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Planetary Ruler - when there is doubt

 
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Planetary Ruler - when there is doubt Reply with quote

Woman (a friend of a relative) asked me about the potential for a reconciliation with someone she broke up with some 8 months back. The ASC ruler is Mars, while the person asking is a young woman. Venus is intercepted in the 1st. The planetary hour ruler is barely Venus (a minute off from the Sun - which would be appropriate, as it is the exaltation ruler of Aries, and is firery in nature). Would you take the woman to be Mars or Venus here?

Just use Mars?

I feel iffy about this, as I would take Venus to still care for Mars a great deal (if you follow this technique as I do - Frowley/Carol I guess). When I first began horary over a yr ago, I took it as Mars loving Venus, but now read it the other way. I guess it depends on the astrologer.

Obviously the chart is not very promising either way (especially since Moon is VOC, though some may say it may function in Sag, sign of Jupiter), but I am curious what other astrologers would do as significator here. Moon obviously is separated (appropriately 8 degrees ago - months), and the applying square between both of them is not favorable either, though they are in some reception. 8th house Moon is a big, ugly thing (painful endings, anguish of mind)... though, I honestly might see it as 9th because it is within 5 degree conjunction of that house cusp.

One thing I personally do, which is probably weird, is look at the 5th house ruler for both parties, to get a feel if their "heart" are on the same wavelength, or looking elsewhere. His is Saturn (a cold indication), in his 12th (secret); hers is Sun (expressive) in his house. So it seems like he is keeping his true feelings from her. And if Mars and Venus are switched, the two 5th house rulers make more sense because they are in each other's signs (meaning of the signs of the primary sigs) vs. in the sign of each other's detriment... That was one of the main reasons I questioned this.

Over all the chart is looking like a "no" though... Since I don't know this person very well, I am a bit reluctant to do a reading for her anyway... I was just curious about the ambiguity of the rulership.

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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Woman (a friend of a relative) asked me about the potential for a reconciliation with someone she broke up with some 8 months back. The ASC ruler is Mars, while the person asking is a young woman. Venus is intercepted in the 1st. The planetary hour ruler is barely Venus (a minute off from the Sun - which would be appropriate, as it is the exaltation ruler of Aries, and is firery in nature). Would you take the woman to be Mars or Venus here?


Hi Tanit,
You mention Venus intercepted in the 1st - is that a mistake? It's in the 7th in this chart. I'm also not sure why you have doubts about the signification, and don't just accept Mars as the 1st-ruler for the querent and Venus - 7th ruler - for the quesited. This describes the querent as normally a decisive person but hesitant in this situation (Mars is slow), whilst the quesited is described as wanting to get this relationship back on track. if you are not sure, then the best way to confirm the signification is to check how it describes the two people involved.

In terms of who loves who most, and who wants to make the relationship happen/end the most, we see that from the planet which is moving most quickly to make the application towards (or separation away from) the other. Venus is moving towards the square of Mars - that's a difficult aspect but it is received by Mars by square, so you have the indication here that the querent is wary, and the relationship is quite difficult, but both appear to want it and so they should be able to overcome the difficulties.

Regards
Deb
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Deb, if this was confusing. Thanks very much for your interp. I meant that the sign of Taurus was intercepted in the 1st house (which some would say to take Venus as co-sig) and Scorpio in the 7th, then the fact that the hr ruler was Venus and the querent being a woman. I guess since this is a romance question, the Venus influences on the 1st house would make sense, though...

I have heard of other astrologers online turning a chart when they think the sigs should be switched, but it sounds rare and I have never heard of it in ancient techniques.

I agree that you should probably take Mars, but I always find it odd when these two are switched. Maybe gender roles are a little switched here too, as the woman is probably a little more aggressive than the man.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I canít speak for the experience of others, but I donít think there is any need to make life so complicated. The system works really well if we just use tried and tested methods, keep a simple approach, and apply it consistently. The significators should describe appropriately, but we are looking for a temperamental signature that reveals itself in physical description, so itís no problem to have Venus describing a man or Mars describing a woman. In fact, a debilitated Venus is the traditional signification for a male love cheat, or a Ďcharmerí that is also a philanderer. And how else could we get the signification for what Lilly calls a virago - a woman who wears the trousers? This just tells us something about the dynamics of the relationship, and possibly the reason why the Ďexí is an ex Smile
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Tanit



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Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure you are right, Deb! Thanks for reminding me to not go off on silly tangents. I suppose because the woman questioned me about this it seemed to me that she was the one more inclined to do something about the situation vs. the man, and the chart seems to suggest the opposite. You are right that she is hesitant when normally more go-getting. The relationship does sound like a lot of drama (eh, young love!), so the chart appears pretty radical to me. Not sure if he's a philanderer, but he does seem a bit of a commitment-phobe. It's hard to find a young man these days who isn't, I suppose. Confused
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tannit

Why the confusion? I'm still learning Horary so any help you could offer would be appreciated.

Is it because Mars is not a very effeminate planet? When you think about it though she is asking about herself 'doing the chasing' so to speak.

With Venus in Venus' house, perhaps there's a feeling that the quesited 'wont come out to play'.
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Tanit



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Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul - I have had this doubt before about rulership (when the hour and chart ruler are not in agreement), and it makes me question whether or not the chart is even radical. But Deb is right that it's best to keep it simple and see if the sigs fit the querent/quesited. I suppose since I did not know these people, that makes me more uneasy in my approach.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized that I never posted an outcome for this, sorry! I never gave the reading to the woman, because I personally didn't feel a good connection to the chart and her other charts (natal, composite, synastry) for some reason. I am a Mars-Jupiter square, so I can just sometimes not feel like putting much effort into it! Tongue Out Maybe it was best to let them sort it out themselves. My sister told me that the man approached her after a while, and they got back together recently. They work together at a casino. So Mars hesitant makes sense. She normally was the one to patch things up in the relationship, but I guess she was firm that he had to this time. I also misinterpreted what she said about their separation, and I guess it wasn't 8 months, it was like 8 weeks or something.

In natal, they both have a lot of hard Saturn-Venus stuff (also Venus-Uranus), so they can have a hard time relating to people properly and run hot/cold. Definitely some difficult nativity for these two, especially the woman, but I hope they work it out because they have some similarities too.
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