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Positive chart? Known outcome
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AquariusMoonPerson



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 80

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:39 am    Post subject: Positive chart? Known outcome Reply with quote

Here is a chart my best friend casted back in March '09. She asked will she go to Europe in 2009. But she is there now left a week ago. ASC is conjunct Spica, very positive I thought Very Happy . But her significators are both in detriment and fall. 9th house ruler, for travel overseas, is Mercury trining the Moon, her co-significator. Can someone tell me where in the chart says no, but she did go after all but not that year? Is it enough to say that her two significators are very weak? Moon conjunct the ASC, could it just show her intense desire to go? She was planning to go that fall, around November. She really ended up going a couple of months after that actually! End of the matter is Saturn rx, in the 11th, house of hopes and wishes. Would this mean her wishes were dashed? The main reason she could not go was she did not have enough money, she was just a little short of her goal. Here is the chart:

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AquariusMoonPerson



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Her primary sig is very debilitated, by being in detriment, retro and in the unfortunate 6th. Retro planets sometimes change their minds too, so they can go back and forth on an issue. 7th house is also something we look at in journeys, and here that is Mars, as is her 2nd ruler. Both of her sigs are in signs of Mars, which would show her interest in going on a journey, but also her concern with finances (2nd ruler - her finances). Mars will be much stronger essentially/accidentally than Venus too when it reaches Pisces (I didn't check an ephemeris - but it might change before the Moon changes signs), so the journey might be something worthwhile (since the 7th ruler is stronger than the 1st ruler).

Libra rising and Mercury being the 9th ruler in the 5th in Pisces, Venus' exaltation, might show a romance connection, as might the 7th house influences. When I first saw this chart it looked like a romance horary. I would check that the planetary hour/sign rulers are in agreement. But maybe she is just wanting to look at art and whatnot. 5th is also recreation/fun. Pisces is a pretty dreamy/romantic sign, so it might fit a trip to Europe.

Both the Moon and Mars are either at the beginning or end of their signs, which usually shows instability in the question, which is probably why she just barely made the cash. Mars is about to enter Venus' exaltation though, which is also its own triplicity, and so Mars is strong there and will be in strong reception with Venus, even though they are in aversion and Venus is weak. ASC also trines Mars, and Moon trines Mercury, as you mentioned.

Saturn opposing the trip (9th ruler) and the PoF might just signify delays. It would have been a tough call to say that she could make the trip, but it seems like it was ultimately up to the cash issue (Mars).
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting chart.

In terms of horary rues laid out by Masha'allah, also a very clear and straightforward one. The Moon applies to Mercury, ruler of the quesited, which is in a good house, by trine - whenever this first joining is immediately to the ruler of the quesited, the matter is perfected. It doesn’t matter if this planet is malefic or benefic, in dignity or not, and reception is not required. This is the most straightforward method of perfection.

Regards,
Goran
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Tanit's analysis, particularly relative to the cash issue, is highly accurate. By my own method (Whole Sign-just call me Dr. Wholesign!) the Moon is posited in the 2nd House (finance issues) in its Fall in Scorpio, triply disposited by Mars (sign, decanate + Chaldean planetary attribution) Moon's dodekatemorion (its "ramifications") remains in Scorpio, still within the 1st decanate, still triply disposited by Mars.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read Tanit's post yet, I'll read it later!

I don't know what to say- I do think that this is a NO chart. Maybe a "No, not now but later" chart but certainly not a clear YEs chart.
But, you also said that she didn't leave that same year- could it be that the circumstances had significantly changed before she finaly left and that she actually did have to let go of her dream for some time? At the same time- if we'd dismiss the time frame set for this question, we could, perhaps, use the current placements as descriptive of the situation at the moment of the question and see if any of the future aspects and future movement of the planets (inside the current sign or through the next sign) fit the time or depict the circumstances before she was able to make her wish come true.

Still, I'd say that, if there was a specific date involved- the chart was not promising that she would leave on that date. The next year or next time- that is another thing but, seeing so many weak planets in this chart, this situation could not have produced an instant positive answer, IMHO.

