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Did the client lie to me?
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:54 am    Post subject: Did the client lie to me? Reply with quote

Greetings all;

I have a somewhat unpleasant situation but interesting from the learning point of view. Recently a client called and asked for a reading. She stated that she had been a client of mine and I did some work for her in the past, but I could not remember this person, nor the chart, when I looked at it. I spent a considerable amount of time preparing for the reading, but when the time came, the client literally spent 10 min. on the phone with me. Apparently she only wanted an answer to one particular question. I gave the answer and asked her to pay me a small amount of money, since we did not spend much time. She said sure, and a few days later I have not received any money nor any messages from her. I e-mailed a few times and left voice mails with her, but she has not responded. My question is did she lie to me from the beginning with the intent to use me, and is there any hope for me to get the money?


I'm Mercury in the 8th house in Capricorn. It seems to make sense b/c I want her to pay me (8th house). Mercury is in triplicity in Capricorn. She is Jupiter in Pisces (lord of the 7th), which is a benific planet in its domicile. Can I conclude that she did not have bad intentions from that? There is no applying aspect between Mercury and Jupiter, and the Moon applies to Venus (not relevant to this question) and then to a square with Mercury (me), so seems like no money will come. If I take 8th house sig for money coming from her it is Saturn in Libra R, the Moon has separated form it and is too far to carry the light from Saturn to Mercury. And Venus would be first to receive this light, so no contact between Saturn and Mercury, except Saturn disposes of Mercury (I'm at her disposal). So it does not seem, I'll get the money -- but how to understand her significator Jupiter -- did she intend to do it? (She is Capricorn with Gemini asc, and her natal Jupiter is in Scorpio).
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Neptune right on the MC...... (just pointing it out)
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, she intended it... Thumbs down
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1391

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think she had any intention. Her money, Saturn, is retrograding away from the Moon, ruler of YOUR money.

With the north node in her house of money, it suggest that she DOES have the money, but there doesn't seem to be any aspect suggesting it's coming to you!
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My eye also keeps going to Mars in the 3rd (afflicted communication, potential for dispute).

Your main significators are in each other's fall: Mercury is in the fall of Jupiter, and Jupiter is in the fall and the detriment of Mercury.

South node in the 2nd, your money is reduced/lost.

Moon (2nd ruler) and Saturn (8th ruler) do have mutual reception by face.

Again, just drawing out some things to add to what you've already posted about the chart.

Regards

H.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, elumen!

Do you, by any chance, have the time of her first call registered somewhere? A chart cast for that moment would be very useful!

Also, could you share her question or at least the info about the sphere of life that it pertains to with us? What is it that she wanted to know?

Quote:
Mercury in the 8th house in Capricorn. It seems to make sense b/c I want her to pay me (8th house). Mercury is in triplicity in Capricorn. She is Jupiter in Pisces (lord of the 7th), which is a benific planet in its domicile


Well, now that the situation is already behind you, I agree that we should take the fact that you've been trying to get your money and that your ruler inside the 8th probably does have a lot to do with that. Not only is your ruler inside the 8th but it is also in the detriment of the Moon (L2) and Jupiter (L7) which, again, makes me wonder, what the chart cast for the moment of her first phone call would have to say and where it would put your ruler. But I am wondering- what is the Moon doing inside the 5th?
The Moon rules the 2nd (your money) and it is applying to your ruler inside the 8th (other peoples' money) only it's a weak connection as the planets are not in mutual reception and the Moon receives L1 in its detriment. But you are right that the Quesited (your client) looks very harmless- she is represented by the Greater benefic, essentially and accidentally very strong- Lilly says that even malefic planets are less harmful when operating from their own "home" and here we have an angular and extremely well dignified benefic. Besides the fact that it does not look mean- well placed and strong Jupiter is gallant and would hardly avoid paying for his bills-it is just and sober, don't you think? Mercury (astrologer) describes you well so we have to keep in mind that the Quesited did not get this Jupiter for no reason.
So, maybe the placement of this Jupiter inside the detriment of your ruler is saying something else or hiding reasons other that trying to avoid the obligations. Again, here we have to take the fact that you have already been influenced by the situation while the chart cast for the moment of her first call would give a clear picture of her intentions and maybe say more about your role in this situation before any of this happened.
L10 (your profession) and L2 (your incomes) are both inside the 5th and their dispositor (a benefic again) is sitting on the 10th cusp- why is the 5th so stressed here?


Last edited by aglaya on Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what Aglaya's said about Jupiter, and think that Neptune on the MC is rather about confusion and mix-up, and Mars retro in the 3rd about the potential for quarrel and general afflictedness to the lines of communication (especially as Mars and Saturn are sextile).

I don't see any signs that this client is your enemy, but I do think there are several signs of unexpected occurrences.

What I'll add about Jupiter is that it's not making any aspects, and won't until the other planets change signs (which isn't imminent). It suggests to me that the woman is unconnected, or in a world of her own, or something of that nature. However, I emphasise that this is my own opinion, not something I've read in a traditional horary work and I don't know if other horary students/practitioners set store by an unaspected planet.

I also wonder about the Moon's next aspect. It's to Venus, which is not only the dispositor of Saturn and Moon, but also the hour ruler. Venus is in mutual reception with Saturn, and conjunct the part of fortune. The problem is, Venus is out of sect and combust, though moving out of combustion. Perhaps something's about to come to light or there's a window of opportunity for contact to be made.

Regards

H.
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aglaya wrote:
L10 (your profession) and L2 (your incomes) are both inside the 5th and their dispositor (a benefic again) is sitting on the 10th cusp- why is the 5th so stressed here?


