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VOC moon or significator or both?
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Lakewind



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Location: Buffalo area, New York State

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:44 am    Post subject: VOC moon or significator or both? Reply with quote

I asked the eternal question of single people: "Will I ever have a mate?"No aspect between L1(sun) and L7,Saturn, and Saturn is retro in "the mates'" turned 8th. The VOC moon is conjunct the descendant and Neptune in there also. Frawley says if Naptune is on the descendent of the 7th, it means fraud or trouble in business deals, so not looking good for a mate either, I guess. But I'd like posters opinion on Saturn and the moon. Is the moon still my co-significator or is it the co-significator of the 7th? Does Satrn retro indicate a person or partnership in general?I note I'm not receiving Saturn well, though Saturn is somewhat friendly to my co sigs, moon and Venus. I'm confused. The only person this could represent in my life is a married man who I broke off my friendship with when I realized I was in love with him. I recently had an horary here about the situation. This seems like a complicated chart. Anyone inspired?

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hiimnotcool



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asking 'Will I ever...' questions is ill advised and not recommended because ituations are always changing. I would venture to say this is not a radical chart and unfit to be judged.
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Lakewind



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, but I don't agree, at least not on the basis of using the word "ever".
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elumen



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lakewind, I will have to second himnotcool thinking that the chart is not radical. The hour ruler is Venus and the Sun is the Asc ruler in this chart. According to the rules of radicality posted here (http://skyscript.co.uk/hour_agreement.pdf) no similarity is found between the hour ruler and the Asc ruler. Primarily they are of different humour, different nature, and positioned in the different triplicities.
Aside from that, if we still proceed with the interpretation, the chart gives a sense that the question is not very pertinent right now (it could be that you asked it a few times in the row). Your exalted ruler the Sun is in the 9th house seems to indicate the desire for freedom and exploration and possibly high expectations. The Moon is in the 7th points the emotional desire for relationship but since its conj Neptune , there maybe some fantasy and confusion about your true needs, and/or unrealistic expectations. VOC to me indicates that right now no development is going to take place and I would not extend this answer to "for ever." In my experience, horary shows the immediate development of the situation and depending on the question may show a longer period of time. However, Lilly does offer the examples of how more permanent answers can be derived from horaries, so it can be done. Based on the Moon VOC and no agreement between the asc and hour ruler, I'd leave this question aside for a while, and ask it later. As far as whom the Moon represents, I'd take it as you.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lakewind wrote:
Thank you, but I don't agree, at least not on the basis of using the word "ever".


Hi, lakewind!

I agree with Tanit here; our approach is certainly not grounded in traditional literature as such questions (and, at least according to the examples available in such literature) they were also considered normal and were actually common. Nowadays, the majority of astrologers don't find this approach nearly as acceptable as our traditional "teachers" did and often advise their clients to formulate their question(s) differently. The reason for a such attitude is grounded in common sense and....well, i'll say it - maybe that is the touch of the "psychological" approach that even us, the cold-headed, open minded traditionally oriented astrologers have embraced over time. Laughing

The truth is- such questions are very tacky and, though many Querents say that they are 100% sure that they want to hear the answer right away, personally, I am just as sure that it is the positive answer that most of them wants to hear, not the negative one. For this and many other reasons, the responsibility that that lies upon the astrologer who accepts to delineate such a chart can easily become a huge burden. Such answers have a much stronger impact onto the Querent's general approach to life, his or hers attitude towards the matters inquired upon and their consciousness in general. Needles to add- we are risking causing some devastating consequences in case of a wrong answer (and we all make mistakes).

But, even more importantly- every astrological advice should provide help; help in terms of informations regarding some general influences/potential/possibilities or the lack of them that the Querent or the Native can use constructively. I don't really think that the answer "never" really helps and, besides- who can tell for sure that it really is "no" or "never". For what it's worth, people can choose not to use the potential promissed in their charts at all- telling someone that (s)he might get married three years from now does not mean that the person will actually marry then- everyone needs to find someone to marry to first. Smile Similarly, not every relationship or even marriage that is not meant to last forever should be avoided. If something bad might happen to the relationship in the future, we need to make sure if there are still good things that the same relationship could bring in the meantime. Or, if something can be done in order to improve one's private life, then the best the Astrologer can do is to advise or instruct that person on how to use the potential in the most proximate future. Let him or her to actually turn the things to her own or his own favour.
Suggesting a time frime of, say, 2 years or even a year sounds like a much better idea to me.
Of course, take all this as an advice rather than as a general rule.
But, strangly enough, most of the charts posted here on forum cast for the Questions that contained the "ever" or "Will I" part turned out to be non-radical or had no applying aspects at all (at least as far as the main significators are concerned). Same thing with this chart. No applying aspects, pretty late Ascendant...Maybe the stars are indeed reminding us that we need to be cautious.

