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An Excellent Solar Return Book
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Steve



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 261

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:07 am    Post subject: Jack Tatum Reply with quote



Jack Tatum, legendary known in the football arena as a fierce NFL Linebacker, died today July 27th 2010—RIP. From other astrological sites there is an AA rated birth time: Dec. 18th 1948, 7:00 PM, Cherryville, North Carolina. 35N22:43 081W22:45. After Tatum retired from football, he struggled with Diabetes and in 2003 had five toes amputated from his left foot and part of his right leg amputated. Above is his 2002 Precessed Solar Return, relocated to his residence in Oakland, California. This Solar Return covers most of the calendar year 2003.

Note the angular conjunction of Solar Moon with Solar Saturn and the full moon opposition of Solar Moon with Solar Sun. Also note the tight 45’s and 135’s with Solar Mar’s-Solar Neptune to the Solar Moon-Solar Saturn conjunction.

Steve
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Steve,

Really great thread!

If we use the non-relocated precessed Solar Return (for Tatum), it looks very indicative of the year. (12/2002->12/2003)

(Solar Return in center to preserve Return Houses for these comments...)

The SR Saturn-SR Moon-N Uranus opposition to the Sun, with SR Saturn (loss of organs) right on the opposition to Topocentric 8th, surgery, stands out. The same SR Saturn-SR Moon-N Uranus is closely in sesquisquare to the SR Venus-Mars conjunction in 6th. Jupiter is squaring Venus (symbolic for diabetes) with Venus in and ruling the 6th. SR Moon is right on N Uranus (r. N 8th). Neptune sits on the Midheaven. SR Mercury right on the 9th puts him back in the news. For what? SR Mercury sits right on his natal Mars-Asc opposition (surgery).



Take care, Steve and keep up the great work!

Atlantean
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Steve



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply to Atlantean Reply with quote

Thanks Atlantean,

I feel the very few Western Siderealists (with their brilliant techniques) of the 50’s, 60’s, & 70’s were not duly recognized by mainstream astrologers for two main reasons:

1: The Sidereal Zodiac vs. the Tropical Zodiac controversy. But actually, the techniques of Western Siderealists can be practiced in the Tropical Zodiac without losing their astrological core validity.

2: The astrological techniques of Cyril Fagan, practiced by the Western Siderealists, require an extreme amount of technical astronomy/math. Very few astrologers could cope with these technical issues. Now every astrologer has software that can handle these technical/math issues with a proper keystroke.

The Western Siderealists are dying off. I am getting old and am endeavoring to build a bridge for the new generation of astrologers for better understanding with Fagan’s work-- where they can pass on to other future astrologers the same understanding and astrological merit of Fagan’s life work.

I have gleamed astrological merit with your posts and want to learn more pertaining to your astrological work. It appears to me you have specialized in Marr’s astrological techniques; whereas, I have specialized in Fagan’s astrological techniques. I am now retired and have lots of time which allows me the time to devote to this thread. If you ever find yourself with lots of time, I would like to see you start a teaching thread (under Nativities & General Astrology) pertaining to your astrological work and experiences with Marr’s work. I feel this would help astrologers better understand your astrological work.

Regards, Steve
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Steve,

Thanks!

A thoughtful, complimentary, mutually appreciative message, left in support without competitive undertones....how very refreshing!

Re: Fagan

I agree with you. At the crucial time when others would have needed to "jump on the bandwagon", the math was pretty complex and "prohibitive" for the masses.

Still, techniques that work, WORK.

You are right, I am immersed in the methods from Alexander Marr, but also don't lose sight that the PSSR technique ultimately derives from Fagan and so, though not a Faganite (in the truest sense), there is still some overlap.

The fact that the PSSR aspects are used as a confirmation for rectifications performed using other systems, surely indicates that the technique itself must be quite reliable. In fact, for searches with too wide of time-span, Isaac often uses the PSSR and appropriate aspect maturity in order to diminish the search range and cause Polaris to give more conclusive results.

