a diminution of heat.

and so on...

So because in Southern hemisphere seasons are reversed we should reverse exaltations too


Hi Margherita,

I suppose if you see Ptolemy as the final arbiter in every astrological discussion that is a reasonable position to adopt. Ptolemy always seeks to find a rational naturalistic solution to any question. Ptolemy therefore applies Aristotlean logic to this issue like everything else. Not least because the exaltations were possibly already a mystery in his time.

However, I note that many hellenistic astrologers are more attracted to the aspect connections in the Thema Mundi chart to explain the exaltations.

Unless we take the radical stance that the exaltations were entirely a Greek creation we surely have to refer back to earlier Mesopotamian sources to answer the question of what their original basis was. This in itself is a controversial subject. I am aware that some Mesopotamian scholars do consider it possible that they had a seasonal basis. However, this is merely a hypothesis rather than an established fact.

Moreover at the risk of becoming a total bore on this point I still insist that a reversed zodiac (with the dignities following suit) is fundamentally different from just reversing all dignities (but not zodiac). In a reversed zodiac the Sun still rules Leo and Mars rules Scorpio. When you reverse dignities ( but not zodiac) we have the Sun ruling Aquarius and Mars ruling Taurus. In a southern hemisphere chart with reversed dignities (but not the zodiac) you fundamentally change the relationship between signs and planets. How are we to understand the nature of Taurus ruled by Mars or Venus ruling Aries? I accept you dont advocate this approach yourself as you seem to favour a straightforward switchover of zodiac and dignities. As is the norm I am sure you will claim it is not your opinion but simply following Ptolemy!
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margherita



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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good evening Mark,

Quote:

Hi Margherita,

I suppose if you see Ptolemy as the final arbiter in every astrological discussion that is a reasonable position to adopt. Ptolemy always seeks to find a rational naturalistic solution to any question. Ptolemy therefore applies Aristotlean logic to this issue like everything else. Not least because the exaltations were possibly already a mystery in his time.


About Ptolemy I know there is the old debate which is better Ptolemy or other hellenistic astrologers?
I don't have any answer to this.

What it is sure that astrology was so much linked with Ptolemy version of Aristotle, that when Aristotle was put in discussion, astrology died.

But I don't have any particular preference.
Just it's easier to find some astrological input about the way to use some determinate rules in whatever Tetrabiblos comment (Lilly included) than in other texts.

We have several Greek texts translated now, but what a line of explication? At least when we take into consideration Ptolemy we can trust on the notes of astrologers like Argoli and Giuntini and Cardano and Lilly and Morin....

The point is not what Ptolemy writes but that the greatest minds of Renaissance explained and gave examples of him, not about the rest . About the rest we know very little.

For me I take everywhere, I consider different strategies when I read a charts.


Quote:
Moreover at the risk of becoming a total bore on this point I still insist that a reversed zodiac (with the dignities following suit) is fundamentally different from just reversing all dignities (but not zodiac). In a reversed zodiac the Sun still rules Leo and Mars rules Scorpio. When you reverse dignities ( but not zodiac) we have the Sun ruling Aquarius and Mars ruling Taurus. In a southern hemisphere chart with reversed dignities (but not the zodiac) you fundamentally change the relationship between signs and planets. How are we to understand the nature of Taurus ruled by Mars or Venus ruling Aries?


A reversed zodiac means that if you are born on the 15th August, at 6 AM signifies having the Sun in the 12h house in Aquarius because you are in the midst of winter.
So your Sun will be in detriment and ruled by Saturn. Which difference if we call Leo but then say that the reversed Leo is ruled by Saturn and it is the detriment of the Sun?
It's exactly the same.


Quote:
I accept you dont advocate this approach yourself as you seem to favour a straightforward switchover of zodiac and dignities. As is the norm I am sure you will claim it is not your opinion but simply following Ptolemy!

I learned I should not trust even people I was sure to know very well, so I don't trust nobody, especially people I never met like Ptolemy Smile

For me, the main point is that astrology is a cultural product of a certain area of the world, and adapting in other places is very difficult.
There are many contradictions and many open problems, and I don't think we can have an easy answer.

margherita
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Eddy



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Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:
Good morning Mark, Eddy (please don't study too much and talk with us) and all
Ok Margherita, after my Wednesday training I usually don't study anyway.