Still, as you will surely see if you open any of the aforesaid threads, some astrologers suggest that the movement of the relevant planets through the current sign can, in such situations, be taken as descriptive of the course of the events in a longer time period and that even the movement of the relevant planets through the next sign or, until they enter the orb of their next application, can be examined and taken as relevant too. I believe that yuzuru actually suggested something of this kind in another thread over a year ago- to take the passage of the unaspected planet through the current sign as descriptive of the next year (I believe that it was a year) and to take the moment when the planet crosses the sign boundary as an indication of either the end of a phase or a critical moment that will precede the desired event. Unfortunately, the outcome of this question is not known so I can't give you any opinion on that.

I'm also aware that Frawley instructs the astrologers to examine the future applications of the significators to the relevant cusps (to the ascendant primarily) if there are no applying aspects between the main significators in the charts.


But in this particular chart, besides Void planets, we also have a late ascendant and it iws obviously saying that the chart should be approached with much caution.

The Moon, the co-significator of the Question, placed on the 7th cusp is clearly suggesting that it's the romantic life that is currently the Querent's main concern. but this Moon is casting an opposition to the Ascendant that, again, is at a very late degree of the sign. I also wouldn't discard this Neptune but I find the fact that it is conjunct Moon even more significant. This possibly suggests illusions and delusions, moodiness, disappointment, non-realistic approach or non sincerity in relationships. It could also be suggesting that the Querent either glorifies her partners or expects them to meet her expectations that are maybe not always realistic.

Also, along with this late ascendant, there is more than one thing in this chart that makes me wonder if she was actually still under the impression of a recent break-up or any relationship from her past (I am aware that this is a long shot and I would generally ask the Querent if it were so but here I'm just listing my assumtpions)- the Moon is making an opposition to the ascendant, it is at a very late degree (and so is the asc) and the ruler of the 7th is retrograde and has just left the sign where it enjoys though, a planet in retrograde motions isn't at its best regardless of its placement. (going back, past issues, separations etc.)

Also, the rulers of the signs that occupy the biggest part of the 1st and the 7th (though they do not rule the cusps), i.e. Mercury and Jupiter seem to be suggesting some kind of discomfort too. Jupiter is essentially strong but at the cusp of the 8th whilst Mercury is unsuccessfully trying to catch up with Venus, the planet of reomance, inside the 9th (meaning that it is cadent). If the Querent was recently invloved in a relationship with someone, this could be examined from the perspective of that relationship as well.

I'm pretty sure that this question should be reformulated and asked later in the future when both the Querent and the starts are ready. But, ready for a constructive answer.

Cheers!


Last edited by aglaya on Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This charts gives the impression that something is approaching it's end. It probably reflects your past more clearly than your future, cause there is no further development concerning past loves anywhere to be seen. Therefore, your question is not sincerely worded.

The entrance of the Moon in Pisces brings some closure to the matter, but there it does not aspect the Sun and to Saturn, opposes. Only the aspect to Venus seems to be promising in the next sign, but that is not enough to hold for anything (besides, she rules 10th, having little significance over what is enquired). I'd say that for the time being and for the near future, do not hope for much.
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Lakewind



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Location: Buffalo area, New York State

Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your responses. As I said, I have already been told I will probably remain alone and, to me, the receptions in this chart show I may not want a such a close relationship. The comments on what the moon may be doing so close to the descendent were helpful. The chart may not be radical as far as the hour goes, but as Frawley says, any chart can be read. Also, I did state that I had just ended a relationship, so I didn't expect folks to spend time on that issue. What I asked was when reading this type of chart, does Lord 7 read as an individual or as the relationship?Saturn here is retro,yes, showing weakness, but also showing preparation for a change. Frawley also says Uranus can signify divorce and will be in direct opposition to Lord 7 very soon. Would traditionalists find that relevant or ignore it has been answered by everyone ignoring it, I guess lol. Anyway, thanks for your responses.
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lakewind

I wonder if you've asked this question before, with the late degree of ascendant.

Lord1 is making no aspects whatsoever and the Moon is voc, that would suggest a no to me, but I don't believe that these things can be shown in a horary simply because I do not believe that the future is fixed. This is more a philosophical point than it is a question of 'tradition'.
My understanding of things like this would be that continuing as you are, a relationship seems unlikely.

