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Cosmetic Surgery question, which house?
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kakabel



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 26

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:08 pm    Post subject: Cosmetic Surgery question, which house? Reply with quote

I have a question about cosmetic surgery and wonder if I'm right to use the 1st house.

It doesn't feel like it is a 6th hse issue as this is more to do with how she is going to feel about having it done and its more about the querents appearance and is integral to her sense of identity etc. rather than illness-6th or the surgeon's competence 10th. Any thoughts?


She had already decided to go ahead and planning the surgery to have a facial feature improved with a little smoothing of wrinkles at the same time.
She is now being persuaded to go for a full face lift but is worried about the extra cost and if it would be worth it (would she like it) or should she stick with her original plan.

So the question is "will I go for the full face lift?"

I've never had used the 1st as the quesited before so any suggestions appreciated.

thanks
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cosmic surgery is not performed for health reasons or to cure an affliction; so it's purely a matter of appearance. That's a first house issue, so you want to see the 1st house and its ruler looking good, and you would also want the Moon in a good shape since the Moon has natural signification over the physical body. Since this is about 'beautifying' having a dignified (or at least unafflicted) Venus in a good aspect to Moon or 1st ruler, or well placed in an angle, would also be ideal.

For concerns about finances, the 2nd house is significant. Generally you want this chart to be free of affliction or 6th house connections - which would indicate that the surgery could lead to health concerns.

Good luck with this chart,
Deb
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kakabel



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote





Here is the chart.

Thanks for that confirmation Deb, I've cast the chart and and here are my first thoughts.....


L1 Merc is retrograde, in cap in 8th and lacking essential dignity. Its within a degree of of turning direct. That gives some improvement but not enough to give any positive help.

Merc L1 is ruled by saturn (age) exalts mars (the benefits of the surgeons skills) venus in trip and terms (enjoys looking good) Moon in detriment (not happy with the body)

Moon, natural sig of the body, co ruler of the querent and L2 (the money concerns)
Moon is in 8th lacks dignity and is in its own detriment.

Just on that alone I think I would advise her to hold back from having more work done than she originally planned. I cant see anything to support it.

She is concerned about the expense L2 in 8th. Maybe she needs to borrow money to fund the work.

Moon in cap in 8th as sig of the body, her fear of age/death makes her consider the complete face job?

Merc, Moon and Venus are ruled by Saturn. He is lord of 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th hse.

Any suggestions about such strong Saturn?

I think worries about age and failing beauty are strong themes with Saturn strong and Venus being combust. She just came out of being cazimi. She makes no aspect to L1.

Venus sig of beauty is also Saturn ruled. Saturn is well dignified in Libra and in 5th hse.

I'll spend a bit more time on it and give some more thoughts later.
Meanwhile I'm interested in any other thoughts

thanks
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello kakabel

One thing about Saturn at the moment is that it's stationary retrograde.

Interesting that she's wanting to turn back the clock/Chronos, and signified by Mercury emerging from retro and almost all the planets disposited by Saturn going retro.

Regards

H.
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kakabel



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
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Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes handn well put. Saturn really struck me as having some weight here Smile I noticed it turned retro within a couple of hours of the chart time.
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, what an appropriate moment to ask the question! Stopping the clock and turning it back!

I'm wondering if you use Neptune? I do in horary charts when it's placed somewhere like it is in this one, right on the MC. You said that the querent didn't at first want a full face lift, the idea has come from someone else and you used the word 'persuaded'. High hopes, Neptune and Jupiter together and angular.... I'm not liking what that's signifying, it's a bit exaggerated..... and I'd want the surgeon to have a steady hand but doubt Neptune signifies that!
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JulieYvonne



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kakabel wrote:


Any suggestions about such strong Saturn?



Capricorn and its connection with the skin?
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really wild about that Moon/Saturn square upcoming, either. Having your 2 ruler in 8 squaring your 8 ruler with no reception gives me some concern for both health and finances.
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ack, sorry, not good with reading these type of chart wheels and lacking sleep lately.......... pls ignore previous mentions of MC! Neptune is of course in the 11th...... still relevant to hopes/wishes though perhaps?
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relative to the above chart in response to the specific horary question:
+Part of Fortune (significator of the mind+body+spirit unity of the individual as a whole) is posited in Taurus (sign relation to neck, some say to the lower part of the face), disposited by "beauty" significator, Venus, which planet is direct, elevated (9th house) and within 7 minutes of Cazimi (technically this is not Cazimi but it is so close-7 minutes-that I would consider it Cazimi and therefore highly benefic to the Venus condition)
+Part of Operations (Asc+Sun-Jupiter) = 0Taurus48, thus sign-conjunct Part of Fortune and disposited, like POF, by Venus=Part of Operations Significator (these connections add up to a benefic interpretation of the Part of Operations testimony) Further, the Part of Operations is conjunct Mirach, a co-operative, constructive star of the nature of Venus (Ptolemy), giving influences of "...beneficence and personal beauty "(Robson)
+Part of Beauty (Asc+Sun-Venus) = 6Gemini, the exact degree of the Ascendant; this = significantly benefic testimony.