Mark wrote:
I hate to be stubborn here ( who me?) but I still disagree with you both because I believe you are neglecting some of the practical implications here.
No problem with stubbornness Mark, I'm stubborn too, but only when I'm right Tongue Out .
I don't get this idea of McCann. I'd say either everything is flipped over or nothing. Why not the exaltations? On page 139-140 in this print version of Gavin White's 'Babylonian Star-Lore', he clearly relates Jupiter's exaltation with his benevolence and royal character to the northernmost (declination) position of the ecliptic. Malevolent Mars get's the southernmost position. So to get the same symbolism in Australia, the exaltations too should be reversed.

The Babylonian symbolism is much more concerned with height than with the seasonal view of Ptolemy. In the thread I referred to in an earlier post I also believe in another symbolic explanation than Ptolemy's seasons approach. If I may quote myself again:
Quote:
The seven ‘lights’ in this order, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn was one of several ideas of orders of planets. This one (moon being closest to earth) was called the ‘Egyptian’ order. There was also a version with Mercury and Venus swapped. The more known ‘Chaldean’ order was, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. (Jim Tester, “A History of Western Astrology p.166). I believe that there are some links of the Egyptian (rulerships) order with some other ancient Greek thoughts. In Richard Hinckley Allen’s “Star Names, Their Lore and Meaning”, Cancer “according to Chaldean and Platonist philosophy, it was the supposed Gate of Men through which souls descended from heaven into human bodies p. 107. The opposed sign Capricornus was the “Gate of the gods” through wich the souls returned after death, p.136.
I was being a bit brief in this summarized version of an earlier post, but I meant to say that I believe that the symbolism of the ascent of the soul of man in and after life is depicted through the rulerships from Cancer to Capricorn. The descent is depicted in the rulerships from aquarius to Moon again. This is just my assumption (I have no proof) but it could be related to the mysterycults of two millennia ago in which reincarnation also played a role. The ascending soul but returning to Earth because still being 'attached' to the worldly things. If this is true then the exaltations are also related to 'highest' and 'lowest' and thus should also reverse in Australia.

This still leaves us with the mess that would occur in the tropics if the reversing theory should be applied. Finally a tropics problem, usually the pole problem is discussed in astrology, but it has been cold long enough huh?

Dr. Farr's points on the elements is also interesting. Ptolemy used the Moist-Hot-Dry-Cold sequence to which Air-Fire-Earth-Water can be related.
The usual order is indeed a bit strange. Kepler also mentioned this"

Kepler wrote:
4-7 I do not wish to be understood to have said that I wanted to abandon this ancient division [i.e. the Zodiac]; for I did add, that one must of necessity keep it for the sake of the memory. Much less did I attack it as aesthetically displeasing, or as cumbersome; but rather, I wished to express this idea: Although nature prepared the way for the division, it was human reason alone that created it, and in such a way that it always commenced from a certain starting point; it also did not have to refer to the natural properties that the signs are supposed to distinguish from each other. Although the sun, as it moves through the twelve signs, changes the seasons on earth according to the four qualities, this does not take place in that sequence [which was created by the astrologers]...
(Response to Dr. Röslin ..., Op. cit., 1609)
(I made part of the text bold)
Patrice Guinard's article http://cura.free.fr/25avazod.html mentions that there were two systems for the four systems in relations to the elements. First the Mesopotamian, the one mentioned above and used by Ptolemy), and the Egyptian. Fire-Water-Air-Earth. These correspond with the elements of the cardinal signs. I'm not sure when the division over the signs took place but on p. 47 of Jim Tester's 'A History of Western Astrology', here, Vettius Valens is mentioned of doing this. It seems that nature and physics were made symbolical, but in those days there wasn't really that difference. Nowadays it's entirely symbolical, perhaps humans have adapted to it (see Kepler quote in post of 14 february 12:25PM).

