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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sun and Venus in Love Horaries
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:56 am    Post subject: Sun and Venus in Love Horaries Reply with quote

I am sorry if this has been asked before outright, but I can only remember it being briefly mentioned a few times while I have been a memeber. I am curious if other astrologers in the forum use the Sun to signify the man's physical side, and Venus for the woman's? I guess this would be Frawley's approach, though it seems to have evolved from Lilly's Christian Astrology?

Quote:
If it be a man that asketh the Question, joyne the Sun and Moon with his Significators, and make him partner in the Signification; and if it be a woman, joyne Venus and Moon, and make them partners.


There is also an assignment of the Moon as the emotions, and the main significator as the person as a whole, or the logical side of the person. I don't really see the Moon that way, and it would give no indication of the other party's emotional nature, only the querent's.

I sometimes find that this makes things more confusing, especially when the opposite gender ends up with its main significator taking one of those two planets. For example, the woman ends up as the Sun, or the man as Venus.

Have you found this to be accurate in your own readings (for yourself or people you have read for)?

For myself, I do remember that my very first horary (I asked of a professional) had Venus in Aries, which is a natal placement for me, and might be descriptive of that part of my nature. Venus was also in the Sun's exaltation, and it is true that I idealized him physically (as well as in other ways). In horaries for other people, it is sometimes hit or miss (or perhaps a misinterpretation on my part).
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use these co-signicators.

My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now. If venus is female querent, is she destroyed or about to get her wish? And same question if venus is co-significator. And what about when venus is cazimi?
And what would it mean if the male querent is venus?
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Goca



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PallasAthene wrote:

My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now.


According to J Frawley:
If conjunction with the Sun would give a Yes answer to the question, combustion can be ignored: the poor Sun would never get conjuncted otherwise!
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
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Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goca wrote:
PallasAthene wrote:

My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now.


According to J Frawley:
If conjunction with the Sun would give a Yes answer to the question, combustion can be ignored: the poor Sun would never get conjuncted otherwise!


With so much hot air around it- may be, that's how it should be Lala Happy

PD
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 693
Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goca wrote:
PallasAthene wrote:

My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now.


According to J Frawley:
If conjunction with the Sun would give a Yes answer to the question, combustion can be ignored: the poor Sun would never get conjuncted otherwise!


But if sun is merely a secondary significator?
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your speedy replies! Lala Happy

Quote:
I use these co-signicators.


So you wouldn't use them in a sexual context, just as a sort of extension of the querent/quesited?

Quote:
My problem area is when venus is combust sun, like now. If venus is female querent, is she destroyed or about to get her wish?


It seems like the Sun conjunct Venus would heat her up at the very least! Leery I wonder if that would increase an animal magnetism between the two parties. Conjunctions in particular can be more difficult aspects I guess. As stated on Skscript, things sort of hang in the balance.

I saw a question this week where someone used Venus as a co-sig, and she was combust the Sun as co-sig for the man. She was afraid to contact him after a period of not speaking to him. Venus also ruled the 3rd. So combustion might at least show fear, as usual. She did contact him though, and it was a favorable exchange.

Quote:
And what about when venus is cazimi?
And what would it mean if the male querent is venus?


That would indeed be a rare and nice placement, since she would essentially be in his heart. I might take that to be a love of someone's life, if other factors were in agreement. I saw one chart, delienated by someone other than myself, where the Moon was cazimi the Sun (as a co-sig for the man by the astrologer), and the querent replied that she believed she was the quesited's greatest love. I can't remember where I heard that Moon cazimi is considered negative though.

I have never seen a male Venus cazimi! That would be interesting to find out. If the male is Venus and cazimi his own co-sig, I might wonder if he was in love with himself, since he is literally within his own heart. Though Lilly calls cazimi planets "wondorous strong," which could mean many things. Venus itself is a planet of love and beauty, so it might just allow him to express the greater sides of Venus, and be more loving to the other party. Harking back to an old cazimi post, I guess Bonati said that the two planets unite as one. If we do give the Sun as his "male" side, I guess his logical/sexual side might be united, so he would know what he wants, etc.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry Tanit, but I think your approach to this matter is kind of absurd...

