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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Tropical Astrology-Seasonal or Non-Seasonal?
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Christmas iconography is like astrology, it is something shaped on Europe and Mediterranean area, it's difficult to adapt in other places, and it is evidently based on seasons, because the date was fixed evidently on pagan winter solstice, and the symbolism of the waxing light.


I agree. Hence my envious comments about someone born on my birth date in Australia! We do see this issue of northern hemisphere traditions coming up vs southern hemisphere realities in other areas. I believe many Pagans/Wiccans in the southern hemisphere reverse the order of their festivals. Many Feng Shui practioners also reverse the traditional or directional associations.

However, whatever approach we adopt to southern hemisphere astrology we have to sacrifice something. In short:

Existing zodiac-We lose the direct association between specific seasons and the symbolism of the signs.

Reversed Dignities-We lose the traditional associations between planetary dignities and signs. Also there is confusion over what the planetary dignities are for charts cast near the equator

Reversed signs-We create a divided astrology with planets in opposite signs at the same time in the two hemispheres of the Earth. We also have the major problem of equatorial charts where there is confusion on which order of the zodiac prevails.

Beyond all these theoretical considerations there is the pragmatic point that nearly all practitioners in the southern hemisphere seem to find the existing zodiac working.

Actually, has anyone heard of any astrologer in the southern hemisphere actually working with reversed signs or dignities? I know it been proposed theoretically but I haven't heard of it actually being done by anyone. I would be interested to know.....

I found this article by an Australian astrologer musing on this issue and how to work with it:

http://www.astrobarry.com/2003/dec1503.php
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Eddy



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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that link Mark. It links ( http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html to another subject that has been baffling my mind for several years, that of the coriolis force in the bathtub. I had heard about the two tubs on the equator story which now turns out to be a fake. I had my questionmarks about it since the geographic equator usually doesn't coincide with the equator of the rotation of the Earth. Excuse me for this short distraction from the subject.

Back to the subject, note that if distances are measured along the ecliptic, seasons don't have a meaning because declination and height aren't part of the eclipitic coordinate system.
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Back to the subject, note that if distances are measured along the ecliptic, seasons don't have a meaning because declination and height aren't part of the eclipitic coordinate system.


That's a bit misleading because whilst its true that they are not, we have latitude instead. Celestial latitude is to celestial longitude what declination is to right ascension. However, I believe this is why some of the very ancient texts recorded planetary positions by both the zodiac signs and the visible, ecliptic-based constellations. Recording positions along the zodiac without reference to the background stars was much easier than recording their height - celestial latitude was a later development which needed the ecliptic to be reliably established first.

From the start, knowledge of the ecliptic developed as part of our increasing awareness of the Sun's seasonal cycle, as did the zodiac.
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Steve



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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:43 pm    Post subject: Astronomical Cycles Reply with quote

Quote:
From the start, knowledge of the ecliptic developed as part of our increasing awareness of the Sun's seasonal cycle, as did the zodia


So true Deb! The seasonal cycle was of tremendous importance to the ancients simply because of agriculture. But the seasonal cycle has just as much importance with other earthly cycles besides agriculture. Over the last 30+ years, I have seen dozens of key Sun Dates dividing the seasonal cycle by 24; turn all kinds of financial markets to an exact Sun Date with major Tops & Bottoms. This is truly a phenomenon to witness. It can only be witness by historical analysis of daily price charts that cover yearly periods of time. It made me realize that all markets move in cyclical waves topping & bottoming at major cyclical moments govern by astronomical natural law, involving the earth & sun. In fact it was this same phenomenon that got me seriously interested in the entire field of astrology. I told myself if this same natural law could govern market movements with important Tops & Bottoms, it damn sure could govern planetary life cycles in our lives. Unfortunately, I have not found any method of astrology that predicts which of these Sun Dates will determine a major Top or Bottom—these Major Tops & Bottoms remain, only an observable natural law phenomenon to be used intuitively.

Regards, Steve
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't really mind the high price for omitting the zodiac, I find the removing of the problem quite worth it.


