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Should we go to Mexico with kids in Feb?
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:53 am    Post subject: Should we go to Mexico with kids in Feb? Reply with quote

Greetings astrologers,

I've not done a lot of travel horaries, so I'd love an input from other experienced astrologers. We are considering a vacation trip to Mexico from the US with our two toddlers, and I'm wondering if we should go for it or not.
Our financial situation is not so great, and our kids are small, so I wonder if it is a good idea to go on vacation with them, and to spend money now. On the other hand, we have not had any vacation for the last 3 years, and we all need one for sure!


I look at the chart, and the first thing that is noticeable that the Moon is VOC, so am I to conclude that we "should not" go (since this is how I ask my question), or that is it not going to happen?
If that's an indication of "not to worry, go" than looking at our sig -- Venus in Via Combasta does not seem great, although Venus and Saturn (sig of Mexico if I use the 4th house) are in mutual reception, so that seem to be favorable. Still Saturn is R, in the 12th house and very close to Asc, so is it a "no, do not go, and nothing will come out of it anyway?"
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Elumen

As this is quite new to you, hope you don’t mind that I pointed out some technical confusions in your post.
Quote:
I look at the chart, and the first thing that is noticeable that the Moon is VOC, so am I to conclude that we "should not" go (since this is how I ask my question), or that is it not going to happen?
If that's an indication of "not to worry, go" than…


The Moon is within orb of its application to Saturn so I wouldn’t define it as VOC,personally. If it was, we can’t assume a VOC Moon means ‘nothing to worry about’. A more reliable ‘quick definition’ is that it shows a lack of momentum to drive the event forward. It’s worth giving some time to understanding what it means for the Moon to lose its focus, so you might find the article on this link helpful:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/moon2.html
Quote:
Venus in Via Combasta does not seem great


Venus is combust of the Sun, but not in the Via Combusta which is an area of the zodiac spanning Libra and Scorpio. You can check the terms in the glossary in the top links. Venus has a weak influence when it is combust, so it cannot 'make things happen' very easily.
Quote:
although Venus and Saturn (sig of Mexico if I use the 4th house)


The 4th house is your usual home. The destination of a move or journey is usually shown by the 7th and its ruler. That would be Mars which is retrograde and separating from the opposition of your significator. I wonder if the separation suggests that the decision not to go has effectively been made already; but you are not happy about it – so just wanted to check what the chart had to say?

Quote:
Still Saturn is R, in the 12th house and very close to Asc, so is it a "no, do not go, and nothing will come out of it anyway?"


Because it is within 5 degrees, you can consider Saturn’s influence as being tied to the ascendant and 1st house. This, and the fact that there is a lot of difficult signification involved, seems to indicate that the trip is beyond your means for now. The Moon’s out-of-sign sextile to Saturn might also show that changing to a more conservative plan will bring more personal satisfaction. That’s just my take for you to consider,

Deb
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb

"The destination of a move or journey is usually shown by the 7th and its ruler."

Why the 7th, out of interest? I would have assumed 9th?

Elumen

Lord 2 retrograde probably demonstrates the idea that you're finances aren't in great condition.
Lord 9 is in the fourth house suggesting the idea that you're not going to be travelling.
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moon casting her antiscia to the 9th is your contemplation of the long journey. Venus, lady of the 1st house on the 5th, including both the children and concept of a vacation.

The question is asked in the Hour of the Sun, who is Lord of the 11th house. Mars, lord of the 7th and signifier of the destination, is on the 11th house of your hopes and wishes. Venus, Lady of the 1st, is combust but since the Sun is Lord of Hour and ruler of the 11th - you will be alright. Mars, lord of the 7th, translates the virtue of Venus, L1, back to the Sun, L11, who is his dispositor. This would indicated hopes and wishes being met. A planet applying to any aspect of its dispositor will allow perfection, but the tricky ingredience in this particular case is that any planet within 2 degrees of the opposition of the Sun, if this be the significator of any thing, is likely to be disregarded, postponed or put to one side. In my opinion the opposition between Mars and the Sun has the final word and the trip is unlikely to be hosted.

The Moon does not perfect any aspect in the sign she is in, but she may perform to some good cause or offer some protection from her own sign Cancer (or a sign ruled by the fortunes). There is then, as Deb says, an opportunity to reconsider and redirect when the Moon enters the next sign. Saturn retrograde on the ascendant might not want to over-reach and when the Moon comes to this sextile there is likely to be an alternative that is both practical and reasonable. Smile
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul
The 9th house indicates long journeys into remote places, so this probably does need some explanation.

The 9th house is a cadent house which is descriptive of ‘alien’ (ie., unfamiliar) environments, but the 7th house also has a strongly developed tradition of signifying the place where we move to or journey to. Hence, in a question about a journey, the 7th afflicted could show trouble in the destination, or the significator retrograde could show that the destination is never reached because of a problem in the journey (I am writing this in a place where I don’t have my books, so I can’t give references, but you can check in the shipping examples and 9th house section of Lilly, or Bonatti, etc) This is the reason why, when people ask about moving house, we use the 7th house to show the place where they would move – its nothing to do with this house being the 4th from the 4th as some modern authors explain it.