Re: Siderealists dying off

Tell me about it. Count how many people are using Polaris and Alexander Marr's methods. Something I've always known... popularity of something seldom relates directly with quality.

Re: Your suggestion about starting a thread with these methods

I may very well take you up on that idea. I am also beginning more work on my website, so it may be that the materials show up there. Still, I can see value in taking a case or two and (on the Forum) really wringing out all the details to show how these systems perform reliably.

As I said before, much luck with this. I find this thread very interesting and equally as important to the material is your enthusiasm in presenting it.

Bravo

Atlantean
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BiBi_Anderson



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 82

Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we need to look at more relocated quotidian charts for timing events, the chart for Vicky Grell looks pretty convincing.
Astrology to me is still very confusing, but the most reliable methods have been Western Sidereal. I just wish there could be less hind sight, I know the massive size of the universe makes it difficult to predict things, but I thought we'd maybe be more advanced at this point.
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Steve



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply to BiBi Reply with quote

Quote:
BiBi wrote:
I just wish there could be less hind sight, I know the massive size of the universe makes it difficult to predict things, but I thought we'd maybe be more advanced at this point.


There are layers of astrology. Even though a Solar Return is an excellent prognostication technique, we still have to rely on hindsight to offer us the complete picture with planetary symbolism. Very rarely can we predict with 100% accuracy—we can only see the natures of the planets manifest with their innate meanings.

Regards, Steve
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BiBi_Anderson



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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Steve, but what about charts that seem to sometimes look very promising, like lunar returns, but can sometimes manifest nothing at all. I know all the charts have to be in agreement, but sometimes these charts seem to fizzle. Jim raves about lunar returns, I find the negative ones seem to manifest the most intensely, even if the planets are weakly on the angles, while positive lunar returns even tightly placed with positive planets seem to sometimes manifest nothing, and when they do it's usually weak.....at least for me. I have just barely started doing research on solunars for friends and family members, and so far they have had better luck...I think it has something to do with my Venus/Jupiter natal square so weakly placed!
I have not had the sun an angle for a Solar for about 10 years(since my late teens), so maybe that could be it too, feeling a loss of vitality. I should probably relocate Smile

One more thing I wanted to discuss was transits, to Natal, Lunar, and Solar Returns, obviously if they're on an angle and stationary they're going to have the most pronounced effect, which is what happened with my engagement, but I noticed Vicky Grell had nothing really going on as far as transits goes when she won the 25,000. Which leads me to ask, do they need to be there as an outside influence or can the SQ and other progressed charts sustain themselves in that regard?
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Steve



Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply to BiBi Reply with quote

Hi BiBi-

Most lunar returns manifest nothing of importance. I have found Bradley’s statement about lunar returns to be very true. Paraphrasing his statement, he teaches lunar returns can be very powerful in immediate effect but lunar returns are ‘subservient’ to the preceding solar return. It is critical to understand what Bradely means by ‘subservient.’ If you read a solar return as malefic then it will take a malefic planet(s) tight or partile on the lunar angles to manifest significant incidents. And it is very important that the angular malefic planet on the lunar return angles be aspected to other malefic planet(s). A benefic angular lunar return cannot be ‘subservient’ to a malefic solar return or vice versa. I have seen many benefic lunar returns manifest nothing of significance because the solar return was neutral or malefic but I have seen many malefic lunar returns manifest ‘outstanding incidents’ being ‘subservient’ to a preceding malefic solar return or vice versa with benefic solar returns and a benefic lunar return. You see—the key is the word ‘subservient!’ It should be clearly understood most solar returns that cover a normal life span are neutral in planetary effects—these neutral solar returns are just part of our normal ho-hum ever day living. If you have a ho-hum solar return then a super malefic or super benefic lunar return cannot be ‘subservient’ to a neutral ho-hum solar return—in other words—no manifested events occur. When I see a solar retun that I consider neutral--I don't bother with analyzing lunar returns--Jim would probably disagree with me on this point but I am expressing my own opinion with my own experiences with lunar returns taking the 'subservient' key from Bradley.