Hi Eddy,

Fair enough. Although your comment rather reminds me of the old joke:

'The operation was a complete success but the patient died''

Clearly if you side step the conventions of tropical astrology you avoid any of the complexities this kind of astrology entails. However, you also lose all the immense benefits it can offer too. It would be rather like a siderealist coming along here and stating 'I have the answer! Abandon the tropical zodiac and adopt the sidereal zodiac'.

Like the majority of people here I have not come to critique the tropical zodiac. Most of us are very satisfied with it. I dont perceive this as a perfect world where there are any easy answers. Frequently, we have to scratch our heads and try to resolve paradoxical issues. As JP Sartre wrote 'we are condemed to choose'. Once we do that we must accept the consequences of where our choices take us. Maybe I am a masochist but I quite enjoy thinking my way through such difficulties.

Incidentally, this is off topic but dont you think its time you set out your personal approach for us here on Skyscript? We have had various snippets in your posts but I am still unclear how it comes together in practice. Maybe you could open a thread setting out your 'Neo-Keplerian' approach? For example how do you do natal work? I would be interested in finding out more about how you practice astrology without a zodiac, houses or planetary dignities.

Mark
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PFN



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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
PFN wrote:
Well, I live in Brasil and here we have only two seasons: summer and winter Tongue Out .

Only a short in between question to you, PFN:
Are the meanings of the signs (in personal charts) in Brasil contrariwise to those of the northern hemisphere? To be very short (too short of course, but in this context it may be allowed) Virgo 'tidy', Pisces 'chaotic'?

Thanks in advance.


I'm a bit late, but here is my say on the subject:

Some astrologers do propose the reversal of the zodiac in the southern hemisphere. Most of them, modern. For a traditional astrologer, I believe that would be mind numbing and impossible to work with. Virgo is 'tidy' here as well, and so is Pisces 'chaotic'. And you can still guess a Leo for his Sun tatoo on the arm and that crazy Aquarian on the spot. On the 21st of December we entered the summer, and right these past weeks, just as the Sun entered in Aquarius, I experienced a really strong heat wave, with clear blue sky and few clouds for an undying sun (how much I wanted to live in a place like Scotland, or somewhere without a sun at all...).

So, in terms of climate, I do not even use a correlation like "Sun is there, so this is the characteristics of this season". It would not work. But everything else does. So what is the answer? I do not know. For us, in the southern region, the correlation of signs to climate quality is partially lost already. Still, the shifts and some of those are not. For example, the fixed, mutable and cardinal qualities are not. But I'd like to point something: our climate never is as extreme as in the northern hemisphere. Rather than a precise shift, we do experience stations that are hard to discern between themselves, especially spring from summer and autumn from winter (they get easier to discern the more we go to the south, though). In both cases, the only really noticeable difference is generally that summer rains a lot, contrary to dry spring, and in winter there is almost no rain or humidity (contrary to mild, pleasant autumn).

And I find it very interesting to think that here, in the southern hemisphere, the Sun is at it's "highest" in Capricorn, not Cancer, which could explain why the seasons are "mixed" instead of clearly divided.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:


Some astrologers do propose the reversal of the zodiac in the southern hemisphere. Most of them, modern. For a traditional astrologer, I believe that would be mind numbing and impossible to work with. Virgo is 'tidy' here as well, and so is Pisces 'chaotic'.
.......

So, in terms of climate, I do not even use a correlation like "Sun is there, so this is the characteristics of this season"..


This is not exact. Reversing signs for southern hemisphere is Cardano and Campanella method, which are not modern astrologers.

They based their idea on Ptolemy thought.
Because for Ptolemy- I wrote many times, so forgive me for repetition- signs are just portions of ecliptics, which in turn is the annual path of the Sun, so Sun is very important here.
Nothing to share with sidereal zodiac.

The first 30 degrees after Spring ingress is called "Aries", the second 30 degrees Taurus and so on.
This is the only reason why Cardano and Campanella, who were Ptolemy followers obviously should reverse zodiacal signs- they could not write anything else.