The other way to look at this would be to actually consider what the question REALLY was, was it "are my fears that I'll remain single true" in which case the Voc moon would suggest otherwise.
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Tanit



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lakewind - I think nativity would be best to consult first for questions on long-term relationships. Horary often expresses what is already seen in natal anyway. For example, I was studying Lilly late last year and asked a horary seriously on whether I'd marry, per Lilly's rules, and L1 and L7 were separating from a trine, and Moon and L7 were squaring in the future (L7 was also combust), showing future difficulties in love that would require a lot of work via both potential parties and likely no marriage. My L1 Moon and L7 in natal do pretty much the same thing. Ptolemy suggests for women to look at the condition and placement of the Sun also. In my natal, the Sun is in the 11th in Taurus unaspected by traditional planets. The 11th Sun in a fixed sign would perhaps be one marriage in my youth (and I did have an opportunity but turned it down around age 21), but since there is no aspect that would more likely point to no marriage. So natal really is your best bet, but I think we can also overcome such challenges.

It's surely never hopeless, otherwise what's the point in studying astrology??
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aglaya



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, I did state that I had just ended a relationship, so I didn't expect folks to spend time on that issue.


Well, separating aspects are hardly a non important factor. and in this chart- we actually have no applying ones. In combination with a late ascendant, in my opinion, this could be an indication of the underlying thoughts and wishes regarding the man that you have recently separated with in which case- the whole answer should be taken cautiously because it might simply be the reflection of the current situation rather than of your life promise. So, technically, I agree with what Frawley says about all charts being readable but an early ascendant should be "read" just like the rest of the chart.

Speaking of early ascendants, your other chart also has one and I wonder if the stars are maybe trying to advise your to take a break from asking the questions about your love life at least until the most recent episode cools off. It would be a pity to convince yourself that there is no future in your love life based on a delineation of a chart (if not two charts) that actually advises you against the judgement with its early ascendant.
The Moon conjunct Neptune is yet another sign of your current vision and you would want to see the things clearly when examining the influence of the stars onto your love life in the future, wouldn't you!? I still have to suggest you to take a break or, perhaps, ask another astrologer to cast a chart when you think the time has come.

Though this application of the Moon to Neptune is not something that we can examine as a future event, at least not if we choose to follow traditional scripts, it certainly is descriptive of your current state of mind (blurred vision). Also, it is actually conjunct the 7th cusp- both planets are. Neptune inside the 7th, as you have already pointed out, talks about a lack of trust, betrayals, secrets and it can easily dissolve a relationship. But the Moon is also a female planet and possibly a wife which brings me back to my initial assumption that your hopes were maybe still very much tied to a very specific person. The ruler of the 5th is inside the 8th announcing heaviness that is certainly caused by something....

You are, of course, the astrologer in this case and, at the end of the day, you will have to make your own decision on whether to accept this as a clear "NO, I will never be in love again" or take the alarm signs seriously.
Personally, i would advise you to choose the latter option but only because I think that this chart is not reliable enough to drain such heavy conclusions from it. Also, I basically agree with Paul- we all have out Natal promises and, depending upon what we decide to do with them, we "change" and create our path every single day .

Quote:
What I asked was when reading this type of chart, does Lord 7 read as an individual or as the relationship?


Well, it is both!

Quote:
Saturn here is retro,yes, showing weakness, but also showing preparation for a change


I'm not sure that this planet is showing any signs of willingness to change. It has actually recently been through a change- it slipped back into Virgo these days but that has only caused it to lose most of its essential dignities. It is still moving backwards.
But, like I said,considering other factors found in this chart, I'm more inclined to believe that we are actually talking about a very specific relationship or person.

Quote:
Frawley also says Uranus can signify divorce and will be in direct opposition to Lord 7 very soon


Jupiter is not the ruler of any relevant cusp. But, how could you divorce if you're not married?! Wink
And, whilst I've seen strong influence of Uranus in Natal charts of people who indeed have separated from their spouses, I'd somehow say that that alone should not be taken as the main significator of separation in a Horary chart even if it were the significator that is applying to Uranus.
Also, this Jupiter will make some other aspects before reaching Uranus too.


Last edited by aglaya on Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aglaya



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit wrote:
In my natal, the Sun is in the 11th in Taurus unaspected by traditional planets. The 11th Sun in a fixed sign would perhaps be one marriage in my youth (and I did have an opportunity but turned it down around age 21), but since there is no aspect that would more likely point to no marriage. ??