I wouldn’t argue that the 9th house can’t be used, but I personally think the 7th is best for a simple “should we go to here?”-type question. There is an interesting example in the third house section of Christian Astrology, where Lilly talks about an absent brother and says that if his significator is in the 7th house, then the brother is in the foreign country that he journeyed to; but if it is in the 9th, then he has gone on from that to somewhere remote from that place, like a monastery. I think that gives a good sense of how the 7th signifies the place we go to, whilst the 9th house is still used for those far away places.

Deb
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Deb, I at least see the logic behind it now! In this particular example it is not a case of moving house, but just a vacation. Would you consider all 'holidaying abroad' to be 7th House matters then, as opposed to 9th? Like if I were to be thinking of going away to the Canary Islands for two weeks, would that be 7th? Sorry if this is distracting the OP from the question!
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only have time for a very quick comment as I'm leaving for a journey myself. I don't think I can wrap this up in a nutshell because it really depends upon context. I'm not sure horary is the best type of astrology to be making decisions about holidays - in general its probably best to look at the natal chart for that. Where there is concern we have to understand the essence of the question. If the question is simply 'should I go'? then the 7th house will do it. If you have any doubt, check how the signification describes the known situation.
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello elumen

Just adding to the comments already posted.

I think it's very interested how Venus, signifying you and your family, is right on the cusp of the 5th house, showing the need for some fun (Venus joys in the 5th), whilst Saturn, the ruler of the 5th house, is conjunct the Ascendant towards the 12th side (Saturn has its joy in the 12th). Their mutual reception perhaps shows a keen interest/need to have some recreation and some good old fashioned fun.

Since you mentioned money, Mars rules the 2nd house but is retrograde and afflicted by the Sun, as Andrew's pointed out.

Venus is doubly afflicted, once by being combust, and a second time by being opposite Mars. No wonder you want to get away for a while!

In short, seems to me the chart is saying you really need some fun (who wouldn't with Saturn on the Asc?!) but that it would have to be inexpensively done.

Holidays, especially expensive ones and far away from home, can be very stressful and counterproductive. Perhaps some other leisure or fun can be had closer to home and without financial repercussions.

Regards

H.
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Carol



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the decision of using the 7th or the 9th, I think it's interesting how those two significators along with many others all seem to be saying "stay home" right now.

First of all, Mars/L7/trip is on the cusp of the 11th of hopes and wishes but going retrograde back into the 10th of career/work, perhaps indicating it would be better for the querents to focus on the latter.

Also, Sun/dispositor of Mars/L7 and L2, is in the 5th, combusting Venus/querents, showing they and their finances would be "burned out" by a far-away vacation right now.

Using the 9th for the long distance vacation, Merc/L9 is in the 4th of home, conjunct the nadir and NN, again stressing that home is the place to be right now.

Further, Saturn/L5/L4 is conjunct the Asc. and in mutual reception with Venus/L1/querents, suggesting a creative "stay-cation" might be more fun.

So lots of things seem to be pointing over and over to just staying home right now!

Edit: I just noticed that handn posted just before me and said some similar things, so some of this might be a bit redundant.
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:19 am    Post subject: Thanks! Reply with quote

Thank you everyone for such in-depth interpretations and corrections. A bit embarrassed for I'm a professional astrologer and not "new" to it, but humbled by the knowledge and precision so great! Definitely inspired to read Lilly, Bonati, and other authors mentioned here. I was actually trained with Morin's method but we have not focused much on horary (so that I picked up from modern textbooks.)

Now about the technical details (being a researcher myself, I appreciate the exactness Wink. As far as I understand (based on the article published on this website) different authorities were of different opinion as to when the Moon is VOC? Deb, I understand your comment is based on Lilly's method? In my case the Moon will apply to a sextile with Saturn in 9* (after it changes the signs), so isn't it a bit wide of an orb, even if we consider it not VOC? In any case, I followed a more traditional approach by considering the MOON VOC for not making any applying aspect within the sign. In my personal and professional experience the traditional rule seemed to work OK, although perhaps I did not offer such fine tuned details in my interpretations.

Second, I did consider Saturn affecting the 1st house, as it sits on the Asc and within the orb. As far as which house to use for travel, I have used the 4th b/c of how I phrased my question -- I name the specific location, rather than just saying "shall we go for a trip abroad?" (in which case I would use the 9th).

All of your delineations are very in-depth and helpful. The situation is that I had not made a decision to not go (until I read and thought about your replies). After evaluating all the answers, and my own intuition about this situation, I've reluctantly let it go. It may still happen at a later time, should our financial situation improve, and I have other (cheaper) options for a vacation. I suppose the chart reflected my deeper sense that we should not go for it now but I still might have gone for it. Your advice impacted my final decision to at least postpone our trip.
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handn



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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello elumen

Thanks for taking the time to post your feedback, especially so promptly, it's always helpful from a learning point of view to hear back about a chart.