The reasons- her ruler detrimental and in the house of poverty, obviously suggesting that money or lack of it we her big fear. A detrimental, retrograde and cadent ruler is not in a position to act in the desired way. It is also separating from a benevolent aspect with the Greater benefic Jupiter in unatural motion ("wrong" direction); Jupiter is inside the 4th (home) and with this planet being the ruler of the 3rd and the 5th maybe we do have a promise of her temporarily giving-up, re-thinking, waiting for some better time to move/leave etc.
In another thread, Deb has mentioned that, in such or similar cases, we should examine the 7th rather than the 9th for destinations and, seeing Venus inside the rulership of L7 we ovbiously do have a strong sign of her great wish to go to italy. But not the power to achive that for the time being. The Moon is at a very early degree posibly suggesting that she was yet to undertake the majority of preparations but it is also in Via Combusta (not a good promise) and separating from Mars, the ruler of the 7th. Mars itself is at a very critical degree and about to change signs which could be another strong testimony of changing plans.

If we do include the ruler of the 9th, we do have an application of an angular Moon to it and by a benevolent trine but, again, this Moon, though very "keen" on the Querent, is still extremely weakend due to its placement in the first degrees of Scorpio.

My main conclusion is basically that the chart was saying NO and that it pretty much did give a correct answer to the original question - will I go to italy this year? Because, you say that she didn't; she only left next year.
The Ascendant was early (pre-mature), the Moon was weak and so is the Lord of the ascendant. To me, it was a "NO, not when you planned!". But later.


Cheers! Wink


Last edited by aglaya on Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:35 pm; edited 3 times in total
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, yes, and another thing- if we do try to examine this chart peeking beyond the given time frame, then the Moon's placement just might be very discriptive; it is currently in Via Combusta but it won't be in much better shape after leaving that path either as it also very weak in the later degrees of Scorpio as well. But we could try to examine its passage through the sign it is currently in as the sequence of the events throughout a longer time period- a year most likely. So, maybe the Moon crossing the sign boundary could be taken as the beginning of the New year. Just a hint, 'tho, I'm not sure I'd approach it that way. I don't have the ephemeries at hand now but it would be interesting to examine the movement of Venus through Aries for that period and see for how long after the question it was retrograde.

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AquariusMoonPerson



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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry I though via combusta meant sun and moon in the same sign Confused .

I never thought of 7th the destination...now i think i see it much clearer now.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
sorry I though via combusta meant sun and moon in the same sign


Common mistake. The via combusta, or firey road, is an area of the zodiac between 15 degrees Libra and 15 degrees Scorpio. You are probably thinking of combustion, which is when a planet is conjunct the Sun. There is also being under the Sun's rays, which is in the same sign of the Sun, but a distance away from it (depends on the orb that you use). Cazimi is a severe form of combustion, which is when a planet is within 17 arc mins of conjunction with the Sun, and is considered more benefic because the planet is fortified by the Sun.


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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
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Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I have mentioned elsewhere, my field involves astro-therapeutic analyses of various types (including "medical horary") and, as I have previously stated, my experience in other horary questions is quite limited (eg, over the past 5 years I have only done just over 300 non-medical horaries, involving relationship issues, relocation matters, some business and travel questions, etc) Nonetheless, there are perhaps a few Skyscript members who might have some interest in my methodology as applied to non-therapeutic interrogations. Here is an example of how I would approach the current question.

"Will I travel to Italy this year?" (dated 2009)
Natue of Question: capable of being answered either yes or no
Dragon's Tail in First House? No; means chart may be analyzed
Chart Construction: Whole Sign

+Primary Indicators: Part of Travel (& its dispositor); Lord of Asc (=Venus)
+Secondary Indicators: Lord of 9th House (=Mercury); Moon (why? because Moon symbolizes "change", and "change" is implied in the nature of the current horary question)
+Tertiary Indicator: Part of Fortune ("..beginning of all actions...whatever is on the mind of the person..."Ibn Ezra)
+Relevant stars: Algorab-Baten kaitos-Markab-Rasalhague-Skat-Spica (total 6 stars)

Analytical Sketch:

-Part of Travel (Asc+beginning of 9th house*-ruler of 9th house: Ibn Ezra)
= 15Capricorn49, posited in 4th house, disposited by SaturnRx ("rx=rebellious and defiant" quality, Ibn Ezra); Saturn, significator of Part of Travel, posited in the 12th house=house of restrictions: Testimony = strongly negative (strong "no" answer to horary question)
{* this would = 0Gemini00 in Whole Sign chart construction)