I too have Sun inside the 11th (in Cancer) with no applying aspects to any of the inner planets. But, dear, this only means that we will have young and goodlooking husbands later in life! (Even Lilly says so! Laughing )
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Tanit



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I too have Sun inside the 11th (in Cancer) with no applying aspects to any of the inner planets. But, dear, this only means that we will have young and goodlooking husbands later in life! (Even Lilly says so! )


Leery I hadn't heard that one... The Sun in the oriental quadrants are usually young in life, right? Though, Ptolemy says it can be to a youth. My 7th ruler is Saturn in Virgo (received by Mercury on 10th/11th cusp in a trine), so either I or they might be older I guess. My potential at age 21 was 5 yrs older than me.

The horary had many similarities to my natal though (Mercury L7 in the 10th in a sign of Venus) and there were no warnings in judgment and the chart had hr agreement. I think the warnings in the horary here should be heeded!
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Tanit



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Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lakewind - I also think it's helpful to look at physical descriptions of planets involved. If L7 fits someone you loved in the past/now, that would be further indication of previous/current issues showing up in the horary vs. "ever after."

Saturn in Virgo occidental, peregrine, north in latitude. I know this one well, it's my natal 7th ruler...

Lilly:
Saturn when ill (I would say so because it is peregrine/retro and in aversion to the ASC?): he is envious, covetous, jealous and mistrustful, timorous, sordid, outwardly concealing one's real emotions by pretence, sluggish, suspicious, stubborn, a condemner of women, a close liar, malicious, murmuring, never contented, ever repining. Generally the body is cold and dry, of a middle stature; the complexion pale, dark-complexioned or muddy, his eyes small and dark, looking downward; a broad forehead, black or lackluster or thin hair, and it hard or rugged; great ears, hanging; lowering eye-brows, thick lips and nose, a rare or thin beard, a lumpish, unpleasant countenance, either holding his head forward or stooping; his shoulders broad and large, and many times crooked; his belly somewhat short and lank; his thighs spare, lean and not long; his knees and feet indecent, many times shovelling or hitting one against another. If occidental, the man is more black and lean, and fewer hairs; and again, If the latitude be North, hairy and much flesh.

Virgo - average height, the build is slender with straight, angular features. The lips are thin and the forehead may be high, with the eyes small and piercing. The hair is typically dark. Movement is light and quick, the voice is small becoming high pitched (or shrill) when raised. The Virgo style is neat, discreet, simple, conservative and under-stated.
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Lakewind



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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what a collection of answers Laughing That description of Saturn is a killer! I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure wouldn't find him too attractive!! I understand and appreciate many of the cautions about this chart, yet I do wonder at the one-sidedness of how we interpret things. For instance, why are we so quick to go to the negative when Neptune is there? Neptune has a whole 'nother side involving the highest idealism and selfless love and romanticism.Just once I would like to see that emphasized by an astrologer. And Paul, I have been uninterested in marriage all my life, and remain so. All I'm looking for is a good person with some ideals, some selflessness, to be close to, to be on his "A" list, to have faith in as an ethical and loving person-but I expect him to have his own life and his own home to go to, just as I have mine. THAT's why I didn't say marriage. I was concerned the moon might represent him, not me.The moon in this chart is at the exact degree of his natal sun,btw. I'm a little uncomfortable with astrologers telling querents what they're "really" asking, as it seems a little less than respectful.
I upfronted the last relationship because I thought Saturn retro might indicate him changing his mind, and the opposition to Uranus might mean divorce for him, not me. But to be objective, it might also show my poor chances of making such a relationship in general, and my receptions, or lack of, might indicate that underneath my longing, I still might be resistant to emotional intimacy as I have been most of my life. But, anyway, I have learned a lot from everyone's comments, so thanks to all. Oh yes, Tanit, I have my natal Sun in Cancer in the 11th house, and a younger guy sounds fine to me. (smiling). Lakewind
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Tanit



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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That description of Saturn is a killer! I can't speak for anyone else, but I sure wouldn't find him too attractive!!


LOL! That Virgo Saturn actually fits my ex boyfriend (the one I mentioned that wanted to marry me) to a T, right down to the shortness, dark features, big ears, thin lips and lack of proper facial hair. Mine is stationary (the second station before direct movement), and Lilly says that adds weight and he was a little chubby. He WASN'T very attractive! Not my greatest love either...

Quote:
Oh yes, Tanit, I have my natal Sun in Cancer in the 11th house, and a younger guy sounds fine to me. (smiling).

It's a nice thought, but I'm not so sure, at least in my chart! Cheers to us 11th house Sun women. Thumbs up
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