This ‘subservient’ connation also applies in a similar manner for Quotidian Charts. For example, Vicky Grell who won 25k had a super benefic solar return, and on the day she won the 25k she had a super benefic Solar Quotidian Day. Her Quotidian winning day was big time ‘subservient’ to her super benefic solar return. This has been explained with an earlier post in this thread. No transits of any kind need to be involved with return or quotidian charts to manifest events. But at times transits to return or quotidian charts will ‘fire off’ symbolism. Sometimes a lunar return will time when the symbolism in a solar return will ‘fire off’—sometimes the Quotidian will ‘fire off’ the solar return symbolism. Quotidians and partile progressed aspects with solar returns can indeed sustain the main planetary symbolism for an event.

Don’t get overly intoxicated with the chart examples in this thread. These chart examples are taken mainly from the World Stage of Native’s, with an AA rated chart, when the ‘outstanding incident’ occurs, in order to demonstrate the true Sacred Science of planetary symbolism with an accurate computed solar return pertaining to Jim’s teachings. It should be understood-- we are dealing with figure heads of famous people—the mass of humanity is not made-up of famous people—just ordinary folks like ourselves leading ordinary ho-hum lives. Outstanding Incidents don’t occur every year in our lives and when they do occur they certainly are not glamorized by the media as they are with famous people. I hope this helps in answering some of your issues and questions.

Regards, Steve
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Steve



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Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:45 pm    Post subject: 'Subservient' Lunar Returns to Solar Returns Reply with quote

I will offer an excellent example of how lunar returns are ‘subservient’ to the preceding solar return with Obama’s 2009 Precessed Solar Return relocated to Washington D.C., and future possibilities with his 2010 Solar Return.

Obama’s birth data (AA rated): Aug 4th, 1961, 7:24 PM AHST +10:00HRS. Honolulu, Hawaii 21N18:25, 157W51:30. Ascendant: 18AQU03 Tropical.

Computing Obama’s 2009 Precessed Solar Return relocated to Washington DC computes an Ascendant of 9VI59.

Jim Eshelman in his most excellent book ‘Interpreting Solar Return,’ clearly states the first step for analyzing a Solar Return is to see what planets (both solar & natal), if any, fall in the foreground (7.5 degrees) of the solar return angles. We note that solar Mercury (transiting Mercury) is conjunct Natal Pluto in the foreground of Solar Ascendant. Jim clearly teaches this Mercury-Pluto symbolism will dominate the ‘Theme’ for the Solar Year. The best delineation book I have ever read pertaining to combinations of planetary influence with Solar Returns is Donald Bradley’s book ‘Solar and Lunar Returns.’ Bradley’s planetary delineations are uncanny in their acute accuracy pertaining to Nativity astrology. Donald Bradley was the Research Director for the Llewellyn Foundation for Astrological Research. Llewellyn Publication published ‘Solar and Lunar Returns’ as well as many other astrology books. I think ‘Solar and Lunar Returns’ is out of print but can still be purchased from used book outlets. Llewellyn was so impressed with Bradley’s work; Llewellyn stated on the second page of this book, the reader had permission to quote brief quotations embodied in critical articles or reviews.

Here is what Bradley stated about Mercury-Pluto symbolism when prominent in Return Charts:

Quote:
“Mercury-Pluto: Circumstances cause great nervous tension when Mercury and Pluto are prominently related. The native may be backed up against the wall of convention or written law, and must “fight his way out” of his/her predicament. Crises arise which tax his patience, force him to “face the music,” and declare openly their stand on matters. Under terrific nervous pressure, the native may be forced into unpleasant circumstances. This influence is the astrological index of “being given the third degree.”


