Will she marry the guy?

1
My friend asked this question. She had met some guy at a conference and they were attracted to each other. A year has passed and they kept their relationship via e-mail and text messages as he is living in another country, but had not met in person. Eventually my friend thought the relationship dissolved. Just recently they met again at another conference, and the attraction was stronger this time. She asked this question after she returned back home.
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I felt that the chart was positive in spite of some negative indication. She is Venus in Sag in the 7th house (that validates her question) however applying to the conj with the Sun (combast), not strong in Sag, so all together not a very positive position for my friend. He is Mars in Leo in his 10th, the 4th of the horary. Mars is a malefic but in triplicity in Leo and on the angle -- not sure how to interpret that - it is not so great that he is shown by malefic but good for him as his sig is strong. The Moon is in detriment and new, it just entered Capricorn and is applying to a square with Saturn which is not very favorable for the querent, as the Moon is her co-significator, but Venus (she) is applying to a very tight trine with Mars. So I judged that to be a positive indication. I told her that it looked like something is going to happen between them, and they will at least get together, and based on the close aspect between Venus and Mars pretty soon (within a few months). What is your judgment of this chart?

2
Hello elumen

You say that you think the chart's positive despite some negative indications, however I wonder how much weight you're placing on the negative side?

If you take the significators one by one, starting with either the Moon or Venus, and go through the Essential and Accidental dignities and debilities step by step, e.g. using Lilly's table as a starting point, it places a good interpretational foundation stone down, before getting into aspects and mutual receptions etc.

As a fellow student of horary I find that's the best way to build up a clear picture of what the chart's saying. Bringing in the aspects and mutual receptions too early can make that basic clarity get obscured.

On a technical point, you don't seem to be considering Venus as in the 8th - is that because you've found it doesn't work that way in your horaries?

Regards

H.

3
Also, looking at the astrology, what would you say is the interest here?

Moon in 8th, Venus in 8th (even if you consider it in the 7th, it's conjunct the 8th, yes?), Mars in 4th (his 10th)....... is this shouting 'marriage!'? Does it look like he's interested in marriage? Like there's a union of hearts and lives and homes etc?

I know it's difficult when it's the chart of your friend but you really can trust the astrology, so pretend it's someone else's chart, and what would you say about it?

(Not sure if you've read Deb's book on the houses yet but it's really, really good, and very accessible - and concise!)

Regards

H.

4
I am also not seeing the positive influences. Combustion is the greatest form of prohibition in my experience. I realize you probably saw the applying trine between Venus-Mars and thought it was promising, but fire signs and Sun ruling the 5th is super romantic/passionate, not exactly stable.

Venus is very much out of her element here. She's a feminine nocturnal planet in a diurnal chart in masculine fire sign, that is mutuable too, combust, in the 8th and out of sect. This sort of strips away Venus' more natural feminine characteristics and makes her much more heated and passionate (in a fire sign and conjunct Sun!). She may also be a little more aggressive in her approach to love maybe, especially since the Moon is right up there with her, though in detriment in Capricorn. Venus is not acting "correctly" for some reason though, and so I'd wonder if this would more likely just be a romance and not long-term. Mutable signs are especially unstable, and she's in an unfortunate house. In some ways Venus/Moon is a bad influence here. I have personal experience with the 8th house, and it's not a fun place to be in romance horaries, and Venus would likely act with debility here. I also know of a recent horary where I saw someone who had a fight with her boyfriend, and almost the exact same setup was seen in her horary. She was also a natal Venus in Sag, and she put her foot in her mouth a lot. The relationship was severed over the argument, so I might wonder if something similar might happen, with so much fire involved and an 8th house influence.

Mars is not so great either of course by being so slow and about to go retro, also peregrine, though he is below the horizon away from the Sun (he's a nocturnal planet) and in a masculine fire sign, so he is behaving a little more normally for Mars. But the naure of Mars itself can also be a bit self-absorbed, especially in a fire sign. Over all the horary seems to point to two people who are very independent and are trying to commit to something that requires a compromise, which is not really in their nature. I would not put all of the blame on Mars though, as he's in a romantic fixed sign and is less debilitated than Venus. Venus seems more like a "bad player" to me. I would ask your friend if she is really looking to settle down, because she appears to like the romance aspect of things vs. long-term stability. She seems very changeful/impulsive to me.

5
PS - Sorry I just want to add a postscript

I want to clarify that I'm aware your judgement given to your friend was cautious and didn't suggest marriage:-
"I told her that it looked like something is going to happen between them, and they will at least get together, and based on the close aspect between Venus and Mars pretty soon (within a few months)."
Part of my intention in my earlier posts in this thread was based on the fact that the chart contains helpful descriptive information and advice for your friend that can be found by going through the various testimonies in detail from the ground up.

