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A question of theft

 
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:00 am    Post subject: A question of theft Reply with quote

Who is the thief and how do they get in?

An elderly woman, previously employed at an embassy abroad, has over a period of several years experienced various valuables disappear from her flat. Since she arrived to the block 8 years ago she has experienced numerous items being removed and gone. The woman has quite exquisite taste and the list of stolen goods ranges from art, china, classy glass and clothes like leather jackets. She has had the locks changed and an alarmsystem put in. When she came back from travelling last Autumn, maintenance work had been done in her kitchen. She still asks how they got in, how the alarmsystem was turned off and why she wasn't notified. Items continue to disappear.

Her question is: Who is the thief? Is there one or several, male or female? Is it one of her neighbours and friends, or a caretaker or handyman? The woman says there are several caretakers - mainly men in their 20's-30's. May any of the goods be recovered? She approached one of the caretakers who said that her neighbours stole. But then if this is true, how do they get in?



The question is asked on the Day of the Moon and in the Hour of Saturn. There is no agreement between the ascendant and the lord of the hour, so the chart is not radical - and either something is not working satisfactory or the truth may provide no happy situation. The lord of the Hour, is in the 7th house, which deals with matters of theft.

The querent is ruled by the lord of the ascendant, Jupiter, who is in Pisces in the 12th, which agrees with her occupation in a foreign administration. The Moon is Void of Course and pertending towards the cusp of the 2nd house of personal belongings. Her first aspect in the next sign is her dexter square through signs of short ascension to Jupiter, her own significator. This makes be believe that the chart can provide information that will allow the woman to solve the problem and find solutions for the future.

Any suggestions?
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Andrew, interesting chart!

(why didn't she remove those precious things from the house?! Sad )

I'm using regio just like you though, I'm really not used to charts cast for such high latituted (wow! Smile ) so we're left with a "reduced" number of rulerships .....

I don't think I can locate the Quote in CA at the moment as i don't have the book at hand but Lilly does say somewhere that the Querent could expect the damage to be coming from the house where the South node is placed. In this case it is inside the 6th (tenants).
Now, we might take the 7th cusp and its ruler to be the respresentatives of the stealer (which i would generally do) in which case, we might me talking about a younger person or a bit older, rough or mature looking (Mercury in Capricorn), potentially a woman.

But, in this particular case, I'd actually go for this Mars. Especially since both the 7th and the house that rules the Querent's property are ruled by the same planet.
Mars is peregrine, retrograde (repeated activities) and cadent and, though not sirectly affecting the L1, it is placed inside the house that is out of sight of the Querent and it beholds the house where the L1 is placed by opposition. Cadent and peregrine- it might be the description of the stealer. This panet is in the house of tenants and in the detriment of the natural ruler of older people. Besides, it is disposed by the Sun, another cadent planet that is actually currently burning the natural ruler of dear and precious, valuable things- Venus. Mars is moving backwards towards the opposition with that conjunction again. So valuable objects are being stolen or the damage in regard to them is received by the dispositor if this planet sitting in the house of tenants- maybe not the tenat but someone close to him or in agreement with him (the applying aspects could be indicating helper/s). In this case, it could be a younger, strong male servant (maybe partially bald- just a hint, 'tho) or someone with these characteristics who is close to a male servant. double fire- maybe energetic if not arrogant.

If the Mars indeed is the representative of the stealer than its retrograde motion should be taken with caution.

Now, as for the Moon, it is about to "hit" the sign boundary and it could be a good sign of change..of some kind or, a sign of a new phase, hopefully a better one. The Moon has actually already started applying to L1, it is on the cusp of the house that rulers the Querent's proptery and, after perfecting this square, it will basically start translating the light towards the dispositor of the L2 (sitting inside the "other person's house).
I'm not sure as to what you would say but, could this be a trace of some of her posesions going back to her. This Saturn is very confusing- the L2 is not retrograde but is applying to the Ascendant by a benevolent aspect. Its dispositor is retrogare but placed inside the 7th...very, very tricky.


Last edited by aglaya on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturn in the 7th is a warning against judgement as perhaps is the Moon being void of course.