Any astrologer who is close to Washington politics pertaining to poll numbers, can clearly see Bradley’s above words about Mercury-Pluto symbolism-- is exactly what Obama has been ‘facing’ (experiencing) since his 2009 Solar Return. This symbolism has dominated the ‘Theme’ of his working environment—he has rapidly lost popularity with the people of the land compared to his popular win of the Presidency in 2008. There are other prominent sidereal astrology malefic factors involved with Obama’s 2009 Solar Return and coupled with Obama’s malefic Naboid progressed chart—we can see Obama is ‘faced’ with malefic influences.
Since I see malefic factors with Obama’s 2009 Solar Return, I want to run out all 13 of his Lunar Returns to see if any lunar return will time any crisis time frames of a month. Since Obama 2009 Solar Return is set up in a malefic manner, I am not expecting to see any dynamic benefic lunar returns; and, also since I use Bradley’s ‘subservient’ rule with lunar returns being ‘subservient’ to the preceding solar return, I am only looking for dynamic malefic lunar returns (lots of tight or partile angular activity with other tight or partile aspects), I am not going to pay any attention to other non dynamic lunar returns or a benefic lunar return—Bradley ‘subservient’ rule does not allow a benefic lunar return to be ‘subservient’ to a malefic solar return—there will be no benefic manifestations. Dynamic malefic lunar returns that occur with Obama since his 2009 Solar Return occur in Sept. & Oct 2009. This is when Obama instructed his party members to conduct town hall meetings pertaining to Obama’s health care agenda. There was an up-rising of town hall members across the country who voiced strong opinions against Obama health care plan and all of the bailouts with government spending. But the most striking malefic lunar return occurred on Dec. 29th 2009. This lunar return features much dynamic angular activity and is full of partile aspects. Precessing this lunar return and relocating it to Washington DC computes a MC of 19LEO10. Note Mars is 19LEO11 and receives partile 45 from Saturn, partile 135 from Venus and Pluto. Saturn is partile 90 Pluto and partile 45 MC. Saturn is also partile 120 lunar Moon. This lunar return, using clear rules from Jim’s book is absolutely screaming a malefic event to occur in the lunar period from Dec 29 2009 to app. Jan 26 2010. This lunar return is a malefic return and is ‘subservient’ to the preceding 2009 solar return. The event was Scott Brown; a Republican won the Massachusetts Senate Race giving the Republicans filibuster power in the Senate. This was only the second time in history a Republican won the senate in the state of Massachusetts. This was a blow to Obama’s agendas and confirmed the people of the land were turning against Obama’s policies—which the polls are still reflecting today.

What is very interesting, if you compute Obama’s 2010 Precessed Solar Return, relocated to DC, you will see he has the same Mercury-Pluto symbolism but it has shifted from his 2009 Solar Return Ascendant to his 2010 MC. His 2010 Solar Return computes a MC of 6VI19. So we see he still has this Mercury-Pluto as the main ‘Theme’ according to Jim’s teachings from his book ‘Interpreting Solar Returns.’ What kind of ‘music’ will Obama ‘face’ with the mid-term elections? Reviewing the lunar return preceding Mid-Term election that has already been posted, we see a malefic lunar set up-with tight Neptune angular activity receiving aspects from the two malefics Mars & Saturn. We clearly see a malefic lunar again being ‘subservient’ to the malefic Mercury-Pluto ‘Theme’ of his 2010 Solar Return—the same as his 2009 Solar Return ‘Theme.’ Again, we see the Sacred Science of Return Charts from sidereal astrology techniques.

Regards, Steve
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With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan
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BiBi_Anderson



Joined: 28 May 2007
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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's amazing how the moon on its own is not that special, but when in the SR or Progressed Chart, it really sets themes. I guess it only exherts its maximum influence when allowed to by the Sun, and other primary astrological factors.
I will continue to watch lunar Returns, but only the ones that in complete agreement with Progressed Charts and Solar Returns
Maria
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horarcek



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Location: Slovenia

Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steve,
would you be so kind and tell what is the starting point for Obama´s Lunar returns. With Solar Fire I get Lunar return at Dec 18th using his natal chart and precessed for DC, and Dec 9th using Solar Return precessed chart as starting point.
I get SRP for 2009 10°02 Virgo so here I was correct but I have problems with Lunar returns.
Thanks,
Trojan
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Steve



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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply to Maria Reply with quote

Quote:
Maria wrote:
It's amazing how the moon on its own is not that special, but when in the SR or Progressed Chart, it really sets themes.