-Asc 24Libra22 (3rd decanate, ruled by Mercury) long. conjunct Spica, parallel Mercury: Testimony=strong positive (strong "yes" answer)

-Venus, Lord of Asc, posited in Aries, its detriment; Venus in contra-parallel with Mars; also in parallel with Neptune; parallel with Rasalhague, a disruptive star of Saturn conjunct Venus quality; Rasalhague with Venus indicates "...accidents...unfavorable for gain..." (Robson); Testimony = strongly negative (strong "no" answer)

-Lord of 9th house, Mercury, posited in Pisces, disposited by Jupiter (however Jupiter in Aquarius is in turn disposited by the delaying Saturn in 12th house of restrictions); the next perfect aspect of Mercury will be with Saturn (an opposition, perfection 9 degrees away from current position); Mercury 8 degrees from perfect trine with Moon (but Moon is posited in its Fall in Scorpio, in the 2nd house of finances); Mercury in long. conjunction with the benefic star Skat (a positive testimony), the benefit of which is at least partially negated by Mercury also being in parallel with Baten Kaitos, a disruptive star of Saturnian quality which includes an indication of "...bad for transportation..."; Testimony =mixed (neutral answer to horary question)

-Moon, in its fall in Scorpio (2nd house, indicating financial implications relating to the horary question); Moon applying to Mercury (beneficial indication) but will make its next perfect aspect (semi-square) with Saturn (2 degrees from perfection) and, at the same time, perfect a trine with Pluto (these perfect Lunar aspects will occur before its perfection with Mercury); Moon in parallel with Pluto; Moon square MC; Moon parallel with Algorab, a disruptive star of Mars conjunct Saturn quality; Testimony = strongly negative (strong "no" answer)

-Part of Fortune, in Pisces, disposited by Jupiter (= benefic testimony), however, Jupiter itself is disposited by the delaying Saturn from the 12th house of restrictions; Saturn in partile opposition to the Part of Fortune, as well as Saturn being in contra-parallel with the Part of Fortune;
Testimony = negative (a "no" answer)

Other Testimonies:
-Sun conjunct Uranus; Sun in partile square to sensitive point* of 9th house (of long journeys) (24Gemini22); Sun long. conjunction with Markab, a disruptive star of Mars conjunct Mercury quality, with Sun connection indicating "...disappointed ambition..." (Robson);
Testimony = negative (a "no" answer)
(*"Sensitive Degree" of a house in Whole Sign is similar to the "cusp" in other house construction systems)

-Jupiter posited 2nd decan of Aquarius (the Libra decan, connecting with Ascendant and Venus; to me this indicates finances-signified by Jupiter-being connected with the "essence" of the horary question-but this is only my personal opinion in this specific matter); Jupiter in Aquarius is thus disposited by the delaying Saturn from the 12th house of restrictions; Jupiter also in parallel with Pluto (the latter posited in the 4th house, disposited itself by Saturn); Jupiter in long. conjunction with Algorab (same star in parallel with the Moon), a disruptive star of a Mars conjunct Saturn quality; Testimony = negative (a "no" answer)

Dodekatemoria ramifications: no dodek connections which alter or significantly modify the net "quality" of the totality of testimonies.

Result of the totality of testimonies = a definite "NO" answer to the specific question.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AquariusMoonPerson wrote:
sorry I though via combusta meant sun and moon in the same sign Confused .

I never thought of 7th the destination...now i think i see it much clearer now.


I'm pasting a part of Deb's answer to Paul from another thread:

Deb wrote:
The 9th house indicates long journeys into remote places, so this probably does need some explanation.

The 9th house is a cadent house which is descriptive of ‘alien’ (ie., unfamiliar) environments, but the 7th house also has a strongly developed tradition of signifying the place where we move to or journey to. Hence, in a question about a journey, the 7th afflicted could show trouble in the destination, or the significator retrograde could show that the destination is never reached because of a problem in the journey (I am writing this in a place where I don’t have my books, so I can’t give references, but you can check in the shipping examples and 9th house section of Lilly, or Bonatti, etc) This is the reason why, when people ask about moving house, we use the 7th house to show the place where they would move – its nothing to do with this house being the 4th from the 4th as some modern authors explain it.