First you are mixing traditional and modern, which, pardon for the sincerity, is very bad in this particular case...

Second, the Sun and Venus, unless if by any accidental placement, will not be primary nor secondary significator. They will be tertiary. That said, I'd only look at them after positive testimony from the primary and/or secondary ones...

One thing to notice: in a love horary Venus and the Sun will never be the main significators, since we are looking at 1st and 7th, only Sun/Saturn and Venus/Mars is a possibility here. If the 1st house significator beholds the 1st house, we look at it, if not, we look at the Moon (cause the Moon is fastest, she can take the light of the AC ruler to the 7th ruler, giving a positive outcome, provided she beholds the AC sign and rules a good house, hopefully). If both the Moon and AC rulers are in for a promissing answer, to look at Sun and Venus is a way to see further testimony, since they are the natural significators of marriage (as taken from the lot by Valens).

If neither 1st/7th ruler and Moon are in agreement, their testimony is almost always (if not always always) entirely useless, in my opinion.

I'm not trying to reduce everything to technique (knowing motivations in a chart is a good thing) but searching to much drama damages as much as being exceding objective.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm sorry Tanit, but I think your approach to this matter is kind of absurd...


This isn't my approach, I was trying to figure out if this is something that is standard to most of you who do love horaries. The only time I have ever offered a Sun/Venus reading for someone is as my own advice to them when it is their own chart and they use this method.

In any case, I don't think anyone should be close-minded to any technique without trying it, or seeing if it has any relevance. I realize that horary is traditional in practice, especially since it is held within a smaller group of astrologers, and the ancient texts were only discovered over the past few tecades. I am a scientist, so I test theories. I never follow anything blindly. I am also very skeptical, and am always surprised when horary works at all.

Quote:
One thing to notice: in a love horary Venus and the Sun will never be the main significators, since we are looking at 1st and 7th, only Sun/Saturn and Venus/Mars is a possibility here.


I don't think any of us need a lesson on significator assignments. Confused The Sun or Venus may be taken, yes, and even by the opposite gender.
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 693
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFN wrote:

Second, the Sun and Venus, unless if by any accidental placement, will not be primary nor secondary significator. They will be tertiary. That said, I'd only look at them after positive testimony from the primary and/or secondary ones...


Could you explain what the secondary significators would be? Thanks.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit

I think that the issues concerning the use of this signification are commonly misunderstood, and hope to publish a detailed article about this soon. For now, unfortunately, my following point is very condensed so I hope it makes some sense.

The use of the Sun as a significator for the man and Venus as the woman is very ancient, and demonstrates the Babylonian perspective upon the synodic cycle of Venus as it encircles the Sun, (which makes a parallel with the biblical concept of the female consort ‘dancing around’ or ‘attending to’ her king and lover). In this, the various stages of Venus separating from, turning retrograde and returning to the Sun, being separated by the Sun, and then speeding up to return back to the Sun, is seen as a symbolic reflection of the themes of attraction, union/procreation and separation between the king and his female consort. These are collective themes, so at the moment what we have in play – underlying every horary asked about a relationship issue – is the mundane signature of Venus, the woman, applying to the Sun, completing a union with an act of surrender. This is the woman being prepared to lose her identity to become ‘as one’ in her partnership with the man.

This is the way that I keep an awareness of the meaning of this cycle as a background testimony in personal relationship horaries. Right now – in general terms - astrological timing does not support a woman playing hard to get and expecting a chase (this agrees with your experience of the recent horary you mentioned). At other times, the cycle might show that it is in a woman’s interest to hold back a little, or that a man should expect to work hard if he wants to reconcile with a lover after a disagreement. Traditional passages that show the cycle being used in this way are integrated into the works of Dorotheus, Sahl, Haly, Bonatti and most of the traditional horary texts I have seen. This does not override the use of the main significators but offers an underlying detail to consider. It’s like knowing that the weather in one month is generally different from that of another, without knowing for sure, which of two dates is likely to be most pleasant.