Maybe I'm just a maladjusted non-conformist for not adapting, but now perhaps there are maybe more people who might feel for abandoning this use of signs, come one guys, just kicking out a dozen signs with their rulerships and exaltations can't be that bad, dare to take that step, look at all the advantages, no hemisphere problems, no equatorial troubles, what could one desire more? Twisted Evil Wink
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margherita



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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning

Eddy wrote:
In Richard Hinckley Allen’s “Star Names, Their Lore and Meaning”, Cancer “according to Chaldean and Platonist philosophy, it was the supposed Gate of Men through which souls descended from heaven into human bodies p. 107. The opposed sign Capricornus was the “Gate of the gods” through wich the souls returned after death, p.136.


the famous Gates..Homer, Odyssey XIII

"Now there is in Ithaca a haven of the old merman Phorcys, which lies between two points that break the line of the sea and shut the harbour in. These shelter it from the storms of wind and sea that rage outside, so that, when once within it, a ship may lie without being even moored. At the head of this harbour there is a large olive tree, and at no distance a fine overarching cavern sacred to the nymphs who are called Naiads. There are mixing-bowls within it and wine-jars of stone, and the bees hive there. Moreover, there are great looms of stone on which the nymphs weave their robes of sea purple- very curious to see- and at all times there is water within it. It has two entrances, one facing North by which mortals can go down into the cave, while the other comes from the South and is more mysterious; mortals cannot possibly get in by it, it is the way taken by the gods."

Yes, they were obviously linked with solstices and in Rome in January was celebrated Janus, the enigmatic God of the Doors ianua, ae- from which the month takes the name.

It's difficult putting aside seasons when we consider ancients' ways.


Quote:
Maybe I'm just a maladjusted non-conformist for not adapting, but now perhaps there are maybe more people who might feel for abandoning this use of signs, come one guys, just kicking out a dozen signs with their rulerships and exaltations can't be that bad, dare to take that step, look at all the advantages, no hemisphere problems, no equatorial troubles, what could one desire more


No, it's difficult turning upside down the Zodiac, I'm very happy I was born on the shores of Mediterranean sea. Smile

margherita
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eddy, Margherita, Mark, et all

Eddy, it is very difficult to briefly summarise these complex points without either leading to misunderstandings in what we are trying to say, or spending hours of time that we don’t have to spare (and then leaving misunderstandings in what we are trying to say … Smile ). I worry that I spend too much time here too, so I will try to keep this brief even though I have a lot that I want to say …

Going back to the earlier post about the equatorial framework of ancient astrology – let’s assume that the path of Anu is based upon the equator as many scholars say (although the reality is that they are speculating about a path which is not very well understood but known to be loosely around the middle of the extremes), this still does not undermine the value of the ecliptic as a seasonal tool, because this creates the essential underlying framework which needs to be developed first in order for the ecliptic to be traced upon it. I’ll try to explain that better.

Imagine we had to recreate the entire astronomical system. The first task would be to get a relative position of all the visible stars from top to bottom of the sphere. Knowledge of the equator *presents itself*, but not by looking towards the middle regions of the Earth as we do with the eclipic, but by noticing that this whole celestial bowl appears to make a circular turn around a north-south axis everynight, causing the stars to spin around. The equator is not an observed path, but a mathematically derived plane that is based upon being central to the poles. Although the visual observance of the rotation of stars around the poles was used from ancient times, knowledge of the equatorial circle was not as essential to our practical needs as that of the polar axis, and our ability to tell time from the stars was very rough until we were able to develop a good understanding of the ecliptic (time, the calendar, the seasons, are all one).

Quote:
first there was the perception of Sun, Moon, planets and stars moving along lowest, middle and highest respectively. These paths are equator oriented, only later the ecliptic was going to be used as reference.


Although the scholars refer to the 'paths' of Enlil, Anu and Ea, I think it must be misleading to do this. Regions or areas would be better. The region of Enlil goes up to the north pole, Anu covers the middle and Ea, what is known of the South. In my opinion the reason for this alignment is to demonstrate the expression of Anu – the great God- through the Sun. I admit that is speculative (there is a lot of speculation going on in the authoritative texts too, BTW) but what is factual is that the visual observations of the Sun, Moon and planets were based upon the quest to discover the ecliptic because it is not just the path of the Sun, but the centre of movement for the Moon and other planets too.

You mention Pluto, which is the one 'planet' to which the rule doesn’t apply well, but this is why I agree in the demotion of Pluto – it doesn’t fit the usual pattern. In any case, it was of no consequent to ancient observers.

In case I lost you there I'll say it in another way: the attempts to monitor the Moon against the background constellations were also attempts to discover the ecliptic, because the Moon never moves more than 6 degrees above or below it. The Moon's cycle is tied to the ecliptic, just as the cycle of eclipses is tied there too. All of the most important planetary activity - including that of all the visible planets - takes place in this one belt of the sky which (prior to Pluto) the zodiac covered entirely by being defined as a region that extends 8 or 9 degrees from the ecliptic. Above this, the stars do not move around in relation to each other.

