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Starting something important while Mars retrograde
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven

The heliocentric perspective focuses upon perihelion (proximity to Sun) rather than perigee (proximity to Earth), so it's not that these points are now different, but that modern astronomers are less interested in them than they used to be. In the ancient system we were also looking to find the auge - the top of the epicycle - but I am pretty sure that would be the same as the modern calculation of the apogee. (Unless I'm very much mistaken Smile)

I don't want to take the focus away from the main theme of the thread so maybe I'll start a new thread about this soon.

(I'd love to know more about your method though, when you have the time ...)

Thanks
Deb
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Steve



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Deb wrote
(I'd love to know more about your method though, when you have the time ...)


I ditto this!

Regards, Steve
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With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan
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JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm confused about the use of perigree /apogee here concerning mars. Doesn't mars revolve around the sun?


"Derivative terms are used to identify the body being orbited. The most common are perigee and apogee, referring to orbits around the Earth (Greek γῆ, gê, "earth"), and perihelion and aphelion, referring to orbits around the Sun (Greek ἥλιος, hēlios, "sun"). "
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello JulieYvonne

Looks like you're right - we're technically misusing the terms, using 'apogee' and 'perigee' in a non-conventional, but still logical, way.

I believe in astronomy what we're calling here 'perigee' would be referred to as 'closest approach', though god knows what the opposite of that is correctly termed - so far I think it's referred to as 'greatest distance'.

If anyone reading this knows, I'd like to know.

Regards

H.
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's indeed a bit confusing since we live in the heliocentric astronomy era. Apogee/perigee are now only applied to the Moon, for the planets aphelion and perihelion are used.

Quote:
I believe in astronomy what we're calling here 'perigee' would be referred to as 'closest approach', though god knows what the opposite of that is correctly termed - so far I think it's referred to as 'greatest distance'.

I think you'r right Handn, my astronomy annual writes in similar way, close, far, greatest disctance, there are no real distinct terminologies I believe.

Mars was in opposition 29 January 2010, but closest to Earth 27 January.
If the planets' orbits were perfect circles these data would coincide but since the orbits are ellipses these differences occur. Mars is in aphelion 31 March, this is called an 'aphelic opposition', so quite the opposite of the close opposition of 2003 which was a 'perihelic opposition'.

Here's a list of Mars oppositions and closest approaches
http://seds.org/~spider/spider/Mars/marsopps.html , 'dist AU' is the distance to Earth measured in Astronomical Units (i.e. the distance of the Earth to the Sun approximately, 150,000,000km).
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Eddy

Thanks for writing about what your astronomy annual says and the terminology it uses, it's useful to know.

Regards

H.
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JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clearing that up, handn.

Getting back to the OP, I was a little startled that there was such a tepid response to the basic question of starting a job with mars Rx. Is this because astrologers here have no personal experience with the Rx, or that it is not the right question for this forum, or traditional sources are silent?

The retrograde cycle of mars is unique of the superior planets in that it does not trine the sun during its retrograde phase, forming only the quincunx and opposition. For this reason alone it is said to have an extremely unsettling and disruptive influence during the Rx phase. In addition, the relative rarity of mars Rx, compared to the other superior planets, would indicate it is a difficult energy to assimilate. We are not "used" to it.

Why would anyone want to begin anything under these conditions?
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handn



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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing this example Steven, it's very interesting.

Here's the chart wheel.

Regards

H.

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JulieYvonne



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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Rx is only a small part of the planets zodiacal state


I disagree strongly. I believe mercury, venus and mars are profoundly altered by retrograde status.

Quote:
My point in this is that even had Mars been Rx, it has absolutely no relationship to the matter at hand and what was being started.


Surely you see the problem here? You offer an electional chart to prove mars Rx had no effect, but mars wasn't Rx. I don't understand how this chart supports your theory. In your chart mars is separating from saturn in the 12th house. Perhaps if mars had been moving back to conjunct saturn and perfect the square to jupiter we would have another marital story.

I can't comprehend the idea that mars has "absolutely no relationship" to beginnings, no matter what they are.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JulieYvonne wrote:
Quote:
Rx is only a small part of the planets zodiacal state


I disagree strongly. I believe mercury, venus and mars are profoundly altered by retrograde status.

Quote:
My point in this is that even had Mars been Rx, it has absolutely no relationship to the matter at hand and what was being started.


Surely you see the problem here? You offer an electional chart to prove mars Rx had no effect, but mars wasn't Rx. I don't understand how this chart supports your theory. In your chart mars is separating from saturn in the 12th house. Perhaps if mars had been moving back to conjunct saturn and perfect the square to jupiter we would have another marital story.

I can't comprehend the idea that mars has "absolutely no relationship" to beginnings, no matter what they are.


Julie, sorry for being blunt, but that's probably because you do not understand traditional astrology's most basic principles and general ideas.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Paulo, how can you say that? It doesn't seem right to make such a sweeping assumption unless you personally know Julie's background. I can't see that being the inevitable conclusion of the point she made, which seems fair enough doesn't it? The example, interesting as it was, didn't actually feature a retrograde Mars. Maybe I am missing something? (I must admit I've had to read the comments quickly - out of concern that we don't make personal criticisms about individual abilities).

Quote:
Quote:
Rx is only a small part of the planets zodiacal state


I disagree strongly. I believe mercury, venus and mars are profoundly altered by retrograde status.