Differences between Cardano, Campanella on one side and Morin who was a supporter of not reversed charts can be found in Astrologia Gallica volume 15, chapter I - translation by Holden

margherita
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Eddy



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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
Back to the subject, note that if distances are measured along the ecliptic, seasons don't have a meaning because declination and height aren't part of the eclipitic coordinate system.


That's a bit misleading because whilst its true that they are not, we have latitude instead. Celestial latitude is to celestial longitude what declination is to right ascension. (......)

From the start, knowledge of the ecliptic developed as part of our increasing awareness of the Sun's seasonal cycle, as did the zodiac.

True but I meant to say that according to my view any seasonal meaning can't be derived from celestial longitude whether taking latitude into account or not. The Sun for instance is always of latitude 0°, yet as the Sun proceeds through the zodiac the seasons and (except on the equator) the length of days change.

Seasonal change is related to height so we should rather look at the height of the Sun. We have two coordinate systems at our disposal, equatorial (with right ascension and declination) and the horizontal/azimuthal coordinate system. The latter is how we directly experience the seasons and day and night. Sun is low in the East and highest in the South (at the Northern hemisphere) and goes down again. This causes the differences in temperature during the day and the differences in the year is that the highest position of the Sun in Summer (for London for example) is 62° and the lowest in winter at 15°. Another effect of this is the length of the day. Here we rather look at the equatorial positions when the Sun moves parallel with the equator with long days in Summer and short days in Winter.

In archeological findings we see this in places like stonehenge and other ancient sacred places. Stones, walls, earth-mounds etc. are often placed as markers of the seasons on the horizon. In the early Babylonian astronomy we see the concept of 'paths' where the Sun is in Summer Winter etc. This concept is more related to the equator and displays the long and short paths of the seasons. The fixed stars are also given their places in the paths. Only later the concept of the ecliptic was to get realized when the Sun Moon and planets all moved always through the same path. Especially the eclipses were useful for this developement, hence the name ecliptic. While the Babylonians where more arithmetic, it were the Greeks who gave the ecliptic, equator etc. their geometrical meaning as great circles in the sky.


So I think that while we use the ecliptic now as the main path of the Sun, I believe that the meaning of the signs have their origin in the seasonal meanings that once were given to them. This also counts for the sidereal zodiac because precession was unknown before Hipparchus (2nd century BC) so there was no distinction between the two. Moreover many Indian astrologers/astronomers (who used the sidereal zodiac) adhered the theory of 'trepidation' (an osculation back and forth of the tropical 0° Aries around the sidereal 0° Aries) rather than the precessional movement in one direction.

If this is how the meaning of the signs originated then I would feel quite uneasy in using them, and especially with using them the same way everywhere on Earth. So here I come to your question Mark. Another thing of the astrological zodiac is the division in 'sectors', which obviously was derived from the 12 lunar months in the solar year. Symbolism and analogies served the spirit of the time when they originated but I consider them untenable. For example I think that the rulerships are a projection of the order of the planets on the signs as it was believed according to the Egyptians (the 'Egyptian order'). Same problem I have with the planetary hours, they are a projection of the 'Chaldean order' on the seasonal hours. I just can't use these with the Copernican knowledge in my mind. I'm sorry, while I can believe in some effect of different regions in the ecliptic/sky......
Kepler wrote:
4-3 If one turns to the planets or to nativities in order to prove the nature of the [zodiacal] signs, then the investigation is greatly obscured. It is comparable to the image of the sun in turbulent water, in which one sees a clear flashing of the sun far and wide, but no figure or image of the sun can be perceived, because the water is moving about. Likewise with nativities: that the sky is functioning within the human being can be seen clearly enough, but what it is doing specifically remains hidden, much less what quality each sign has, or at which points it begins and ends. This is because so many causes come together and are intermingled. Thus we stand by the statement that there is no experiment that proves that the twelve signs are divided up into various qualities -- especially in view of the fact that in the other [i.e. southern] temperate zone those signs that make us warm would have to be considered as cold, and visa versa...
(Response to the Discourse of Dr. Röslin, Physician and Philosopher, on the Nature of the Present Time, 1609)
..... I have problems with the idea that for example Venus would be comfortable in Pisces and as she moves forwards into Aries, bang! she is uncomfortably placed and later when entering Taurus, suddenly pleasant again.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons I like Kepler. He was modern in the sense that he believed in heliocentric system, yet he tried to apply old concepts to the modern world view. With a new term in my study which just started, I'm afraid I don't have much time to start a thread on my Keplerian views, but this collection of translated excerpts of Kepler's works http://cura.free.fr/docum/15kep-en.html implies for say some 90% of how I see astrology. Geometry and the relation with musical intervals is the main thing how I too see that astrology should work. I almost completely agree with his allmost all of his views in the article, it's a rather short and easy read and worth it. Moreover I really like this view, I see the magnificent beauty of it. I don't want to ridiculise the classic view though. The classical view is very coherent and has also a great beauty and sense of order. Moreover I respect and alsy envy the people over here with knowledge of Greek and Latin who can read the old original texts and have the patience to dig through them.