In the traditional use of the technique we consider only how the Sun and Venus are relating to each other. In a question asked by a woman, for example, there is no use of the 7th house ruler applying to Venus to show that the man is interested in the woman; the signification only makes use of the Sun and Venus as they are locked into their own cycle.

It really helps if students get a good understanding of the symbolism embedded into the inferior planet synodic cycles. The superior conjunction of Venus with the Sun is a major astrological event which is about to occur on January 11th. (Many modern texts claim that the inferior conjunction, which occurs when Venus is retrograde, is the start of the new cycle, but that is not correct, it is this superior conjunction which matters most!) If you can get a copy, the next issue of the Mountain Astrologer has an article of mine which explores the use of the Venus-Sun symbolism, and shows how their synodic cycle is incorporated into traditional horary technique. It has some good diagrams which were drawn with my own horary students in mind. For contractual reasons I won’t be able to reproduce that article on Skyscript, but hope to publish a different article, about the principles of signification in relationship charts in the spring of next year.

I hope that half-explaining hasn’t added to the confusion. One point I make to my students is that if this Sun-Venus signification leaves them confused, it is safer to overlook it. This is a background influence and the main significators tell the most important story. So if in doubt, stick with them, and don’t let the horary judgement get too complicated.

Deb
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PallasAthene wrote:
Could you explain what the secondary significators would be? Thanks.


I take that the primary ones are always the rulers of the houses and the secondary is the Moon. The Moon can be more important sometimes, but that is a special case, when the main significator is averse to the AC sign and the Moon is not. But if you get a situation where the main rulers are applying and the Moon does give a negative testimony, I think that the usual approach is to see the Moon as a hinder, but still the matter achieves perfection (unless other things like cadence or affliction gets in the way).
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the traditional use of the technique we consider only how the Sun and Venus are relating to each other. In a question asked by a woman, for example, there is no use of the 7th house ruler applying to Venus to show that the man is interested in the woman; the signification only makes use of the Sun and Venus as they are locked into their own cycle.


Thanks so much for your reply, Deb, and I can't wait for the Skyscript article next year (can't afford the Mountain Astrologer right now). This passage right here especially answers the major question I have been having about Sun/Venus in romance horaries. I did not want to make a connection between L1 or L7 (or Moon) to Sun or Venus either (as I have seen others do and wonder about their accuracy).

The dance between Sun and Venus is so apropos, but you are right that Venus surrendering is a bit chauvinistic! Yet, it still seems to give clues about who is chasing who, and how Sun and Venus look upon each other. If it hadn’t worked on my own horary (which I looked back on much later to test it), I probably would have been dismissive like many others.
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AquaStella



Joined: 17 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference between Venus Combust and Venus Cazimi, according to the bible

In the biblical book of Esther (= Ishtar = Venus) one can find a very interesting and illustrative description of the difference between Venus being Combust and Cazimi:

Esther (hebrew name for Ishtar=Venus) was a jewish girl, married to the Persian King. In chapter 4 of The Book of Esther one finds the following verses (describing combustion by the Sun):

Quote:
“11 All the king’s servants, and all the provinces that are under his dominion, know, that whosoever, whether man or woman, cometh into the king’s inner court, who is not called for, is immediately to be put to death without any delay: except the king shall hold out the golden sceptre to him, in token of clemency, that so he may live. How then can I go in to the king, who for these thirty days now have not been called unto him?”