It is nothing to do with the zodiacal state, of course, which is why it is an accidental testimony rather than an essential one. But that doesn't mean it is not important. In a general sense retrograde motion is very significant in terms of what is happening to the planet's apparent movement and expressed influence; in context of course.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:
Julie, sorry for being blunt, but that's probably because you do not understand traditional astrology's most basic principles and general ideas.


Hello Deb,

That's why I said probably. Still, supposing Julie does have the background and my assumption was hasty (for which, indeed, I would apologize) I still do believe she to be putting an emphasis on retrogradation that is over exaggerated. On her first post she said:

JulieYvonne wrote:
I would never, ever start a new job with inner planets retrograde if it could be avoided, but, as someone said, if you can't control the date and you want the job, you're stuck (...) Mars retro for marriage is really unfortunate. Mars rules the procreative principle, so I hope they're in total agreement about the kid issue.


If the planet has no accidental or natural relation and does not afflict what you seek after, what's to fear? And if you're electing something and can seal it cadent without hurting important planet's, just like in the example Steven gave, you can avert it's evil (supposing the radix chart does not say otherwise, of course). Also, often retrogradation just unleashes something that may already be present in the natal chart, so you have to understand the proper context. To just say we should always avoid Mars or any other planet retrograde is absurd, cause it's not impossible or that rare to it's retrogradation bring about something good, despite the usual delay or suddenness related to it.

I do accept that Mars have correlation to the "initiation" of things, through the "principle of initiactive" (but not to the procreative one, that's the Moon and Jupiter territory, correct me if I'm wrong) but not always is he in charge or have that much say in "begginings". What if Saturn put too much pressure or Jupiter offered too much goodness? If my natal Mars or a transiting Mars is retrograde, I should and/or will just sit and wait? And if I do not, everything blows? It's less about Mars than other planets and their interactions most of the time (after all, it's 6x1). Instead of avoiding, it would be better if we understand what something especifically means beforehand, cause retrogradation can or can not be that important. It's the confluence of testimonies that will show the truth, not a single one.

That's not to say I do not believe retrogradation to be a debility, cause I do, but to state it's all this doom is to generalize things and worse, put a weight on it that it does not have by itself. And this idea is modern in my opinion, and widespread in a inconsequential manner as even in the tv news we see from time to time the dread of Mercury retrograde spreading like the fear of the H1N1.
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Last edited by PFN on Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I dare someone to challenge my first statement because for that I will list you dozens of refrences in what the ancients wrote as well as give you dozens of examples.


No one needs to draw pistols at dawn over this. My interjection was out of concern that people discuss this respectfully and with an openness to varying opinions, because I have seen too many threads turn into demonstrations of their topic header. Personally I think that planetary phase is the foundation of planetary understanding and retrograde motion is part of that; but I wouldn’t disagree with your point Steven that every planet is not always a cause for concern. On the other hand I don’t believe that Julie was suggesting that we stay in bed until the event passes either. I think she was generalising about those situations where Mars is significant. However, this is not something that really concerns me either way.

PFN, to suggest that someone does not understand even the *most basic principles and general ideas* is bound to make that person feel insulted or to want to respond in kind. I’m not concerned whether Julie has “the background” or not – and I hope that she realises that she won’t benefit by justifyingy her right to comment here. She expressed a strong disagreement upon one particular point but she was not disrespectful to anyone. Hence her comment should have been responded to by picking up one of her points, or it should have been left unanswered.


And with that I leave for the weekend. Tom will have to worry about this thread now Smile

Deb
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JulieYvonne



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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No worries Deb, I'm not taking the bait. Your comments were much appreciated, though, and helpful in this regard.

Besides, my dueling pistol rusted, thanks to Mars Rx.
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PFN



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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JulieYvonne wrote:
Getting back to the OP, I was a little startled that there was such a tepid response to the basic question of starting a job with mars Rx. Is this because astrologers here have no personal experience with the Rx, or that it is not the right question for this forum, or traditional sources are silent?

The retrograde cycle of mars is unique of the superior planets in that it does not trine the sun during its retrograde phase, forming only the quincunx and opposition. For this reason alone it is said to have an extremely unsettling and disruptive influence during the Rx phase. In addition, the relative rarity of mars Rx, compared to the other superior planets, would indicate it is a difficult energy to assimilate. We are not "used" to it.

Why would anyone want to begin anything under these conditions?


Deb, the only reason I answered the way I did was because of this comment. Although I over reacted, I do find very unpolite to question astrologers personal experience about the subject in such a subreptitious manner, or hint that traditional authorities are silent just because she did not agree and/or wholy understood some of the points that were being made in previous posts.

Everyone has the right to ask, but why not going on and reading some of the previous posts and threads about the subject on the forum or some articles available on the site dealing with the traditional perspective of astrology, before questioning how it works? It's a common thing for people to just land here full of questions or opinions when there's plenty of material for study on the forum that could be englightening and save everyone some time. I believe that to be the best route to take before sharing a opinion about anything without understanding or accepting the possible arguments that will be made against it.

Anyway, I suggest it's time to drop this cause noone will profit further from this discussion. The answers now are anything but tepid, and although in an aflame manner, I believe usefull examples and opinions have been provided. We all would be better returning to the topic itself, if anyone feels that anything should be added.
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