Moon in Taurus probably adaquately describes her if she has expensive taste. It is approaching conjunction to the fixed star alcyone. I'm not a big fixed star lover so I'll just ignore it, but being the star central to Pleaides might suggest poor sight.

Mercury, ruler of the 7H, is in the 11th in Capricorn. Perhaps a friend is stealing from her? Someone she trusts? Possibly a woman (in a feminine sign) and someone she used to work with (capricorn?). This might make sense anyway as Mercury is, I think, the planet naturally associate with theft.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your early responses.
Paul wrote:
Saturn in the 7th is a warning against judgement

I often wonder how this stricture worked. Whether the astrologer's judgement was impaired or misfortune was projected upon the place of the artist. I, for one, do not put a chart aside as soon as I see Saturn in the 7th house, but it could be a useful cautioning or reminder. In this chart, Saturn, Lord of the Hour in the 7th house of theft, verifies the chart.

Quote:
Mercury, ruler of the 7H, is in the 11th in Capricorn. Perhaps a friend is stealing from her? Someone she trusts? Possibly a woman (in a feminine sign) and someone she used to work with (capricorn?). This might make sense anyway as Mercury is, I think, the planet naturally associate with theft.

This is very good. I had my mind going backwards and forewards between whether Mercury in Capricorn was the caretaker, who is in duty and holding the keys, or whether the 11th house was one of her friends and perhaps a neighbour (Mercury) that could be descriped by Capricorn. Mercury is the general significator of thiefs and maybe he is a more obvious culprit rather than Saturn, lord of the hour, in the 7th who is exalted (although in retrograde and in a tough spot with his square to Pluto). Saturn is intercepted and I think we might have to work out what that means in this specific case. Mercury in a feminine sign could be a woman, but the chart might indicated that there is likely to be one thief rather than several? My mind is not made yet. Are there more details here that reveal the location of the thief?

I will have to read through aglaya's comments again. Smile
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Tanit
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the angles are mutable, so this may take a while to resolve. I wouldn't take the Moon as void here because it is in Taurus, sign of Venus, and its exaltation. The Moon can function. It's also about to enter a sign of Mercury, Mercury being the 2nd ruler.

I would check that the ASC fits the querent. Jupiter just changed signs and is in the 12th house, so the querent is going through some sort of recent change. Pisces, especially in the 12th I'd gather, is associated with low vitality and ill health, and a shorter woman with some flesh to her. Jupiter is occidental, so she might have light brown or flaxen hair and a clear complexion.

There are multiple types of items lost, and so different sigs might point to where they are, though the 2nd ruler is the primary sig. Saturn rules leather, Moon glass, Venus jewelry, Sun things of great value (the art work?). Venus/Sun seems like the one she is least likely to find, by being cadent in the unfortunate 12th and combust, so well hidden and far off, with no aspect within orb of the querent/Moon/ASC. Her leather may be in a room associated with her spouse, if she has/had one. Her glass may be in the right place.

Quote:
I don't think I can locate the Quote in CA at the moment as i don't have the book at hand but Lilly does say somewhere that the Querent could expect the damage to be coming from the house where the South node is placed.


Mars does fit the caretakers, and I wouldn't mess with a peregrine, retro malefic either. Criminals are usually peregrine too, and there is future contact between Mars and Venus/Sun via opposition. Mars retro does seem to suggest something repeated. Mercury, 2nd ruler, was recently retro as well. Lilly also says that the last aspect that the ASC ruler makes shows how the items were lost, and the last planet to aspect Jupiter is the Moon, which is the 6th ruler (also a sig for older women though, so she could have lost the items herself).

My best friend recently had some break ins, and the 7th house had multiple parties involved, but Mars in Leo was the the ruler conjunct the 5th house, and it was several teenagers, some of them not yet legal age. Leo to me can sometimes indicate younger people.