In Chapter 5 one finds the following verses (describing Venus Cazimi):

Quote:
“1 And on the third day Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king’s house, over against the king’s hall: now he sat upon his throne in the hall of the palace, over against the door of the house. 2 And when he saw Esther the queen standing, she pleased his eyes, and he held out toward her the golden sceptre, which he held in his hand and she drew near, and kissed the top of his sceptre. 3 And the king said to her: What wilt thou, queen Esther? what is thy request? if thou shouldst even ask one half of the kingdom, it shall be given to thee.”


We can also find interesting such descriptions in the book of Daniel (in the Lion's den and The fiery furnace).
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:

Quote:
Right now – in general terms - astrological timing does not support a woman playing hard to get and expecting a chase (this agrees with your experience of the recent horary you mentioned). At other times, the cycle might show that it is in a woman’s interest to hold back a little, or that a man should expect to work hard if he wants to reconcile with a lover after a disagreement.


Would anyone have any trouble using it a little more symbolically – that this “woman” could be a woman or man who is trying to draw toward herself or himself another woman or man? This would make Venus the significator of either a woman or a man, the person who is playing the more traditionally 'feminine' role of attracting or drawing toward herself or himself a sexual or relationship partner. The trouble is, if we start applying it toward same-sex couples based on who is doing the attracting and who is the powerful masculine object of desire, then we need to be able to switch Sun and Venus for heterosexual couples too, depending on who is more actively or passively participating in the exchange. That starts to make a mess of tidy symbolism.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Kirk"]Deb wrote:

Quote:
The trouble is, if we start applying it toward same-sex couples based on who is doing the attracting and who is the powerful masculine object of desire, then we need to be able to switch Sun and Venus for heterosexual couples too, depending on who is more actively or passively participating in the exchange. That starts to make a mess of tidy symbolism.



Homosexual relationships can be tricky but, at this point, i'd simply leave the natural significators of femininity and masculinity out of the picture- delineating natal charts of homosexual people and answering their questions about love life, marriage (i'll simply call it marriage here regardless of whether it can or will become official in terms of legal marriage), quality of relationships and communication with their own sex even the prospect of having children (and how) is tricky enough- well balanced aspects between natural significators do not work any more or, in better words, do not have the expected manifestation in private/love life, the Sun can always be a husband but will the traditional aphorisms work now that we don't have a very feminine planet on the other side to represent the wife (since we don't have a wife)....all, very, very tricky.


As for the last part of your post, Kirk, I have noticed that, in Horary relationship/marriage charts, mars/venus rulerships on 1st/7th axes often show up when the partners are "equal" in some way- equally interested in starting a relationship (similar average velocity could be a good reason - the people walk towards each other unlike i situations when a very slow planet, like Mercury, applies to Jupiter as, then we can assume that Mercury represents the more ardent and active of the two), mutual wish to stay married, relationship generally full of understanding etc. But, at the same time, I have seen surprisingly many charts were woman's Ascendant was placed in the rulership of Mars- very recently I found it in a chart cast for a question of a female Querent; her boyfriend had proposed to her 3 months prior to the question and after 7 years of relationship only the things soon started going downhill with no obvious reason. Long story short- she was a very liberal girl (young woman) and even a feminist but also a Roman catholic (though, not a practical believer) whilst her boyfriend was from a Jewish family and his parents were not really comfortable with her beliefs but didn't like the fact that she was a Catholic either- after 7 years of spending almost every single day with her, he was ashamed to admit that he comes from a family that hates feminists and was literally afraid to say that in front of her; their relationship became a mess only because he was afraid that he might actually lose her if she'd find out about his parents attitude. At the same time- she thought that he had cooled off. So, she got Mars as her ruler for a good reason. Smile

Quote:
Would anyone have any trouble using it a little more symbolically – that this “woman” could be a woman or man who is trying to draw toward herself or himself another woman or man?


I'd say that the whole chart should be taken into consideration in such cases as well as the nature of the question as well as of the situation- the Lord of the Quesited conjunct Venus could obviously be a good sign of the Querent's "man" having an affair with another woman but, of course, as long as it is possible in reality.
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