As for natal charts, I'm having a break from these for a while because with my chart as the main object of study I was getting a bit tired of this 'self observation'. I have been focussing on weather astrology (with aspects) for a while.
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PFN



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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:
PFN wrote:


Some astrologers do propose the reversal of the zodiac in the southern hemisphere. Most of them, modern.

.......

So, in terms of climate, I do not even use a correlation like "Sun is there, so this is the characteristics of this season"..


This is not exact. Reversing signs for southern hemisphere is Cardano and Campanella method, which are not modern astrologers.

They based their idea on Ptolemy thought.

margherita


That's why I said most (and I hope I did not imply it was a modern idea, since I had no idea whose it was at all).

Anyway, given the way things are, either Ptolemy is wrong, or the system is incorrect, or usage of non shifted signs on the southern hemisphere is. OR, there is something at play here that we can not quite grasp yet.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:

Anyway, given the way things are, either Ptolemy is wrong, or the system is incorrect, or usage of non shifted signs on the southern hemisphere is. OR, there is something at play here that we can not quite grasp yet.


For me, there is something we cannot grasp, and nobody is really wrong

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Deb
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
Seasonal change is related to height so we should rather look at the height of the Sun. We have two coordinate systems at our disposal, equatorial (with right ascension and declination) and the horizontal/azimuthal coordinate system. The latter is how we directly experience the seasons and day and night. Sun is low in the East and highest in the South (at the Northern hemisphere) and goes down again. This causes the differences in temperature during the day and the differences in the year is that the highest position of the Sun in Summer (for London for example) is 62° and the lowest in winter at 15°. Another effect of this is the length of the day. Here we rather look at the equatorial positions when the Sun moves parallel with the equator with long days in Summer and short days in Winter.


I don’t follow this Eddy. As I understand it, it took a long time for ancient astronomers to gather an exact knowledge of the ecliptic, but everything they did before hand was influenced (to some extent) by the need to obtain this. And once they had it, everything else flowed into easier development and understanding, because the ecliptic embeds the required knowledge of the equator (it is defined by its intersecting points). The ecliptic needed to be developed before anyone could have the reliable means to plot planetary positions in advance. The equator was of no use in this respect because the planetary cycles don’t follow the circle of the equator, they follow the circle of the Sun. And the seasonal information – which was an absolutely essential thing in the ancient world – was gathered out of knowledge of the Sun’s circle (the helical risings and settings are some of the pointers that lead towards it). This is why Gavin White’s discussion of the Babylonian constellations shows so much seasonal and solar symbolism at the heart of the myths and representations.

Quote:
to my view any seasonal meaning can't be derived from celestial longitude whether taking latitude into account or not. The Sun for instance is always of latitude 0°, yet as the Sun proceeds through the zodiac the seasons and (except on the equator) the length of days change.