It is important to remember that these testimonies are in response to the specific horary question only. The election of the most beneficial TIME for the operation is of primary importance.
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kakabel



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
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Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote
Quote:
Not really wild about that Moon/Saturn square upcoming, either. Having your 2 ruler in 8 squaring your 8 ruler with no reception gives me some concern for both health and finances.


I agree, that makes me feel negative about the answer to the original question. Combined with L1 retro, looking back to the past, merc is a youthful planet. I cant find the positive indicators for me to say "go ahead with the full face job".

I'm interested dr.farr in what you say about venus
Quote:
"beauty" significator, Venus, which planet is direct, elevated (9th house) and within 7 minutes of Cazimi (technically this is not Cazimi but it is so close-7 minutes-that I would consider it Cazimi and therefore highly benefic to the Venus condition)

I would have considered Venus combust and therefore debilitated, even though only minutes out of cazimi.
How do others deal with it when its so close? Combust has a very different tone to cazimi and could strongly influence the result of this chart. Is 17' the absolute rule of cazimi as I thought, or is it flexible?
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The majority of astrologers consider 17 minutes the absolute limit of cazimi; a minority of astrologers consider cazimi to equal 30 minutes of perfect conjunction; I do not fully ascribe to either opinion as constituting an ironclad "rule". I have studied several charts with placements at 18, 25, 26 minutes which( seemingly) demonstrated cazimi enhancement of the benefic "effects" of the planet involved; personally, when I'm not sure if cazimi might apply to positions just out of 17 minutes I convert the chart from LMT to sundial time (LAT) and see if the planet goes into the 17 degree range or at least moves closer to it (if it moves closer to the 17 minute border I regard this as a demonstrating a "cazimi trend" and consider the planet in cazimi) In the current chart, however, no time/location for when the question was asked has been posted.

+My delineation of this chart concerned the health/healing/emotional elements only. Relative to financial ramifications, the devil is in the 2nd house (Dragon's Tail in 2nd); a very negative testimony re to the money/financial aspect of this horary; Dragon's Tail is also within a couple degrees of perfect opposition to the Sun (health, vitality)/Venus (operation and beauty significator) combination, indicating the likelihood of negative money/financial ramifications upon the health/beauty testimonies. Not the first time that Mammon has blocked Apollo and Aphrodite!
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious where the 10th's signifying a surgeon's competence comes from because I thought the 7th was representative of a physician (of all types)? Is the 10th considered a specialized physician? Also, the 6th house in tradtional would describe their competence in health matters (Venus and Mars sitting here showing "arguments of a good physician"), but since this is a 1st house issue, wouldn't we look to the 1st house for their competence, as well as L7 and the 7th house?
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, everyone!
So many interesting thoughts in this topic and an interesting chart indeed.

I would only like to add a few more things that I would, by all means, take seriously regardless of what their real signification is or might be. Those are my impressions, of course but I thought I might want to share them.

kakabel wrote:
I agree, that makes me feel negative about the answer to the original question.


What is the original question here?
It's "Will I...?" and, at the same time, she is already determined to undertake a surgery only a bit moderate version of wrinkle "ironing". No chart will tell us what we WILL do, it can only give us a better insight into the situation, throw a better light onto something of a high importance for the matter, show the potential or lack of it- but but it is up to the querent to use that promise. We could and might do it if the chart really is showing the green light, but not until we decide to go for it and actually DO IT.
Not everything is inevitable- this certainly isn't.

When someone is determined to make such a radical move (permanent changes, hospitals, surgeries etc.), though such things are usually very expensive, the money is often not the main issue at all. If someone is really desperate to have a nose job that he or she will save the money and go for it. Their question could be- "will I be able to spare enough money and have the surgery next autumn?" Because they're determined.
If, on the other hand, they do have the money only they're reluctant to do it, their question would then probably begin with "Should I...?".