That’s why astrology is so much dependent upon the zodiac - because it holds the planetary movements. By comparison, an ‘equatorial’ astrology system is missing out on all of this, being focused on a plane that is only expressive of the movement of the framework.

With regard to the exaltations, at this time what we know about that topic is just enough to generate confusion. But there is a relevant point that I think you are overlooking Eddy. The association with Jupiter with the north, the ‘higher’ region, feeds into the principle that the north, where the Sun culminates in Cancer, was associated with the cooling and fertile north wind; Mars, exalted in the South, in the region of lowest descent in Capricorn, was associated with the hot, burning and destructive south wind. The quality of the wind is seen to be important even in the most ancient astrological references, but the idea of a cooling north wind, or a hot south wind, or a dry east wind / wet west wind, links again to the regional and seasonal origin of astrological signification.

In my opinion it would be impossible to eliminate the seasonal underpinning of astrological symbolism. It wouldn’t only mean an inversion of the zodiac signs or dignities, but a a rehash of planetary symbolism too (much of Saturn’s theme is based on this being the lord of winter, for example).

But I don’t think it is a case of modern astrologers not wishing to deal with the issue. The earlier quotes show that is has been contemplated and philosophically answered already.

Oops I see that this ended up being anything but brief, after all,

Deb


PS - I made a case recently, in a study of the pole stars, that the symbolism of ascent and descent (of the 'gates) was originally applied to the poles themselves, later associated with the corresponding zodiac points. I don't want to go into the full argument of that but you can consider how Enlil's governorship of the region up to the north pole readily associates with Jupiter's exaltation in Cancer.
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In case I lost you there I'll say it in another way: the attempts to monitor the Moon against the background constellations were also attempts to discover the ecliptic, because the Moon never moves more than 6 degrees above or below it. The Moon's cycle is tied to the ecliptic, just as the cycle of eclipses is tied there too. All of the most important planetary activity - including that of all the visible planets - takes place in this one belt of the sky which (prior to Pluto) the zodiac covered entirely by being defined as a region that extends 8 or 9 degrees from the ecliptic. Above this, the stars do not move around in relation to each other.


Hello Deb,

Yes this is what we find in many cultures across the world. The Arabic and Indian Lunar Mansions ( Nakshatras) are good examples but there as numerous others. This method along with the rising and setting of certain fixed stars throughout the year were probably our earliest form of calendar. It took much longer before cultures acquired the sophisticated knowledge to plot the exact position of the Sun.

Quote:
That’s why astrology is so much dependent upon the zodiac - because it holds the planetary movements. By comparison, an ‘equatorial’ astrology system is missing out on all of this, being focused on a plane that is only expressive of the movement of the framework.


I think its interesting to compare the Mesopotamian approach to the Chinese system of astrology. The most startling difference between Chinese and Western astrology is the method or system the Chinese used to track the planets throughout the night sky. Each civilization was able to distinguish planets from the other stars located in the sky, but the reference points found in the sky are much different. The Western (Mesopotamian-Babylonian-Hellenistic-etc...) stellar positions are found by reference to the ecliptic, known to the Chinese as the Yellow Path, that is, an imaginary line through the heavens traced by the Sun. The Chinese locate heavenly bodies with respect to the celestial north pole and the celestial equator (called the Red Path by the Chinese) rather than with respect to the ecliptic.

As a consequence of the two different observational systems, two kinds of astrological interpretation sprang up. In Chinese astrology, the "lunar mansions " has prime importance. In this the sky is divided into 28 segments, each one representing a day of the moon's path through the sky. These are completely different from the Arabic or Indian Lunar Mansions which are focused exclusively on the ecliptic. Instead, the Chinese divide the sky equatorially into 28 segements calculated from the celestial pole and equator. This leads us to the fact that in Chinese astrology there are many stars and constellations of importance that are quite peripheral in western ecliptic centred astrology.

The very existence of the Chinese system challenges assumptions that the ecliptic based approach to astrology adopted in the Mesopotamian-Babylonian-Hellenistic cultures is the inevitable appproach a system of astrology must adopt.
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In this the sky is divided into 28 segments, each one representing a day of the moon's path through the sky. This leads us to the fact that in Chinese astrology there are many stars and constellations of importance to the Chinese astrology that are irrelevant in Western astrology.