Venus does seem to be a main factor in these types of items, but Mercury is the 2nd (posessions) and 4th ruler (where the item may be located), and it's in Capricorn in the 11th. Succeedent/earth/Cap can be outside far off (like a storage, toolplace, underground somewhere), Capricorn/11th is southeast of her. Mercury oriental is also east. The 11th is friends, aquaintances, and a place where people meet socially. The objects are more than 30 degrees and less than 70 degrees from her, so they are not in her home, though in the same town. A moveable sign says they are being moved around a lot, so maybe being sold, etc.
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Tanit
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I often wonder how this stricture worked. Whether the astrologer's judgement was impaired or misfortune was projected upon the place of the artist. I, for one, do not put a chart aside as soon as I see Saturn in the 7th house, but it could be a useful cautioning or reminder. In this chart, Saturn, Lord of the Hour in the 7th house of theft, verifies the chart.


It isn't a warning against judgement so much as a consideration before judgement. I think it may speak of some confusion by the astrologer, especially when the 7th ruler is retro or Saturn is retro in the 7th. When I find a 7th ruler retro or Saturn in the 7th (or 1st if I am querent), I sometimes feel undecided about a chart, even if I come to the right conclusion.
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Tanit
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my friend's case, the 7th house was key in regards to the thieves though, so maybe Mercury and Saturn are the perps. My friend had 7th ruler Mars, with Sun and Mercury in the 7th also. She was broken into twice and there were four thieves, two were brothers (Mercury?), one was underage (Mars in Leo conjunct 5th).

If this is true, there may be multiple people working together, with Mercury ruling the 7th and Saturn in the 7th. Mercury is feminine, Saturn is masculine. Mercury would more likely do Saturn's biding, since Saturn is its dispositor and a retro malefic in an angular house. There is some 11th house connections too, as Paul first mentioned, so I would wonder about friends who are enemies.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aglaya wrote:
Now, we might take the 7th cusp and its ruler to be the respresentatives of the stealer (which i would generally do) in which case, we might me talking about a younger person or a bit older, rough or mature looking (Mercury in Capricorn), potentially a woman. But, in this particular case, I'd actually go for this Mars. Especially since both the 7th and the house that rules the Querent's property are ruled by the same planet.

Interesting remarks regarding Mars. I'll give it some thought, although I'm favouring Mercury as the significator of the thief at the moment. I think you description of Mercury in Capricorn is interesting. It could be a rather cool, mithering and mean person. I notice Mercury is in his own terms, so maybe it is a woman who was a secretary, clerk or someone who sat in the till in a shop? In the face of the Sun I think she could take some place or be haughty. Maybe Mercuy in the face of the Sun is a way of including the misbehaviour of Mars.

Tanit wrote:
I would check that the ASC fits the querent. Jupiter just changed signs and is in the 12th house, so the querent is going through some sort of recent change. Pisces, especially in the 12th I'd gather, is associated with low vitality and ill health, and a shorter woman with some flesh to her. Jupiter is occidental, so she might have light brown or flaxen hair and a clear complexion.

I have only spoken with the querent on the phone. She seems quite fluttery, although resourceful and alert. She travels a bit, has lived abroad and lead an interesting life.
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aglaya



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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew Bevan wrote:
Aglaya wrote:
Now, we might take the 7th cusp and its ruler to be the respresentatives of the stealer (which i would generally do) in which case, we might me talking about a younger person or a bit older, rough or mature looking (Mercury in Capricorn), potentially a woman. But, in this particular case, I'd actually go for this Mars. Especially since both the 7th and the house that rules the Querent's property are ruled by the same planet.

Interesting remarks regarding Mars. I'll give it some thought, although I'm favouring Mercury as the significator of the thief at the moment. I think you description of Mercury in Capricorn is interesting. It could be a rather cool, mithering and mean person. I notice Mercury is in his own terms, so maybe it is a woman who was a secretary, clerk or someone who sat in the till in a shop? In the face of the Sun I think she could take some place or be haughty. Maybe Mercuy in the face of the Sun is a way of including the misbehaviour of Mars.

.


You're right, Andrew, I would not exclude the Sun either way. like I said prebviously, I usually tend to stick to the 7th in such questions but here a peregrine Malefic in the house of the tenants and with the South Node did seem like a good candidate.
But, still- all of the objects from your list (the stolen ones) are described by Venus and so- the Sun that is currently damaging that planet inside the 12th should be taken seriously. From there, like you're suggesting, we can include Mars again.