Building the horary up that way not only helps construct the picture for your judgement about what's likely and unlikely for the outcome of the question but also that same picture that you paint can help your friend adjust herself to the situation better (that applies to 'good' charts as well as 'bad' ones).

To me that's as much if not more the value of horary as 'finding the right answer to the question'. That's what I was trying to get at in my earlier posts. I get there in the end...... :)

Regards

H.

6
Handn makes a lot of good points. Horary shouldn't just be about the outcome, but serve as a sort of mirror for the querent's behavior and a warning for what might happen if she behaves a certain way.

In any case, they seem to be very similar to one another, and there is a likelihood of some sort of connection, but more likely short lived vs. marriage, as has been discussed. Perhaps that is more of what she is truly looking for anyway.

Other things I didn't bring up are ASC approaching Caput Algol, which in love horaries can mean losing your sense of proportion and approaching dangerous territories, as it makes a person "lose their head" in any matter. Saturn is also sitting in the house of romance. Saturn is a party-pooper planet, and doesn't really do so well there. It would make things more unrequited, cold, distant, etc. Moon also applies to a square to Saturn next, after a conjunction to Pluto. Moon is already just entered into detriment in the unfortunate 8th, so I hope your friend doesn't get hurt by this relationship. Signs of Saturn for the life-giving planets, Moon and Sun, are not good because these planets give life to the matter whereas Saturn takes such things away. Saturn also rules the 9th/10th here, showing a long-distance and career connection, so it's likely something to do with them being both career-driven (plus Mars in his 10th) and long-distance, which is difficult for any relationship.

8
Deb mentioned in another horary that Mars slow in Leo tends to show someone who is normally quick at making decisions be more hesitant/guarded.

I don't know if a stationary planet would make the trine quicker, but perhaps he is allowing the trine to proceed when he'd normally say that a long-distance relationship wouldn't work?

I still say the combustion has to be a great challenge, and may even stop anything from happening all together. Especially with 8th house influences.

9
Hi, elumen!

I thought I'd read what others have had to say after I finish writing my post but then I coudn't resist peeking into Tanit's and handn's post :) .

To be perfectly honest, I don't think that this looks like a very good situation but, having said that, I'm not really sure as to how objective the Querent's approach was to begin with. I would by no means want to sound disrespectful of platonic or deep emotional relationships that do not include much physical contact and much time spent together (it would, actually, go against my perception of the nature of true feelings and the idea of devotion) but I must say that asking a question about marriage in such a situation does seem a bit "odd" and not well centered sort of speaking. To say the least- it does not sound constructive. I would probably try to suggest the Querent to take a more direct approach and re-think the form of the question as, analysing the potential in general and seeking guidance and help on how to influnce the situation would have been a much better option in my opinion. Because, what if she doesn't marry him? Every relationship can bring beauty to a person's life and, likewise, every relationship is potentially "dangerous"- I simply think that concentrating on the nature of their relationship rather then the Querent's final goal would have been a much better choice as such approach would have offered a constructive help. By asking a question in such manner , the Querent could then use the informations as her tools- something that she can use rather than something that she will have to obey to.

Having said all this and after mentioning marriage and her apparent hastiness in particular , I do have to say that the placement of two very important planets- her ruler and the Moon- inside the 8th (much less, her ruler on the very cusp of it), and both of them severely burnt by the Sun makes me wonder what kind of circumstances could have possibly made her ask such a question. While I don't think that this placement is very promising in terms of a positive outcome, I also think that they should be taken descriptive of her current state of mind, the phase of life that she is currently going through and, potentially, of her approach to this situation in particular and in general as well.

She has a plan (we always do when we ask Horray questions or, at least, we hope to get enough useful informations in order to create a good plan) but the moon inside the 8th does not look like a good plan- maker. It doesn't look like a good match-maker either fo that matter. Her ruler being placed on the 8th cusp doesn't present her in the best shape either and here, I'm referring to her plan-making skills or enthusiasm if you like. Even without this man, she seems to be "trapped" inside the 8th and very much focused onto it.Or is it because of him? And I wonder why?
In plain words, she doesn't look overly optimistic and there has to be a reason for it.

