aglaya wrote:How do you mean this, PFN- you're surprised to see a dignified ruler or?

Yes. But not only that. Normally, in such a situation, I would expect a peregrine or at least a planet ruling a bad house, or inside a bad house. That's not the case here... and that bugs the hell out of me. Jupiter is not even a malefic in nature!

The only thing that I can see here that explains it a bit is that Mercury, as ruler of the querent, is inside the sign of Jupiter's enemies, Saturn and Mars, contrary to its nature and the sign of it's fall. Also, Pisces is averse to the AC, so it does not favor it. Still, for a dignified Jupiter to act as such raises, for me yet again, doubts about how essential dignity plays, doubts that have haunt me, like, forever. That's not the first time I see such a thing in a horary, and every time I see it, I'm at a loss of arguments to explain why, even to myself.

But the chart is certainly not lying so, maybe the problem is in our perception of the situation. We might find her short answer to be a bit rude , she has never paid for her bill but, at the same time, she did mention that something was wrong. Maybe we're missing the forest from the trees, maybe she is in some kind of a problem and now, after reciving elumen's last message, maybe she is a bit furious as well. If the chart says that this person is a "dignified Jupiter" than we must take it seriously and search for other potential reasons : something thast would explain her reactions and general attitude . As the Querent herself would say - us, the psychics, should know what she is going through at the moment.

Deb, the threat was actually a bluff, just to make it less comfortable for her, but I never had any intention of following up on it.

I've been meaning to come back and say that I never doubted that for a moment. I always assumed you meant it as a bluff to express your annoyance and to make her act, and didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just think that when we are working with horary we sometimes forget that we are potentially playing with fire. People might think I am unecessarily moralistic about it but, this is not your everyday job. I mean, we are only claiming to have knowledge of the future and the answer to life's problems - its really crazy when you stop to think about it...

Could the problem of this chart with the quernt's significator beeing so dignified and thus showigng a fair-minded client - by all means a not lying person - consist in the kind of the question?

The question given with the chart is wheter the client is lying at all, but the background text is suggesting that the real question has been whether the client is lying from the beginning.

So my understanding of the question is that the querent wants to know whether the client was lying from the beginning. The judgement is a clear: NO, she was honest in the beginning.

Now there is the possibility that the client really was honest in the beginning but that she decided later, during the reading for example, not to pay and - if at all - she was lying then. Thus the answer given by the chart and the rules is remaining correct the real question being considered.

Johannes

That's what I'm thinking, too, Johannes. In my experience, it is important to match the exact wording of a horary question with the chart's significations - question and answer often point to each other in quite literal ways. So, yes, given that the question was whether or not the client was lying from the beginning, her dignified significator says no, she was not.

Astraea wrote:That's what I'm thinking, too, Johannes. In my experience, it is important to match the exact wording of a horary question with the chart's significations - question and answer often point to each other in quite literal ways. So, yes, given that the question was whether or not the client was lying from the beginning, her dignified significator says no, she was not.

The quite literal coincidence of question and answer is my frequent experience too, Astraea.

For the rest the question was in fact:

elumen wrote:My question is did she lie to me from the beginning with the intent to use me, and is there any hope for me to get the money?

Hello Johannes

"The question given with the chart is wheter the client is lying at all"

No, it's not, though I think I can see where you're getting that from; I think it's a linguistic thing. The question with the chart and the question in the background do match, it's just that another meaning can be read into it linguistically, but no, there's no confusion in the original poster's question/intent/meaning.

Regards

H.

Interesting discussion. I think the client did not intend (from the beginning) to use me, but when she saw that she could get away with it, she did. After the reading, she ignored all of my messages and voice mail, and only retorted to my threat to "report her." I still have an intuition that it is OK somehow to let it go, either I do not have the full info (Neptune conj. Jupiter), or it is not a big loss for me.

Another reason why the chart may show her so dignified, is that I had been thinking about that question for a couple of days, and finally it crystallized in my mind. So is that technically the most potent moment to ask this question? In any case, given the very accurate interpretations of the situation, the chart is valid.
Perhaps the fixed star gave some clue to the situation, and the fact that Mercury is in Jupiter's sign of fall, and vise versa. This is new to me, I have not considered such factors before.

As far as the debate about the significance of the fixed stars. I think that even without the fixed stars, the answer could be derived just from the basic significators, but fixed stars add more detail and precision. I'm not familiar with their meaning, so I have not used them until now. I have not used the Arabic parts either, but still arrived at the correct results in most cases.

There were a couple of times which puzzled me though, I'm going to post one of them in a separate thread.
In general, I feel that even though there are rules in astrology, as it is highly symbolic, it is the intuitive connections that the reader makes which get the right or wrong result. Even though handn stated that he did not use intuition, just the conversion of a symbol to a specific and detailed meaning is already intuitive!
Anyway, I'm so interested in these matters. Finally after years of learning on my own and not having a good teacher to follow, I can learn something serious and useful.
Thank you everyone -- it is my reward after all!