And, yes, Mercury could be descriptive of her occupation as well- a secretary, a woman...very likely, yes. A serious one, tho'. By being in terms of the Sun- it coud be another link back to the combust Venus.

I don't know what this woman's diplomatic rank is but, since the 7th is described by mercury, we could just as well be talking about one of her subordinates , if, of course, they can at all be potential suspects!

An interesting chart, indeed!
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aglaya



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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, waite the minute ! Smile What if the things are not at all stolen?!
The Moon is about to leave the sign it is currently occupying but it is also applying to L1, also the Greater Benefic. Besides, it is on the 2nd cusp - that's nice. It's last aspect is that with Mars (i hope I'm seeing it correcty) or Neptune for that matter- those could be good clues too (hw the things got lost). Venus, the natural ruler of precious things is combust but that does not necessarily need to mean- stolen or damaged; maybe they are invisible, out of sight, hidden...it is cadent too. The ruler of her second went into the 11th, maybe she left some of things at her friend's . Maybe
I just thought it was worth double-checking. Maybe it was the tenant who misplaced them but what if they're not stolen?!
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aglaya

What if they're still stolen, but with the culprit ascertained, the goods are recovered?
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can Saturn exalted in Libra intercepted in the 7th house indicate the caretaker(s) and maintenance workers who have the keys to get into the apartment at ease and can turn the power off to deactivate the alarm. Some one with access to the apartment had looked at some of her vaulable art, becaues when she had left her apartment on one occasion she had left her painting facing inwards agains the wall. When she came back the paintings had been turned around and were facing outwards. None of the paintings were gone and maybe this is a sort of thing Saturn in Libra would do while on the job, turn the paintings round to look and then not give it another thought.

Could Mercury in Capricorn be a jealous and mean neighbour, not wanting to pay for her own stuff, but picking up the odd piece and slipping it into her pocket or handbag on occasion? The querent has expensive taste and the glasses that have gone are priced at about 25 a piece, but chinaware does not strike me at being particularly 'hot' amoung young men in their 20-30's?

With Pisces on the ascendant, there could be a complex explaination and multiple reasons for things disappearing and items being disturbed. Several things could be happening at once: Exalted Saturn, who lets himself in to do a job without bothering to ask and then turns things around as it suits him (Saturn retrograde square Pluto), and a grudging Mercury with an eye for quality (in the face of the Sun) that picks up small items on occasion. The querent could be sensitive to the sum of these influences.
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aglaya



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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very close to that opinion myself- it does seem that there's more than one thing going on but it is worth keeping in mind that her ruler is cadent. It is a very specific situation and this Saturn does attract attention as we have two slow planets one of which is essentially very powerful (hers) yet cadent (even inside the 12th), that one being the Greater Benefic and the Greater Malefic also essentially strong, accidentally dignified in an angle but retrograde. The latter one is opposing her ascendant while her ruler is "hidden" behind it.

Quote:
Aglaya

What if they're still stolen, but with the culprit ascertained, the goods are recovered?


That was my initial impression, Paul, yes, mainly based on this placement of the Moon. I would not take it to be VOC and, seeing it on the 2nd cusp and strong did look promising in terms of the possibility of the objects being recovered. Not 100% sure, 'tho.

But a hidden Venus along with L1 inside the 12th did make me start wondering if the objects were really stolen.


Last edited by aglaya on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:54 am; edited 3 times in total
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handn



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Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

This chart is very interesting all the more so in relation to the discussion in the 'Traditional (& ancient) techniques' section of the forum about the 6th house and enemies.

I'm also wondering what Pluto very very close to the 11th cusp might be saying. Mercury's moving away from it, and Saturn is square it. Surely there is something very important involved about friends or allies?

L1 in the 12th - is the querent contributing to her own undoing? If so, then having just entered her own sign she might now be able to see herself better, but in the previous sign she would have been totally unable to see herself, Aquarius and Pisces being in unmitigated aversion as well as obviously 12th and 1st.

Regards

H.
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