This sounds like the equivalent of the Moon's mansions (if it is tracing the Moon's path then it also connects more directly to the ecliptic than the equator for the reasons I made above). But am I mistaken? Are you talking about something essentially different from the lunar mansions? I don't know much at all about the Chinese astronomical methods but they surely had the same time-concerns as other ancient civilizations - they were all primarily interested in developing their calendars by astronomical knowledge, and keeping their calendars in synch with the seasons. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a famous Chinese astronomer lived at the same time as ptolemy and was equivalent for doing many of the things he did, and that he helped to improve their working knowledge fo the ecliptic (but I am trying to remember where I read this, and right now my mind is going to bed Smile)
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Eddy



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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
first there was the perception of Sun, Moon, planets and stars moving along lowest, middle and highest respectively. These paths are equator oriented, only later the ecliptic was going to be used as reference.


Although the scholars refer to the 'paths' of Enlil, Anu and Ea, I think it must be misleading to do this. Regions or areas would be better. The region of Enlil goes up to the north pole, Anu covers the middle and Ea, what is known of the South.
Yes this is more correct Deb. The Babylonians divided in areas rather than paths as a line and in a zodiacal year scheme the path of Anu (at spring) would cover the months 12, 1 and 2, the equinox falling in the middle of the first month. This was in the Mul Apin text of ca. 700 BC. It would be interesting to have the zodiacal signs like this, it also brings more harmony in the exaltation schemes. Sun, Jupiter, Saturn and Mars on the colures. Sun with Moon and Venus on both sides. This trinity dates from much earlier times. And Saturn with Mercury on his side. I fond the place of Mercury a bit strange but when I saw in Gavin White's book on google on p. 174 that the Babylonians also gave the Sun an exaltation in Libra it becomes more clear. Venus with a "second exaltation or 'secret place' in the Lion" (White. p.141) also becomes more clear. Sun can really be in Libra and Venus in Leo when at greatest morning elongation. Note that these exaltations of Mercury and Venus are in the morning elongation positions, the more propitious ones.

I'm not sure if the Babylonians attempted to discover the ecliptic, it simply occurred. Perhaps we don't differ so much in the opinion of the ecliptic and equator, concurring opinions but with the same result.

Quote:
With regard to the exaltations, at this time what we know about that is issue is just enough to allow us to be completely confused by it. But there is a relevant point that I think you are overlooking. The association with Jupiter with the north, the ‘higher’ region, feeds into the principle that the north, where the Sun culminates in Cancer, was associated with the cooling and fertile north wind; Mars, exalted in the South, in the region of lowest descent in Capricorn, was associated with the hot, burning and destructive south wind. The quality of the wind is seen to be important even in the most ancient astrological references, but the idea of a cooling north wind, or a hot south wind, or a dry east wind / wet west wind, links again to the seasonal element.
I was aware of Ptolemy's view but I think this is a later 'scientification' of something with an originally cultural meaning. Same is with the exaltations which can (and are by Ptolemy) be explained in a weather way or in a mystery cult religious way (the 'gates') on which I speculated in the post before. Perhaps this is one of the issues where traditional astrologers of our days differ in opinion about the importance of Ptolemy. Maybe other astrologers of Ptolemy's days felt more attracted to the religious symbolic view and others to the more scientific and natural views.

Gjiada wrote:
About Ptolemy I know there is the old debate which is better Ptolemy or other hellenistic astrologers?
I don't have any answer to this.

What it is sure that astrology was so much linked with Ptolemy version of Aristotle, that when Aristotle was put in discussion, astrology died.

(.....)

The point is not what Ptolemy writes but that the greatest minds of Renaissance explained and gave examples of him, not about the rest . About the rest we know very little.

In Jim Tester's A History of Western Astrology page 210 it is said that in the Renaissance period "the more learned astrologers were themselves worried about this", i.e. the divisions of the zodiac in terms, novenarii, decans etc. So there was often this division between natural and judicial, which grew as modern science emerged.

By the way, in the countries at the North Sea, the North winds aren't not so gentle as in the area of Ptolemy (Alexandria). Moreover the South winds at the North Sea are the more pleasant and fertile instead of destructive hot and dry Martial winds of the desert. So the Ptolemean view should urge us to give other exaltations in Northern Europe. I still find Ptolemy's view a bit strange, the highest place is dedicated to the cool winds of the North because of being closest to the north, however when the Sun is over there, it's Summer and thus hot, and vice versa with the Mars position.
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