And, as for the "will I like my new look" (or "should I do it") part- the answer will actually highly depend upon the expectations, won't it? It's barely ever "wWll I like my eyes or my skin or my nose" but "Will I like the change?" or "Are the eyelids what I want to change in the first place?". Because, if they're not, the outcome will not be satisfactory no matter how well the surgery goes.
Modern software can give people a 99.9% precise picture of themselves after the surgery nowadays- people usually do know what they're going to look like. What no one can tell them is will they like the fact that they look differently even when differently means more beautiful ('tho, this opens another question too).

If she is not ready to be changed- she will not be happy with the results. If it is not the change of her face that she is really looking forward to- than she will not get what she wants by spending more money on a more evasive surgery. In terms of money- we could examine the shape of her 2nd and the 8th and see if she would be able to collect enough money. But, then again, if she hasn't got all the money now, she might have it next year.

So, where is she standing? I don't think we always need to have an access into the future to be able to "predict" the outcome- present can often do just fine in telling us the same thing. And this chart is a chart of general tendencies that include the present moment as well as the past.

Why does she want this surgery? She is represented by Mercury- the planet of youth. As Olivia and others have already pointed out, two very significant planets are disposed by Saturn, stationery, about to turn retrograde and leave the domicile of Venus and go back into the rational Virgo- the "home" of her Ascendant ruler. That way, it is also trying to "stay" inside the 5th. A top of all that- it is Saturn, the ruler of old people or old age. One doesn't have to be very smart to conclude that a person interested in having a plastic surgery that includes removing wrinkles is probably trying to keep her youthful looks and that she obviously isn't 20 but how old is she and is she really a good candidate for this? or, in better words- is that the youth that she is really seeking?

I am, by no means, trying to sound like an advisor here Very Happy , I'm not even suggesting that she is wrong..I don't know her, i haven't spoken to her. I don't know her exact age either and I must point out that I have no special opinion on plastic surgery but, most importantly- I would never a priori advise anyone against it even in a friendly conversation. I do not belong to those who think such ideas are always grounded in lack of self-esteem, that's for sure. Consequently, i would generally approach such a chart as any other.
But in this partucular case I would certainly ask a few additional questions because, though I'm sure that many (modern) astrologers who allow the 8th and its ruler to be the representatives of a positive and even painless transformation would see this as a normal placement, the most relevant planets (Moon and Mercury) weak inside the 8th are not something that i would expect to see and I surely do not like it. There has to be a reason for that! How well can detrimental Moon inside the 8th bode in a chart cast upon a question concerning a life-time change or, in better words, how constructive can a person be in planing it with such a placement?! The Moon does not operate well from this position.

WE could consider it a bad sign in terms of the outcome - the results that do not meet her expectations but, the chart should the be descriptive of her current state and shape too and, from that perspective, though she obviously isn't happy with how she looks, I wonder if she is ready for such a move in the first place. Again, this is not a personal opinion but my impression based on this placement.
The Moon is in a very bad shape and it is inside the 8th. And so is the L1. Even retrograde. Looking back and trying to pick up the pieces of her youthful beauty and put them back on her face now covered with wrinkles (the planet of youth retrograde inside the rulership of Saturn) all fits but, again-why are they inside the 8th? She is concentrated onto the 8th and I'm not sure if it is only because of the money! The Moon's last separation is with Jupiter, the ruler of the 7th and placed inside the 11th. The Jupiter is even about to make a huge change and become very powerful. Both planets are disposed by Saturn and the Moon's next application is a stressful aspect (square) to that dispositor inside the 5th. I won't try to "read" this but I would ask the Querent if she was going through any kind of post-traumatic phase that is possibly the result of a personal (emotional) turmoil.
The Moon is also conjunct Pluto and Pluto is sitting on the cusp of this very 8th- i would probably generally exclude it but, here...I'm pretty sure it is descriptive of her current state of mind. Ona bigger scale, it could be another strong testimony of a very drastic change, of losing control over something, strong emotions, dissolvement, self destructive ideas or correcting the appearance with the aim of solving an inner, deeper problem, huge fears caused by aging etc. ...or simply a strong sign of a possible moody behaviour which, again, could be very dangerous when a person is about to undertake a surgery.