Hope you enjoy your family holiday, whatever form it takes and wherever you decide to go.

H.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: Thanks! Reply with quote

elumen wrote:

Now about the technical details (being a researcher myself, I appreciate the exactness Wink. As far as I understand (based on the article published on this website) different authorities were of different opinion as to when the Moon is VOC?


Well, it is true. In the article mentioned by Deb you will find this LINK - there you can find Void of Course Moon References.
Some are suggesting that the Moon is VOC when it does not make any major aspects before leaving the sign, others like Abiu Ma'shar say that:

"It is 'void of course' if a planet separates from application with a planet in conjunction or aspect, and does not apply to a planet as long as it is in its sign. "
You might also come across readings that include outer planets and decide not to declare Moon VOC when it is applying to an outer planet or forming an aspect with it from the sign that they're currently occupying.
Besides, the Moon can also be "temporarily VOC" (maybe I should mention that many or some astrologers here on forum tend to call such Moon void as opposed to Void of Course) and that means that the Moon will either start applying to or form an aspect with another planet from the sign it is currently in only it is still outside the orb of that application. You can find more informations on it in the first article as well. Lilly was obviously paying a lot of attention to a such placement of the Moon but did not a priori use it as a sign of the lack of potentiality or a negative sign but rather as descriptive of the upcoming period or the period before the action.
So, you will come across some finesses in approaches that will depend upon the specific placement ofthean applying aspects ( accross the sign applicationa) as promising signs considering that a planet that is already within the orb of its next application, has started receving the influences of the other one. Naturally, you will also find different approaches when it comes to "crossing the sign boundary" as well. Wink
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Carol



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elumen wrote:
Quote:
As far as I understand (based on the article published on this website) different authorities were of different opinion as to when the Moon is VOC? Deb, I understand your comment is based on Lilly's method? In my case the Moon will apply to a sextile with Saturn in 9* (after it changes the signs), so isn't it a bit wide of an orb, even if we consider it not VOC?


Lilly gives the Moon a 12-degree orb and Saturn 10 degrees, which would result in an 11-degree orb between them (12+10=22, 1/2 of which is 11), so the 9+ degrees between that applying sextile between Moon and Saturn is well within those boundaries.

BTW, thanks so much for the detailed feedback!
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Thanks Deb, I at least see the logic behind it now! In this particular example it is not a case of moving house, but just a vacation. Would you consider all 'holidaying abroad' to be 7th House matters then, as opposed to 9th?

The 7th house is like crossing a bridge between worlds. It shows partnership and contracts but also your project, focus and destination. It shows where and what you want to reach, the object of your journey, your seek of confirmation and what you are seeking to illuminate or be mirrored through.

I conceive the 9th house more as being the vision of stretching. It is the 3rd house from the 9th and allows you to 'get about' and frequent 'out there'. Turn it the other way around; the 7th house represents partnership - but the 9th house represents marriage as a legalized act or institution.

The 9th house represents higher education that provides you the legal and formal degree or certificate that is you admission card to expand out into the world and perform your acts of self-realization. In terms of travel the 9th is very like a passport that facilitates the prospect of long distant travel.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elumen,
Regarding the Void of Course Moon there does either seem to be different opinions or a misconception on this subject. But I don't view this as an argument, it is more like we are trying to figure it out and are using different words. The following is simply my perspective on the issue:

While I agree that the Moon applying to a planet in the begining of the next sign (or by major aspect) does give the Moon an objective and appointment, it is still like an uncertain promise that has to be treated in new circumstances, in the next room, in another setting and on another day. Matters are heading somewhere but must still be considered 'void' for the present. However, it is my opnion, and I don't know whether it is written anywhere, that the planet the moon is applying to should be in the first 3 degrees of the next sign. The 3 last degrees of a sign are restless, so the ascendant within the last 3 degrees of a sign was traditionally thought of as a stricture because matters had gone to far, where already decided or taken out of hands. In contrast the first 3 degrees of a sign has to do with forming new references. A planet that is direct and in the first degree of a sign has no references, since all of these are left behind in the sign it just has come out of. When a planet is 3 degrees into a sign it has got its bearings and does not relate to the past sign in the same manner. This 'truth' is also reflected and symbolically represented by the Moon being exalted in 3 Taurus, which I personally interpret at being the 4th degree of Taurus because it is at this point the Moon is 15 degrees separate the exaltation degree of the Sun and thus receives her elevation in this point. This is a fortitude that Al Biruni calls 'vazarite' that is a condition that also is valid for other planets as they depart from under the Sun's beams.

Then there is the consideration whether the Moon be in the signs where she either herself has dignity or these places are ruled by the fortunes Venus and Jupiter. The Moon is said to be able to perform from these places. This, I perceive, as being because matters are offered protection and tend to work out to a good cause, so there is less to worry about.
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