I wouldn’t argue that the 9th house can’t be used, but I personally think the 7th is best for a simple “should we go to here?”-type question. There is an interesting example in the third house section of Christian Astrology, where Lilly talks about an absent brother and says that if his significator is in the 7th house, then the brother is in the foreign country that he journeyed to; but if it is in the 9th, then he has gone on from that to somewhere remote from that place, like a monastery. I think that gives a good sense of how the 7th signifies the place we go to, whilst the 9th house is still used for those far away places.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr. farr wrote:


+Primary Indicators: Part of Travel (& its dispositor); Lord of Asc (=Venus)
+Secondary Indicators: Lord of 9th House (=Mercury); Moon (why? because Moon symbolizes "change", and "change" is implied in the nature of the current horary question)
+Tertiary Indicator: Part of Fortune ("..beginning of all actions...whatever is on the mind of the person..."Ibn Ezra)
+Relevant stars: Algorab-Baten kaitos-Markab-Rasalhague-Skat-Spica (total 6 stars)

.


Hi, dr.farr!

I do have to ask you- what kind of systematisation this is, any references?
I am aware of the fact that there are certain differences in opinions when it comes to "secondary" significators but only in terms of whether this term refers to a planet occupying the relevant house or to a planet that has natural rulership over the matter (person, object, activity etc.) involved or inquired upon. But even so, there is a certain hierarchy and it is the hierarchy of importance- the Querent and the Quesited should always come first as , along with the Moon, it's these planets that can bring about the perfection of the matter and promise a positive outcome. Having said that, the Quesited's ruler (regardless of whether you decide to give it the natural ruler, the ruler of the the 7th or the 9th cusp) being labelled as a "secondary" significator would, in my opinion, basically mean that we are de-grading it and turning it into a planet of lesser importance than L1 which, again, to me, doesn't make much sense as the Querent cannot be examined outside the whole picture - we cannot assume that the situation will result in a positive outcome based on the shape of the Quesited's ruler; we need to have a strong signs of the two parties or of the Querent and whatever it is that he or she wants to get or achieve coming together or being brought together. If we approach the chart following this hierarchy (and there should always be one), then we'd basically have to be able to brig our first conclusions solely according to the shape of the Lord of the Ascendant and I'm not sure I understand how this could be.

of course, we do have and arabic part listed among the primary significators but this makes even less sense to me- I may lack knowledge on arabic horary rules (though, I am familiar with the work of the Arabians) but I'm pretty sure that none of the main authorities have suggested that the parts cane overtake the importance of planets; for a reason- the planets and arabic parts are not in a mutually dependant relationship, it's the planets that dictate the position of these parts . So, the planets do get the first place.

And finaly- the Moon is so much more than just a significator of change, woudn't you agree? Besides, anything that we undertake is can be called a change- horary questions usually are babout changes...of various kinds. Change of job, change of residence, change of style, change of husband, change in approach... Wink
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Querent comes first: Lord of the Ascendant (Venus)
Quesited comes first: the significator of the Part of Travel (the subject matter of the interrogation, the dispositor/significator of which in this case = Saturn); the order of importance I use is solely for the emphasis I give the "top three categories" in relation to less important chart elements (relative always to the nature of the chart and of the question posed)

+Note that I am not advocating the methodology I am giving an example of here, nor do I have the least interest in attempting to justify it by philosophical or theoretical argument (basically because my own understanding of the nature of macrocosmic qualities and influences is different, in many respects, than the generally accepted "givens" of either "modern" astrology or traditional astrology, but that's another story!) All I can say is that it has worked very well for me (part of the background of my peculiar approach may be found in my postings in the "How did you learn horary" thread, which I believe you commented upon in that thread)

+As I tell my students (homeopathic and bioenergetic) at the University, if something makes sense to you, provisionally accept it and see how well it works in practice; if something does not make sense to you, forget about it!
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Aglaya

Thanks for bringing my earlier comment forward. I only hope I haven’t left the impression that I think questions regarding journeys should automatically use the 7th and not the 9th, because the difference of when to prefer the 7th rather than the 9th can be quite subtle. As a general principle it is worth looking at both, and seeing where the significators are, because the 9th and the 7th both have a natural affinity with this kind of situation.