The point about the ecliptic is that it is fixed upon the Sun’s alternating height as it progresses throughout the solar year, and so it shows the seasonal meaning implicitly. Once discovered, the only additional factor required is the knowledge of time. That’s why the zodiac allows for a mathematical division of the area behind the Sun’s path, whereas the visible constellations don’t. Also, just so you realise, because many people don’t, the principles that attract you so much to Kepler’s work (mathematical geometry, musical harmonies, etc) are philosophical principles that the symbolic use of the tropical zodiac relies upon. Both champion the practical and symbolic understanding of the mathematical division of the circle. Kepler didn’t develop this, he refined it (partly necessary because the world view was changing). I personally feel that the seasonal symbolism is impregnated into the circle, and the constellations, and it integrates so effectively with all the other symbolic philosophies that everything comes together in this meaningful mathematical circle. However, I can understand why others could have a hard time with that.

To me, it’s not a ‘make or break’ point for astrology because the planetary relationships are more important and the zodiac is only one of the means available to approach an understanding of them. In fact, I secretly applaud your methods of investigation because I think it is good for someone to be exploring this with an independent view of how things might work globally without any acknowledgement of seasonal effect – and especially without consideration of the astrological dignities. For example – the Mars-Saturn sextile: what does this mathematical relationship mean purely in its own terms, without any of the symbolic loadings of dignities and debilities? That is one area where I see astrological symbolism potentially standing in the way of an enhanced understanding of pure celestial effect.

Regards
Deb

PS – I am about to publish the last section of Gavin White’s Babylonian Zodiac. I think it would be great to start a discussion specifically about some of the points he covers, as the forum hasn’t given him any direct feedback on his research (which is a little interesting in itself).
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is not exact. Reversing signs for southern hemisphere is Cardano and Campanella method, which are not modern astrologers.


Thanks Margherita. I dont know how I got Gauricus involved in this!

Did they both propose reversing signs though? I thought one of them suggested reversing dignities instead? In modern times this latter suggestion has been made by the Irish astrologer Maurice McCann in his book The Sun and the Aspects.

It can be obtained from Midheaven Astrology in London online:

http://www.midheavenbooks.com/

At only £6.95(!) Its a real bargain as the book discusses various other issues of interest to traditional astrologers.

Quote:
They based their idea on Ptolemy thought. Because for Ptolemy- I wrote many times, so forgive me for repetition- signs are just portions of ecliptics, which in turn is the annual path of the Sun, so Sun is very important here. Nothing to share with sidereal zodiac


You go on to state:

Quote:
Anyway, given the way things are, either Ptolemy is wrong, or the system is incorrect, or usage of non shifted signs on the southern hemisphere is. OR, there is something at play here that we can not quite grasp yet.


That seems to cover all the options! So do you follow this 'Ptolemaic' logic in your own astrology? Do you reverse signs or dignities in charts from the southern hemisphere?

This was basically an academic discussion for astrologers like Cardano, Campanella or Morinus. However, its a very practical issue today not just for astrologers in the southern hemisphere but for anyone who travels there or considers nativities or mundane charts from this part of the world. Fence sitting is clearly not a viable proposition today!
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
Did they both propose reversing signs though? I thought one of them suggested reversing dignities instead?


It's the same. I can call the Libra the zodiacal sign following the Spring Equinox or say that Aries is the house of Venus and Saturn.

Moreover it's Morin method which is "reversed" because we should add 12 to the standard method and then reversing the cusps of the houses.
This is what a standard software does.

Quote:
That seems to cover all the options!

Yes, because I understand the astronomical logic in reversing signs but in practice Southern astrologers have good results without reversing.

Quote:
So do you follow this 'Ptolemaic' logic in your own astrology? Do you reverse signs or dignities in charts from the southern hemisphere?

I'm happy to live in the northern part of the world Smile
I have very little experience with Southern charts, but in CieloeTerra, following Ptolemy logic, they teach to reverse.

