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(Other) Divination techniques
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Do you practice any other divination technique besides Astrology?
yes
52%
 52% 
no
30%
 30% 
no, but I used to
8%
 8% 
not currently but I do intend to learn another virtue
8%
 8% 

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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Levi, Mathers and Papus assigned the Major Arcana symbols first to (what each of these men considered to be) the appropriate Kabbalistic Tree of Life path or sephira, then each made the card connection with the element, sign or planet associated with that path or sephira. This is the way in which each authority determined the astrological affinity of the card symbolisms. Thus we may correctly say that-relative to the above authors-the (varying) astrological affinities ascribed to the Tarot by them are made directly from each adept's interpretations of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life (note that both Waite and Crowley are in the Mathers/Golden Dawn/Hermetic Kabbalah "stream")

I do not know if the same is the case relative to Etteilla's astro/Tarot correspondences. Relative to Theirens this is not the case (Note: I should have clarified my earlier statement about Thieren's book: his was the first Tarot book devoted EXCLUSIVELY to Tarot/astrological affinities)
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:32 am    Post subject: Lenormand Astrological Affinities Reply with quote

The 36 card Lenormand deck (eg, the "French Cartomancy" mini-deck) is a lovely little cartomantic device. There are, however, definite astrological connections to be found: traditionally each of the 36 cards has been allocated an approximately 10 day period of time stretching throughout the year, and these time periods fairly closely correspond to our zodiacal decanates. Thus an additional astrological interpretation may be made for each card. These decan-affinities, together with the (Chaldean) planetary Lord of each, are as follows (Note: cards are listed in deck order beginning with card #1 and ending with card #36):

+A Horseman: 2nd Capricorn Mars
+Clover: 3rd Capricorn Sun
+Boat: 1st Aquarius Venus
+House: 2nd Aquarius Mercury
+Tree: 3rd Aquarius Moon
+Clouds: 1st Pisces Saturn
+Snake: 2nd Pisces Jupiter
+Coffin: 3rd Pisces Mars
+Bouquet: 1st Aries Mars
+Sickle: 2nd Aries Sun
+Broom & Whip: 3rd Aries Venus
+Birds: 1st Taurus Mercury
+A Little Girl: 2nd Taurus Moon
+Fox: 3rd Taurus Saturn
+Bear: 1st Gemini Jupiter
+Stars: 2nd Gemini Mars
+Stork: 3rd Gemini Sun
+Dog: 1st Cancer Venus
+Tower: 2nd Cancer Mercury
+Garden: 3rd Cancer Moon
+Mountain: 1st Leo Saturn
+Path: 2nd Leo Jupiter
+Mice: 3rd Leo Mars
+Hearts: 1st Virgo Sun
+Ring: 2nd Virgo Venus
+A Diary: 3rd Virgo Mercury
+A Letter: 1st Libra Moon
+A Gentleman: 2nd Libra Saturn
+A Lady: 3rd Libra Jupiter
+Lily: 1st Scorpio Mars
+The Sun: 2nd Scorpio Sun
+The Moon: 3rd Scorpio Venus
+A Key: 1st Sagittarius Mercury
+Fish: 2nd Sagittarius Moon
+Anchor: 3rd Sagittarius Saturn
+A Cross: 1st Capricorn Jupiter
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, Dr Farr, if you read 20 authors on Lenormand, you'll end up with 20 different astrological assignments. Were I going to use astrology with them, I'd go with the face/decan assignments, too, but these weren't even the cards la Lenormande used. As far as I can tell, the original Petit Jeu was actually a German invention.

I dislike the Belline with a fiery passion, but I love Medlindaf's reinterpretation of it - he studied Edmond's original drawings, and every other bit of his and Mlle Lenormande's stuff he could get his hands on because Belline made such a dog's breakfast out of the deck. The Belline (or better, the Eltynne) does have valid astrological assignments. And may be from Mlle Lenormand herself. Find it here.

Grandville named his Parlour Sibyl after Mlle Lenormand (they were friends), and it soon came to be known as 'the Parisian tarot' (not to be confused with the Tarots de Paris). I suspect she used Etteilla's deck, as well as playing cards, and possibly - Grandville's. But I don't know if we'll ever know for certain, and she tended to write books about sex scandals, how stunning her prophecies were, and the 'idiot police' who kept giving her a hard time and throwing her in gaol. If she wrote about her actual fortune telling methods, I'm not aware of it. All we have to go on is Edmond's work, and a few testimonials and letters from people who saw her for readings.
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, now its "21 authors", because I made the allocations listed above, albeit based upon the dates of the year ascribed to the "time indication" of each card. Certainly there is nothing authoritative here, however I was struck by the apparent "similarity" of a number of the card symbols with either the meaningfulness of the zodiacal sign or of the planetary ruler of the associated decanate. Perhaps this is how divinatory devices are created!
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lenormand is a passion of mine - I've got a blog with about 150 entries on how to read it, since there was so little information in English. Thought about a book, but there really isn't demand, and I'd hate to see Lenormand go the way tarot has gone.