With PoF in 9th along with Sun and Venus there's a lot to be gained from the professional practise of astrology both financially and in terms of honour, and perhaps there's a feeling or suspicion that it's been treated as entertainment (5th) and not taken seriously or with sufficient esteem (retro Saturn, exalted), with the natural feeling of anger (retro Mars in 3rd) that might follow from that?

Hopefully none of that's the case, and hopefully the client has just misunderstood what she needs to do or there's been a technical breakdown of communication with messages not received or being able to be acted upon just yet.

Regards

H.
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very impressed with your interpretations, everyone -- all of which are very refined and true. So here is some additional info:
After a few messages she did not respond to, I sent her a threatening message (Mars R in my 3rd), saying that if I do not get the money or some explanation from her, I'm going to report her all over internet as a non-paying client.
To that she sent me the following response (but no money or explanation Sad ):

"DO, what you have to ms. nice psychic lady!!!! If you were so psychic you would have known something happen, I tell this is why i DON'T DEAL WITH READERS..."

So I'm not sure, how to get it -- that something happened which prevented payment (but what) or that she is challenging me back.

I called her and asked to explain, but she never called back. So the message above is the only communication I got from her.

Also, her question was about some romantic interest of hers (5th house, as aglaya pointed out), with whom she could not entirely separate emotionally even though they broke up some time ago.

She took the reading as a "fortunetelling" for entertainment, she was at a barber's office when calling me for my answer Leery

I cannot get the exact moment of her first call, although what made me feel a bit suspicions at once, that she claimed to be my old client, but I have an excellent memory (my Moon is exactly trining my Mercury), and I do not remember her as my client. I felt she wanted me to relex and do the reading without asking her to pay first.

So, possibly she did not take this to be a big deal, and justified it by the fact that I did not spend much time with her. She is definitely in her "own world" as handn pointed out.

So aglaya, handn, you get these things by intuition -- or based on horary, or both -- this is so impressive!
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a b$t#h! I canīt believe a person of so low behavior would be described by jupiter in pisces, so I think the chart was mostly trying to tell you that you wouldnīt see the money you were promised.
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My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 194

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note the Desc (cusp of 7th) is conjunct fixed star Sabik (According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Saturn and Venus; and, to Alvidas, of Jupiter and Venus. It causes wastefulness, lost energy, perverted morals, and success in evil deeds. [Robson*, p.199.])

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Sabik.html
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only did a quick glance, but it is interesting that she is Jupiter in domicile because we usually associate thieves with peregrine states and at angles, and that is one thing I have also not always found to be true. Some thieves, and she did act as a thief or someone who took advantage, act out that way because they are convicts and are like desperate wanderers, whereas other people act out because it is their perception of what is right, not because they lack resources or money.

Obviously she has money, probably a great deal more than you do, with such a dignified 2nd ruler and herself being in domicile. I would be interested in seeing the horary for her question, because it might have had considerations before judgment to warn you about the querent. It seems to me that the reading was found to be incorrect by her, even if it was correct. Was the reading negative about her being with a particular romantic person?

It seems to me that she may have originally had the intention of paying, but changed her mind. The 2nd ruler being exalted but retro away from the Moon (in the 5th house, so the 5th house reading influenced her decision), and the Moon being prohibited first by Mars in the 3rd (the reading conversation), then by Sun and Venus before the final square to Mercury. The answer to your question seems like a pretty clear no to her paying you, especially with the Moon in the via combusta, though I don't think that was her original intention, you just didn't tell her what she wanted to hear. The only thing I would think that could link you again is when the Moon reaches the antiscia aspect with Jupiter towards the end of the Moon's transit in Libra, also where Moon is close to Spica/Arcturus, which might suggest that she pays you in the end, maybe in a secretive way.

I am not a person who works for compensation, but I have paid for readings myself, and I know that it is common sense that even if a reading is found to be incorrect, when you participate in a divination reading, you have to prepare yourself for the fact that the outcome may not live up to your expectations. I am sorry that your client was such a ridiculous person, and obviously shouldn't be consulting divination in the first place.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A sorry situation but an interesting chart. Your significator is Mercury in the 8th, seen to be chasing her money but weakly placed by being in a place that gives you no strength. The quesited, the money, is signified by the Moon (ruler of the 2nd house of your money/income). It is separating from Saturn, the ruler of her 2nd house. So the moment has passed.
The chart is also telling you to leave the situation alone now. The Moon applies by square to Mercury but Mercury is in the Moon's detriment, showing the potential for self-damage by pursuing this. Without a good reception then matters that perfect by a hostile square are often "better undone". I have frequently seen a difficult Mars in the querent's 3rd house manifest as threats or inflammatory arguments that hurt rather than resolve.

The Moon square Mercury is a classic signature of misinformation and unreliable reports. That seems to be what caused the problem rather than deliberate intent on her part from the start. I also think it would be useful to go back to the original chart, but maybe that's not something that you feel comfortable placing online since this is such a difficult and unhappy situation.

I know it doesn't feel good, but I do think you are best to learn from this and move on to better clients who are usually more than happy to pay in advance.
Deb
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the update, elumen.

Now, what can one do?! You won't see the money but try not to lose your nerves too! Smile it happens! Again, i wouldn't say the Querent's intentions were bad from the start. ?tho, her response indeed does not sound like a response of a person represented by well dignified Jupiter, there I agree with yuzuru.

Maybe it is a good time to check your charts to and see what caused this to happen.

Sorry you had to go through this! Wink
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello elumen

Adding my thanks to others for the update, and to answer your question yes it's horary not intuition.

Whilst Jupiter is in its own domicile it is also square to the 7th, so maybe it means the client is acting contrary to her own nature to some extent.

May your bad clients be similar to Hydra's heads - cut off one bad one and two good ones grow in its place!

Regards

H.
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