Anyway, I agree with many of the points you made earlier, and those that Tanit made, and wanted to add a bit more to this comment:

Aglaya wrote:
If we do include the ruler of the 9th, we do have an application of an angular Moon to it and by a benevolent trine but, again, this Moon, though very "keen" on the Querent [I think you mean quesited here?], is still extremely weakend due to its placement in the first degrees of Scorpio


One very reliable principle in horary is that the Moon is always important. That’s why we allow the Moon to partly take up the signification of the querent in every situation. It is a mistake to think that the Moon will always describe the querent best though, because it shows the focus of the question, so sometimes it relates more directly to the thing asked about. Here, with the Moon angular in the first house, it becomes a very strong significator for the querent and her desire to take the overseas trip.

The Moon’s first application is the trine to Mercury, so we want to see which house(s) Mercury rules, to understand what its signification is connected to. Since Mercury governs the 9th house cusp, I think it is impossible not to judge this application of the Moon to Mercury as significant for the prospect of the overseas trip asked about. In fact I think the presence of Mercury in the 5th house is relevant too, in describing this as a long trip that is undertaken for pleasure and enjoyment (I also wonder if there could be a relationship issue involved).

For confirmation we can see that there are 8 degrees until the perfection of the trine, which corresponds with the 8 months which must pass from the time of the question (March) to the intended time of the trip (November). (The question might have said “this year” but AquariusMoonPerson (AMP) says that she was planning to go that fall, "around November", and one thing I have found for sure – horary doesn’t care about the words we use but recognises the *intention* behind the question).

So the question of whether the trip would go ahead in November as hoped does seem to be wrapped up in this aspect. Because it is a trine it might look like a good application, but (as you say) the Moon is in its sign of fall, so it doesn’t have any essential power. In the place where it meets with Mercury the Moon doesn’t gain any dignity, so it has no influence there either. Mercury, as significator for the trip, is also peregrine, in its detriment and in its fall – so that had nothing to offer to help the accomplishment either.

In a recent post I (sorry I forget where now) I mentioned how traditional authors describe an aspect from a detrimented planet into a place of debility as something that does not ‘perfect’ the matter of the question, but shows the destruction of it (or we get the references to ‘return of virtue’ when plants are too debilitated to make use of what they are given).

Here, a trine from the Moon in its fall, to Mercury in fall, can only show that what is wanted cannot be achieved. The reasons are pretty obvious from the rest of the chart and the main signification of the querent.

The answer: “it looks like you really want this, but you don’t seem able to make it happen (at the time asked about) [and from the rest of the chart] because you can’t afford it…”

Since the chart answered the querents concern of whether she would be able to afford it in the time she wanted to go, I’m not sure we need to worry about the fact that the querent went 3 few months later. The chart has the 1st ruler retrograde, showing a change of plan, and it describes a need to change a plan that wasn’t going to work. Since finances were critical, and Mercury (as 9th ruler in the 5th) seems so significant, then it *might* be relevant that by symbolic advancement Mars (7th and 2nd-ruler) changes signs and meets Mercury (the trip) after 9 and a half degrees. From the middle of March until the beginning of Feb seems to fit in with this – but that would also describe the trip as being the source of a lot of problems and financial troubles, so, either way, I think we can only judge that this chart was offering a recommendation that the trip didn’t go ahead as planned.

Thanks for the update AMP,
Deb
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AquariusMoonPerson



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:


The Moon’s first application is the trine to Mercury, so we want to see which house(s) Mercury rules, to understand what its signification is connected to. Since Mercury governs the 9th house cusp, I think it is impossible not to judge this application of the Moon to Mercury as significant for the prospect of the overseas trip asked about. In fact I think the presence of Mercury in the 5th house is relevant too, in describing this as a long trip that is undertaken for pleasure and enjoyment (I also wonder if there could be a relationship issue involved).

No romance involved she truly wants to study art and painting! But also visiting school for continuing her education, so she is choosing which schools she likes best to then apply to those.
Deb wrote:

For confirmation we can see that there are 8 degrees until the perfection of the trine, which corresponds with the 8 months which must pass from the time of the question (March) to the intended time of the trip (November). (The question might have said “this year” but AquariusMoonPerson (AMP) says that she was planning to go that fall, "around November", and one thing I have found for sure – horary doesn’t care about the words we use but recognises the *intention* behind the question).Deb

How funny she worded the horary very specifically when she casted the chart. 8 months til November Smile I would've never looked at it in that way Deb!
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