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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sinister and Dexter Aspects for Retro Planets

 
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Sinister and Dexter Aspects for Retro Planets Reply with quote

I was wondering if I am confusing the current retro Mars/Saturn sextile aspect and whether or not it has been sinister or dexter under different scenarios. Retrograde movement often confuses me.

When Mars and Saturn aspected recently, while both were retrograde, Mars went backwards towards the sextile to Saturn. Normally, if Mars was moving forward to an aspect from Leo to a planet in Libra, it would be sinister and would dominate in the aspect. But since it was backwards, was it dexter, and Saturn dominated? Or do we just base it on the sign placement and not the actual movement of the planet, meaning even if Mars is retro, the aspect is still sinister?

Mars will perfect another aspect with Saturn soon, but it will be moving forward, so it seems like in this instance it would be sinister, but in the other case it might be different. Under both scenarios, I believe Mars was always the faster planet, though Mars and Saturn have been close in their planetary speeds. I'm curious how these different scenarios might play out under different horaries. I can think of two health-related horaries that people have asked that might involve both of the different aspects (Mars going retro vs. Mars going forward for the aspect to perfect).

Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit

Go from the direction of the planet that is moving most quickly to the planet that is moving most slowly (the quicker planet forms the aspect, the slower planet receives it). The aspect between Mars in Leo and Saturn in Libra is currently a separating sinister sextile. It's not affected by direct or retrograde motion; it is only defined by the projection of the aspect rightwards (following diurnal motion) or leftwards (sinister), which is against diurnal motion but in the zodiacal order of the signs.

Regards
Deb
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Lilly (CA, p. 108, 109) an aspect is sinister when "it is an Aspect according to the succession of the Signes;(...)". A dexter aspect "is against the order of the Signes;(...)".

Other than you, Tanit, he (and others) says: "Observe the dexter aspect is more forcible then the sinister." (CA, p. 109)
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your replies, that clears up my confusion and makes it less complicated, as I had hoped.

Johannes:
Quote:
Other than you, Tanit, he (and others) says: "Observe the dexter aspect is more forcible then the sinister." (CA, p. 109)


I don't remember saying that sinister was more forcible, so I am not sure what you mean by "other than you." If I ever implied that somewhere, I am sorry, and am still learning daily. From what I understand, a sinister aspect can be more dysfunctional, especially when supported by other factors (here a mutual bad reception between two malefics)?

For anyone who might not know much about sinister/dexter, the Skyscript website has a section on this:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html

Quote:
... sinister aspect, because it is issued against the natural movement of heaven and has to 'look backwards', is weaker, distorted, inverted or somewhat debilitated.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit wrote:
Johannes:
Quote:
Other than you, Tanit, he (and others) says: "Observe the dexter aspect is more forcible then the sinister." (CA, p. 109)


I don't remember saying that sinister was more forcible, so I am not sure what you mean by "other than you."


Tanit, you wrote:
Quote:
Normally, if Mars was moving forward to an aspect from Leo to a planet in Libra, it would be sinister and would dominate in the aspect.

And this is in contradiction to the fact that Mars is the right one of both planets and not the left one and a left or sinister aspect is not so strong or forcible as the right or dexter aspect.

Your new quoting Deb:
Quote:
... sinister aspect, because it is issued against the natural movement of heaven and has to 'look backwards', is weaker, distorted, inverted or somewhat debilitated.
is an assertation of Lilly:
Quote:
Other than you, Tanit, he [Lilly](and others) [see your quote above] says: "Observe the dexter aspect is more forcible then the sinister." (CA, p. 109)

and a contradiction to your earlier opinion in the beginning of this thread.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And this is in contradiction to the fact that Mars is the right one of both planets and not the left one and a left or sinister aspect is not so strong or forcible as the right or dexter aspect.


Regarding Mars, I was referring mainly to the sinister/dexter diagram Deb has on the website. In the sinister aspect, the one applying (Moon) is dominating in the aspect. In this instance that would be Mars, as the sinister square Moon to Mercury in the diagram (Moon in Aries, Mercury in Capricorn). Moon looks to the left to Mercury, just as Mars looks to the left to Saturn, I think? It's looking backwards.

Am I mixing something up, because Deb said here that the aspect is sinister:

Quote:
The aspect between Mars in Leo and Saturn in Libra is currently a separating sinister sextile.
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Tanit



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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also an example in that website link (via Valens) of a sinister Venus-Saturn trine, where Venus dominates, and states it is better that the benefic dominates over the malefic. Here we have two malefics, but the peregrine malefic (Mars) is dominating.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me just summarize my understanding of this and then others can correct it-

1.Take the faster of the two planets(normal average daily motion ?)
2.Twist the zodiac circle to place that Planet on the ascendant cusp.
3.Now, if the slower planet is above the Earth -then the aspect is Dexter.
4.If the slower planet lies below the Earth- then the aspect is Sinister.


Mercury in Virgo,Mars in Sagittarius, Saturn in Gemini.

Place mercury as if it is rising in Asc.
Saturn is above Earth- This is Dexter square to Saturn
Mars is below earth- this is a Sinister square to Mars.

Between Mars and Saturn- Mars is faster.

Place Mars in Sagittarius in Asc-

Saturn in Gemini is still above earth- this Dexter oppostion to Saturn.

PD
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's correct PD. One way to conceptualise this is, in fact, to think of yourself as the planet rising on the ascendant, in the process of making an application. If you are making an aspect to a planet that is already in the sky (because it rose before you), then the aspect is following the rightward motion of heaven and is dexter (which is a more direct application: 'dexter' means rightward in Latin).
If the aspect is being made to a planet beneath the horizon (which will rise after you) then the aspect will look backwards and will be less direct. It is called sinister (leftwards in Latin) because planets on the ascendant are supposed to move rightwards up to the midheaven - any kind of leftwards association is therefore considered 'backwards' or 'into the dark'.

Hi Tanit - don't confuse the dominating position with the principles of dexter and sinsister. Dexter and sinsister is all about the direction in which an aspect is cast. 'Dominating' refers to the position held. The use of the 'dominating planet' doesn't find much expression outside of Hellenistic texts, but the details of how aspects are formed is used descriptively. Sorry, I didn't notice your earlier comment so I'm glad Johannes did and corrected that.

Deb
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After Deb's derivation is understood the most simple method to determine dexter and snister aspects in practice is to turn the chart and have the considered planets all above the earth. A planet's aspect to the right is a right or dexter aspect and an aspect to the left is a left or a sinister aspect. This conforms Lilly's definition of dexter and sinister aspects (CA, p. 108, 109) because it is a more static one: In one aspect one planet casts a dexter or right and the other planet casts a sinister or left aspect to its aspectual partner.

Once dexter and sinister aspects discovered it is very easy to decide which of the planets moves faster or perfects the aspect.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The use of the 'dominating planet' doesn't find much expression outside of Hellenistic texts, but the details of how aspects are formed is used descriptively.


OK, good to know! Glad I asked. Thumbs up
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