As for the general tone of the situation- though some would not use an out-of-sign conjunction with the Sun as relevant, I would by all means not dismiss it and would consider this Moon pretty damaged. New Moon charts do not promise much. Secondly, her ruler is burnt by the presence of the Sun as well which only supports the idea that something is not as it should be.
The Moon is at a very early degree, possibly suggesting a recent change or her wish to start a new phase or examine the possibilities of making a fresh start but it is a) combust , b) inside the 8th , c) peregrine and detrimental and d) it is disposed by Saturn and applying to it in a square.
To me, the Moon/Saturn aspect especially a stressful one, sounds like coldness if not rejection and does not bode well in a romance chart. With the Moon's last separation being the conjunction with the Sun (heat, burning out, extremes) and it's next application being a stressful square with cold Saturn (harsh, cold, dissatisfaction..) , dignified but cadent, it looks like a very turbulent period that she is going through to me . Hot/cold, passion/rejection etc. I am aware that this also means that the Moon is actually applying to its own dispositor which should generally bode well but here we're talking about a weak moon in a bad house (even saturn is inside the 6 st) and about a stressful aspect which all makes me wonder if this moon could actually receive some sort of damage rather than become strengthened by this application. I hope I am wrong!
Of course, that is my impression based on the natural rulership of Saturn.
But, you might also want to take the houses that Saturn rulers in this chart into consideration; it is the ruler of the 10th, her profession/job or his home, it is also the ruler of the 11th and 9th and here, again, you might want to thoroughly examine all the potential possibilities and symbolic of the derived houses.

The two planets are applying to each other indeed, only, the Moon as well as the shape of L7 do not seem to be promising much. How well can her ruler receive the influence of Mars when placed inside the 8th and combust?! The fact that this Mars was about to turn retrograde might also be important- it wi l not prevent the main rulers from meeting each other but note that this Mars is actually applying to her dispositor (inside the 10th) only that aspect will never be perfect as the Mars will change its motion before reaching the desired degree. Why is her dispositor placed inside the 10th (or his derived 4th) and conjunct Neptune? Any ideas?

The planet that is damaging both her ruler and the Moon is the dispositor of Mars- and the ruler of the 4th and 5th; it might be a good sign that the damage is actually coming directly from him or this affair or that not everything about the situation concerning it is perfectly clear to her (blindness). The Sun could also simply be his masculinity though, i believe that it represents much more than just his masculine sign or power in this case.
of course, you might want to include additional symbolics of the houses that it rules or try to include the fact that this planet disposes his ruler into the story in a different way depending upon the facts that you are familiar with.

So, the bottom line is- I think that, besides the future, the present is hiding some sort of a burden that only the Querent can decipher.
Last edited by aglaya on Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Having not read so far, but -

Venus is combust, peregrine, and in 8, giving her no power at all here. Starstruck, maybe, with the combustion?

Moon is in 8, detrimented and combust. Not a nice combination.

Mars is peregrine, meaning he's not likely to push it forwards, either, and about to retrograde, could easily change his mind about things.

Jupiter (8 ruler) is in partile square to the ascendant, indicating that the querent will receive some kind of damage from the answer.

I also give Algol a pretty wide orb of influence (and the stars either side of it are nasty even if you don't), and the ascendant is a little too close to it. Passionate affair, promises, made, but promises will be broken?

I like seeing Venus/Mars in love horaries as significators, but peregrine planets don't perform well in horaries, and all that 8 emphasis is kind of scary. Either it's about his money, or she's just not going to be able to do anything to effect the outcome.

11
My god, your guys are so very good! I'm starting to think that I need to learn much more before I could interpret charts for people. I confess that I mostly took into account the applying trine between Mars and Venus, because it seemed so potent, and having her Venus in Sag in the 7th (although it could be considered working for the 8th, I agree), and Mars in his 10th, described them well. My friend is somewhat restless and has a strongly mutable chart (her natal Moon is in Sag, and natal Venus in the 8th but in Virgo), and he is a professionally prominent person.
But I completely agree with all points made. The question is unrealistic, they never had any physical contact and he did not really pursue it. So asking about the marriage at this point is not in line with their relationship. He flirted with her, but he also flirted with other girls, as she pointed out. They had some fights during the conference my friend told me, so here is the symbolism of Mars. After the conference was over, he did not e-mail or call her for almost a month, and she was hurt by it. So seems like Saturn square Moon played its role, and she felt rejected and hurt. I likely added to this by giving her false hope.
:(
I think she was attracted to him, and thought it would be good to get such a guy for husband, as he is well-to-do, there is a part in her own chart that she wants to marry someone with money (having a large stellium in Virgo in her natal 8th house). Anyway, my learning from this: I will give much more weight to all the factors, not just the aspects between the rulers of the houses in question.
Do you think that anything might happen between them? (Although, I know that at this point she decided to drop the association and connection with him.)

12
Yeah, there's definitely a lot more to horary (and classical astrology in general) than aspects. :lol: Skyscript has a love horary article that might help you a bit in the future:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/relationships.html

This site is full of resources and old texts that are downloadable, so you have everything you could ever want to know in one place, even if you're like me and can't afford the books! There is too much for any one of us to learn though, since astrology is such an ancient study.