Not much danger, I grant. I didn't go into a lot of the history, though I've got some of the stories and legends up - my friend Fennario has a blog on the same site chronicling the Grand Jeu, and it was yours truly who at least attempted to sort out the fixed stars and constellations on that one (and all the flowers were taken from Grandville's drawings, too). Wow. Lenormand - Grandville. It just doesn't stop. They use his work on the Flower Lenormand, too.

But it's remarkable how well Lenormand works. That I can't get over, even knowing it was created more as a way to cash in on her name than on anything she did.

Which does indeed raise some interesting questions about divination.

Check Medlindaf's site, though - he does have all the cards from the Eltynne up there under their proper planet series, and for those of us who understand classical astrology, the planet-card assignments make wonderful sense. And it's a really neat deck. Dirt cheap for a handmade, as well.

The Lenormand, Eltynne, and anything created by or based on JJ Grandville's work seem to be the cards I reach for if I'm reading cards.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And can I repost your list to the blog - with attribution, of course?

As I said, it's the one that makes most sense to me, as well, but I usually advise people to leave astrology out of it, as that way lies madness. I'd thought of writing something about the decans, though, and if one was going to attempt an astrological reading that'd pretty much be the way to go with it.
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes you may post my allocations on the blog. While Tarot (Rider-Waite) is, for me, pretty much the "be/end all" relative to cartomantic divination, still, I have come to regard the Petit Jeu of much value-however, I do not use any of the given (English language) meanings for the cards, my interpretations being, I guess, unique to myself: for the card meanings I use a combination of:
1) the meanings/correspondences/affinities of the allocated decanate and planet (as I have listed them, above);
2) numerological affinities based upon the actual number of the card, plus numerological affinities of the playing card shown (in the background);
3) elemental affinities/correspondences based upon the suit of the playing card shown in the background;
4) correspondences suggested (to my mind at the time of the reading) by the central symbol/image on the card (eg, bear, ring, cross, etc etc)
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those interested in making a study of I Ching astrological correspondences (within the context of the various Chinese "astrologies") may I recommend the following:

-"The Astrology of the I Ching" (A translation of the Ho Map Lo Map Rational Number); editied W.A. Sherrill, Arkana Penguin Books, 1993

-also see"I Ching Anthology", Sherrill + Chu, Arkana/Penguin, 1989, chapter 3-'Astrologies related to the I Ching'

(Happy Year of the Tiger to all Skyscript members!)
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 875
Location: Delhi

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have used Tarot,Rune and lately, Lenormand(online).

http://www.e-tarocchi.com/mlpub/index.php

Lenormand has been uncannily accurate.I am still not clear about- The Book and Clouds card.In any form- I have only used single card spread.The online interpretation is sometimes the opposite of what is written on the card ???

http://www.exoteric.fr/en/rubrique269.html


PD
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try my meanings page - http://freakyfortuneteller.com/chanah/?page_id=50

And there's a big Lenormand tag in the tag cloud, too - it may help.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 875
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
Try my meanings page - http://freakyfortuneteller.com/chanah/?page_id=50

And there's a big Lenormand tag in the tag cloud, too - it may help.


Thanks,
Is there a tradition to reverse cards as well or is that a Tarot thing. Looks like the website- e-tarocchi- uses reversed cards as well in the deciphering the meaning of the cards

PD
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Aside from a booklet that came with a Lo Scarabeo deck that was written by a tarot artist who obviously didn't know anything about Leonormand, nobody's advocated reversing the cards.

Some people reverse cards in full sibilla decks, but not in the smaller ones - you read those, including Lenormand, by the card combinations.
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:46 am    Post subject: Converting an astrological chart into an I Ching Hexagram Reply with quote

I Ching divination has been mentioned several times in a number of recent threads. I thought it might be of some interest to Skyscript members using I Ching to pass on a method I learned back in the 90's from "Dr. Mo", an Oriental Medicine doctor practicing at that time in the "Chinatown" area near downtown Los Angeles. Now what I am about to describe is NOT astrology, but it uses astrology to "cast" the I Ching hexagram (which latter is read for the prognostic interpretation).

According to Dr. Mo (he used our tropical zodiac for this purpose), in a specific question (what we would call a horary) one proceeds to cast the hexagram as follows:

-erect an astrological chart for the exact time of the question (Dr. Mo used Porphyry house system, but any house system will do)

-construct your hexagram by building its component trigrams in this way:

A) for the lower trigram (always start here), make 3 lines (either yang: _ or yin:_ _) based upon the + (Yang or "Male") or -(Yin or "Female") nature of the sign**: (first or bottom line) in which the Descendant degree is found, then (second or middle line) the nature of the sign in which the Ascendant degree is found, finally (third or upper line) the nature of the sign in which the MC degree is found. This makes up the lower trigram.