In most cases, our lunar returns are ‘not that special.’ Try to get in a habit of running out your 13 annual lunar returns within the Solar Return year (can be done easily with SF) and ONLY note the ones that feature tight or partile angular planetary contacts. In many cases there will be no tight/partile angular contacts with your 13 annual lunar returns. When you do find a tight/partile angular contact with a lunar return—this angular contact MUST feature tight/partile aspects to other planets in order to symbolize an ‘outstanding incident,’ within the time frame of the lunar return—just an angular contact by itself will not produce an ‘outstanding incident.’ And then when you have isolated an angular contact lunar return with tight/partile aspects to other planets, you THEN MUST always apply Bradley’s ‘subservient’ rule (this is a critical step) for lunar returns (which I have explained in a previous post) in order to witness an ‘outstanding incident’ with planetary symbolism. The above analysis only takes 5-10 minutes of time with SF and allows an individual at times to stand witness to certain planetary manifestations in our individual environments.

One of the most amazing symbolic effects in astrology I have stood witness to-is the symbolic action of Solar Moons. I think many examples in this thread demonstrate the symbolic importance of our Solar Moons. Always pay close attention to your Solar Moon aspects and her secondary progressed aspects—both to solar & natal planets.

Regards, Steve
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With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan
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Steve



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Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply to Trojan Reply with quote

Hi Trojan,

The two Precessed Lunar returns I am referring are:

1: Dec. 29th 2009, 4:02:53 AM EDT +4:00HRS, Washington DC, 38N53:42, 077W02:12.
This Precessed Lunar Return is ‘subservient’ to his 2009 Precessed Solar Return. This Lunar Return covered the time period when he suffered a big political loss in the senate race in Mass.—when Scott Brown, a Republican, won the senate seat. This prevented Obama’s Party from voting/winning any law they wanted in the Senate. It was an ‘outstanding event,’ relative to Obama’s political objectives.

2: Oct. 25th 2010, 3:23:07 PM EDT +4:00 HRS, Washington DC, 38N53:42, 077W02:12.
This Precessed Lunar Return (malefic) is ‘subservient’ to his 2010 Precessed Solar Return. This Lunar Return will cover the time period for the Nov. 2nd 2010 midterm elections.

Both of these Lunar Returns are the ONLY two lunar returns since his 2009 Solar Return; which perfectly describes Jim’s teaching criteria for an ‘outstanding event,’ where Jim states from his book, ‘Interpreting Solar Returns:’

Quote:
“It is when angularity and aspect partility coincide that outstanding incidents are most likely to come about.”


It would appear, Obama’s Oct.25th Precessed Lunar Return (malefic) located to DC is confirming what the opinion polls are saying—Obama’s Party will experience an ‘outstanding incident’ by suffering more political losses.

If this post does not clear your issues and questions, PM me and I will try to determine what your problem is for computing the lunar returns in question.

Regards, Steve
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With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan
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BiBi_Anderson



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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You so much Steve, it does help answer a lot of questions Very Happy
I guess it's maybe a product of having a Sagittarius moon, constantly comparing yourself to others and keeping up with the Jonses.
It's just so ironic, I've read so many books on astrology that have been raved about, but were all just really jibberish. Very few are right or accurate about predicting with astrology, and even then you really can't call it predicting, just general trends in life. That's what I like about most Western Siderealist, they don't make claims unless they have a lot of information about the native.
One of the few accurate predictions by an astrologer was made by Jim and the resignation of Nixon.
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Steve



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Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply to BiBi Reply with quote

Hi, BiBi
Even more so than prediction, sidereal astrology techniques allow the astrologer to see excellent planetary symbolism in their own individual life.

Regards, Steve
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