As far as the debate about the significance of the fixed stars. I think that even without the fixed stars, the answer could be derived just from the basic significators, but fixed stars add more detail and precision. I'm not familiar with their meaning, so I have not used them until now. I have not used the Arabic parts either, but still arrived at the correct results in most cases.

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I am in complete agreement with the above sentiments. Perhaps my postings have been misinterpreted by some: what I have been saying in regard to these matters is only descriptive of what I do, and of my own, internal reasons for so doing, and my own personal belief that improvements to outcomes might be achieved along the lines of my "insights". However, in no way am I saying that what I do is "true" or "right" or "best", or that others should accept or adopt such things, and, if I have given this impression, please be aware that it was not intended! There are numerous effective astrological techniques available, and in creating my own unique "way" I am indebted to several of them. Answers from the Cosmos may be discerned exclusively from planets, often from only the Moon, sometimes exclusively by the Parts, it varies. Do we NEED stars or Parts in order to obtain reliable answers from our Cosmic interrogations? Absolutely NOT! It is only within the context of my personal outlook that I have found the stars and Parts of such clarifying assistance. But that certainly does not mean that this outlook and experience of mine is "true" or that it is superior to other approaches in expert hands.

+The intuitive question is significant. My PERSONAL belief (and experience) is that it plays a major-if indeed not dominant-role in all astrological analytical work (for if not then machines could do everything the expert astrologer could do, and there is no evidence I am aware of that this is the case) And the intuitive element directly relates to how each practitioner feels about (relates to) the sum of theories and empirical experiences which constitute their body of knowledge. One can do only what one believes they know and are capable of doing. You can't really practice effectively a method that tastes "bad" to you, that you feel you don't understand, that you feel confused about, that makes no "sense" to YOUR mind: these things block full access to your intuitive potentials, the special quality of mind that lets you see the gestalt of the various elements making up the picture, and then, from this gestalt, you derive meaningfulness relative to the particular matter under investigation.
The combination of self-confidence in whatever method you are using plus being open to YOUR own special insights, is the key to success in all Arts, including ours...

elumen wrote:I think the client did not intend (from the beginning) to use me, but when she saw that she could get away with it, she did.

The dignity of the client's significator by sign and house position, coupled with the fact that it is not in a close aspect by degree with any planet other than Pluto, makes me wonder if the client felt "holier than thou" - isolated on a mountaintop, so to speak, surrounded by echoes of her own points of view and perhaps feeling self-righteous and even martyred. She wasn't lying, but she might well have been experiencing an exaggerated sense of entitlement; and this could have resulted in her feeling justified in treating you as she did.

That Jupiter in Pisces in the 10th, unrelated by major degree aspect to any other classical planet, has a very "ivory tower" feeling to me. While I don't use outer planets to answer horary questions, I think they can add nuance to a significator's profile; here, Jupiter's tight sextile with Pluto would seem to exaggerate any tendency the client had toward heavy-handedness in defending her own position - particularly with Neptune nearby (fog on the mountaintop).

I am glad that you feel right about treating this situation as a learning experience. It's quite jarring when a professional encounter takes an unexpected turn like this, but you have already begun to incorporate what happened into your personal database and gain from it in many ways - the client's dignified Jupiter has produced benefits which she probably did not intend.

elumen wrote:In general, I feel that even though there are rules in astrology, as it is highly symbolic, it is the intuitive connections that the reader makes which get the right or wrong result. Even though handn stated that he did not use intuition, just the conversion of a symbol to a specific and detailed meaning is already intuitive!

I think that's a really important point, because although there are at least two definitions of intuitive many of the general public believe astrology to work by intuition rather than logic.

I remember the process of examining this horary chart, and really, I want to assure you that what I wrote was based just on logical deduction, nothing more. When I have intuitive thoughts it is a different process and a different feeling/sensation - I'm sure you know what I mean by that?

Astrology just works, that's all! lol

Regards

H.

Maybe it's not at all personal.

Jupiter lord 7th is very strong both accidentally and essentially, but also very tightly conjunct fixed star Fomalhaut (one of the 4 royal stars. From the Southern Fish - 'watcher of the South'). Could be that this woman is "the opposition", maybe a "righteous" person of high position in the church, whose self assigned mission is to "fight occultists or so called psychics" (just like the Vatican would denigrate Harry Potter).

After all, Jupiter is in Mercury's sign of detriment and fall (and this is mutual), so this might reflect the client's strong mistrust for the querent and maybe an intention to humiliate.

Just a speculation.