B) for the upper trigram, make 3 lines (as above, yang or yin lines) based upon the Yang or Yin nature of the sign: (first or bottom line of the upper trigram) in which the cusp (or sensitive degree) of the significator House is found, then (second or middle line), the nature of the sign in which the Lord of the Ascendant is posited, finally (third or top line) the nature of the sign in which the Lord of the significator House is posited.

You now have a completed hexagram which is interpreted (from I Ching sources) as the answer to the question. Dr. Mo stated that particular attention is to be paid to the meaning of the "nuclear trigram" within the middle of the hexagram; also, that if the question is simply to be answered "yes" or "no", you can find that answer in the "nuclear trigram" alone: if there are three yang lines comprising the nuclear trigram the answer = yes; if three yin lines = no; if two yang + one yin = probably yes; if two yin + one yang = probably no.

In I Ching analysis the "changing line" or "controlling line" plays an important role. For determining the controlling line, Dr. Mo used the sign position of the Moon in the chart: its position = the controlling line (that is, the number of the controlling line, whether line 1, line 2, etc. up to line 6)
Dr. Mo's "Moon/Line" allocations are:
-Moon in Taurus or Capricorn = Line 1
-Moon in Virgo or Scorpio = Line 2
-Moon in Cancer or Pisces = Line 3
-Moon in Leo or Aries = Line 4
-Moon in Sagittarius or Aquarius = Line 5
-Moon in Libra or Gemini = Line 6

The controlling/changing line application in I Ching analysis will yield a new hexagram figure, and Dr. Mo would regard this final hexagram as the ultimate ramification of the answer to the question.

Dr. Mo's method is quite interesting, and apparently unknown (at least I have never read about it) With certain modifications, this method is capable of being applied to obtain I Ching insights relating to nativities, progressions (profections also, SR's, etc), event and mundane matters in addition to specific (horary) questions. I reiterate that this is not astrology, it is I Ching divination-but the application of astrological data to cast the hexagrams at least partially connects Dr. Mo's method with our astrological field of interest.

**The zodiac has been divided according to sign polarity since the most ancient times; originally as "male" or "female" signs, later simply by + signs and - signs; these constitute the "yin and yang" allocations of the zodiacal signs, and in Dr. Mo's method, the yin or yang lines to be used in constructing the trigrams which make up the hexagram. For convenience, the Yin/Yang allocations of the zodiacal signs are as follows:
Aries: Yang __
Taurus: Yin _ _
Gemini: Yang __
Cancer: Yin _ _
Leo: Yang __
Virgo: Yin _ _
Libra: Yang __
Scorpio: Yin _ _
Sagittarius: Yang __
Capricorn: Yin _ _
Aquarius: Yang __
Pisces: Yin _ _
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Other Divinations?
Well I use astrology as my main method of divination.
I use numeology just for fun when people ask.
I use Tarot for three reasons:
1. Short term prediction when a computer is not available
2. When a person asks too many questions at the same time. (I've had client who ask 15 different questions. I am not going to be bothered answering those with horary!). If I have the mood, I would ask him to narrow down his to 2 or three most important if I wish to use horary.
3. When I am too lazy to do horary chart!

Advantage of Tarot reading:
It can be used for many different questions asked at about the same time.

Disadvantages of Tarot reading:
- Usually for sort term only and sometimes the spread only reflects what is in the querent's mind and his expectations
- Highly dependent in intuition.

Advantage of Numerology:
Easy and does not need time of birth

Disadvantage of Numerology:
When it inly depends on date of birth, how can it be specific?!


However, there is one important factor that makes numerology still valid. The name number. Astrology does not differentiate people by name. Numerology does. It is certainly interesting to note the births of twins (whose ascendant sign does not change and asc degrees are about the same) and their different paths of lives by analyzing their names (both birth names and popular names). In fact this can be used for two (or more) astro twins. Names given definitely have effects on our lives. It should be the first most important thing a parent should do i.e. giving good names to their children (in fact in Islam, it is the first responsibility of the father!).

Changing names can also have effects. This is where many numerologists (who are not also astrologers) tripped. If they see clients have very "inharmonious" names, they advice change of names. They then choose a name based on their preferred Gematria (letter-number conversion table), most famous being Chaldean-Hebrew-Kabala or Pythagorean system. The problems?
1. Names and numbers answer to the law of Vibration. People must call you by that name or else it remains as potential only (just like people who do not use their birth names - their meanings associated with the unused birth names become only potentials).
2. More importantly, the name change must be done on the hour and day that are harmonious astrologically (which a numerologist who is not astrologer would not do!).

I remember vaguely in Talmud tradition, when God supposedly gave a different name to Abram (new name Abraham) which should have different effects on him and I am pretty sure it was done on a "prosperous day"? However, when it comes to God, he is by definition above destiny/fate, fortune and choice.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

By the way, I have a few questions of Tarot Cards:

1. I have seen Tarot readers who use the whole deck for reading the general current situation and future events. Could any of you point me to the websites or books that advocate this?

2. How the heaven (not the other one!) do you use the cards for timing and how succesful are you with it?

Thank you!
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