And then comes this Venus- i'm not really sure if I would look at it as cazimi or not but, both ways, she is moving away from the Sun but it is still close to it, she is cadent and essentially dignified. Either burned and thus, blinded or well fortified. You chose! But what is it saying? If Cazimi, it could be a good sign of a successful surgery ('tho, we have no aspects between the main significators and this planet) but it could also be saying that her beuaty is not as damaged as she might think. Cazimi- preserved, fortified, strong and, in combination with the placement in its own triplicity- "still looking good". If the planet of her femininity and beuaty is indeed Cazimi, than it does not need to be changed- that is how I would, probably, look at it.
But, at the same time, it is cadent and unable to express itself. maybe! But that does not need to last for ever.
On the other hand, if we indeed are talking about a burned planet, then it is blinded and I don't think it is such a good idea to consider undertaking a cosmetic surgery when Venus is combust. Maybe she is not aware of her beauty or the reflection in the mirror is distorted due to something that does not belong to the physical appearance (that's where the Moon conjunct Pluto and Mercury retrograde inside the 8th jump in). So, either way, my main impression is that it's a tacky question whether her beauty is really damaged or not at the moment and, similarly- if it actually needs a change. If nothing else, I would suggest that the whole pla is worth re-thinking and that some other time would be a better much better choice to bring such decisions, if nothing else - for the second version of the surgery. The Sun in this chart rules the 4th and the 5th which could be an indication of where the blindness is coming from or what might be causing it as well.
Venus is so close to the Sun for some reason.


Just my twopence worth! Wink

(BTW, I love your sunny avatar! Thumbs up )
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kakabel



Joined: 22 Sep 2007
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Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies, I've been busy the last couple of days so haven't been able to keep up!

Just to clarify
aglaya writes
Quote:
What is the original question here?
It's "Will I...?" and, at the same time, she is already determined to undertake a surgery only a bit moderate version of wrinkle "ironing".


Maybe I should have put "should I" rather than "Will I" because the querent was really asking wether it was "right" or "ok" for her to do this. I think there is easily confusion over the way a question is asked and the answer in horary can differ depending on how it is posed.

In Ireland people often say "will I" do/go/get/have etc when they are asking if its ok to do it. It can be confusing to other english speakers. Example "will I leave the dog out?" translates to english/american "should I let the dog out?" Very Happy

Thanks aglaya for all your thoughts and taking the time to write them at length.

I also found it a very interesting chart to read and as I'm still relatively new to horary it was a good challenge.

I have now met with the lady to discuss her horary.
Before she asked the question she had met with the surgeon and discussed having a small amount of cosmetic surgery. There was suggestion then of having more extensive work done. She wasn't sure how far to go... hence the question.

What the chart said to me was that she wasn't in a good place in herself to go ahead with the more elaborate surgery.That she wouldn't be happy with it because changing her appearance wasn't going to change her thoughts/inner perspective. (Merc L1 and Moon in 8th. Moon, as body, in detriment making a square to Saturn just before its retrograde.) She feels bad about her body and the challenge is with cronus himself!

As also said by others the strong Saturn about to go retro seemed to highlight the putting back the clock, age, time etc.

I stuck with reading Venus as combust as she was moving away from cazimi.

This told me that her own beauty was obscured or invisible to her because of her past/roots/family/mother's influence, Sun L4, and she didn't enjoy or get pleasure with her feminine charms, Sun L5.

With Saturn ruling L1, Moon Sun and Venus, I thought she had been influenced by those whose profession (L10 Saturn in Libra in 5th) in the beauty business that she would enjoy her life more if she had the "face job" and other "remedial" work done. Convinced by the ideal image given to her and the benefits of surgery. L1 merc exalts mars- the surgeons knife, believes it can do magic!
Again, Saturn in Libra, (the business of venus) about to turn back (an attempt to defy aging) in the 5th...pleasure and superficial (?) enjoyment.

Jupiter L7 about to become greater in pisces in11th, also leads back to Saturn and "reality" lord of time. The other person (7th) maybe surgeon, in hse of hopes/future/gain.

as aglaya wrote:
Quote:
The Moon's last separation is with Jupiter, the ruler of the 7th and placed inside the 11th. The Jupiter is even about to make a huge change and become very powerful. Both planets are disposed by Saturn and the Moon's next application is a stressful aspect (square) to that dispositor inside the 5th.


When I spoke to the querent it became apparent that she had very poor body image, there are old/family issues. She hoped that she would feel better with a new look. Though in truth she already had doubts and soon revealed that her problems went much deeper.

As we talked I got the feeling that she was quite deparately looking for another opinion and wasn't aware of any choices whilst she felt surgery was the only option, a 'fait accompli' her inevitable path. L1 in 8th ?

She is now- soon, going to have some more astrology work, a look at her natal chart and transits. And maybe do some serious personal development work.

She hasn't set any date for the surgery yet and is wondering now if she will have any surgery at all. (Merc L1 turns direct)


Oh yes, she was going to have to borrow money for the fees (Moon L2 in 8th)

sorry if I'm a bit all over the place with my interpretation I'm trying to get it all down here before I forget it.

thanks for all the insights
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