Quote:
This was basically an academic discussion for astrologers like Cardano, Campanella or Morinus

I don't agree.
In 1511 for Agostino Chigi wonderful villa with its unique zodiacal ceiling, Raphael painted all the sort of fruits and flowers from the New World- in different times of their growth.
It was possible because Agostino had tomatoes and potatoes and American flowers in his gardens on Tiber banks and Raphael could see them in different seasons of the year.

America was discovered in 1492, hardly 20 years before Raphael was painting his Lodge. And Campanella and Morin lived in 1600.
They surely met people from the Antipodes and Morin gives some example charts too together with the method is in use now.

margherita
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's the same. I can call the Libra the zodiacal sign following the Spring Equinox or say that Aries is the house of Venus and Saturn.


I dont agree. It has different consequences as I pointed out in my post above. If you reverse the signs you effectively create two zodiacs in the two hemispheres. Thus the Moon in Scorpio becomes the Moon in Taurus in the opposing hemisphere. Astrologers are not therefore able to even agree what sign a planet is in! However, the meaning of the signs and planets is unchanged in the separate hemispheres. Reversing dignities avoids a 'bicameral astrology' but of course the traditional linkage between the planets and their dignities is completely lost. We have the same problem of charts on the equator in either approach.

Do you know how CieloeTerra deal with the problem of equatorial charts?

Quote:
I don't agree.
In 1511 for Agostino Chigi wonderful villa with its unique zodiacal ceiling, Raphael painted all the sort of fruits and flowers from the New World- in different times of their growth.
It was possible because Agostino had tomatoes and potatoes and American flowers in his gardens on Tiber banks and Raphael could see them in different seasons of the year.

America was discovered in 1492, hardly 20 years before Raphael was painting his Lodge. And Campanella and Morin lived in 1600.
They surely met people from the Antipodes and Morin gives some example charts too together with the method is in use now.


In a strictly pedantic sense you are right. However, not all the 'New World' was in the southern hemisphere and much of southern hemisphere was still unsettled in 1600. I concede though Spanish and Portguse settlement came much earlier. Pizarro did not found Lima until 1533 but the Spanish conquest of the Inca Empire was not completed until 1572. While countries like Brazil were claimed by Portugal in 1500 it was not really settled much until the late 1520's. Many astrologers even in 1600 probably chose to avoid this problem. Still, I accept it would be more difficult for those from Spain or Portugal to ignore with their possessions like Chile, Peru, Argentina and Brazil in the southern hemisphere.

English speaking settlements in the southern hemisphere came much later with British settlement of Australia starting as late as 1788. The first Dutch settlers did not arrive in South Africa until 1652 while British settlement only began in earnest in South Africa after the end of the Napoleonic wars in the 19th century. In New Zealand significant British settlement only began after 1840 when the Treaty of Waitangi was signed between the British Crown and the Maori chiefs.

In the modern world though I dont really know how you can avoid confronting this issue today. In the English speaking world there are lots of celebrities from countries like Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Equally, as an Italian surely you come across the charts of people from Argentina? I thought millions of Italians emigrated there?
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkC wrote:
Do you know how CieloeTerra deal with the problem of equatorial charts?


Unfortunately not. I know there are some researches in progress, I will ask...


Quote:
English speaking settlements in the southern hemisphere came much later with British settlement of Australia starting as late as 1788.

Why this should be important? Morin was already in touch with people born in the Southern hemisphere and like him many Italian astrologers...
You would be surprised to know how many contacts were between New World and the Old Europe since the discovery of America.
Technologies and information went very fast even in the past- even without considering Great Britain or her ex-colonies Smile

Quote:
I dont really know how you can avoid confronting this issue today. In the English speaking world there are lots of celebrities from countries like Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. Equally, as an Italian surely you come across the charts of people from Argentina? I thought lots of Italians emigrated there?


I swear I almost never cast a chart from Southern hemisphere.
Some soccer champions who are very famous here like Pelè, Maradona, Ronaldo or actors like Russel Crowe.
Europe is far even from Anglosaxon world, imagine from Australia....I swear I never heard talking about Tiger Woods, before see astrologers discuss his case.

margherita
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