Galileo's chart/s

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Some questions about Galileo's chart/s : True birthtime of Galileo!

(to Deb. Houlding and others)

I've read the articles on the subject posted by Deb and Nicholas Kollertrom here (and others elsewhere).

For instance, N. K. (or his editor ?, unaware of what is part of fortune) wrote in "Galileo's First Trial", Astronomy Now, 2004 : "The birth date here given was at what we would call 4 pm on the 16th of February (New Style) while in the old style it was at 22 hours of the 15th. (...) The sigyls (symbols) for the Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn can be seen, plus there?s a ?path of fortune? that is an arithmetic differential between Sun, Moon and ascendant longitudes. This told him where his good luck should lie! At the top he computed the longitudes from the tables, for each planet, summarized on the left together with celestial latitudes. He needed the latter for an (to us) obscure technique called ?primary directions?, which was designed to give guidance over the course of a life."

My questions are :

- What is the exact birthtime of Galileo, as given in the chart/s?
(cautiously ?, it appears that no modern chart has been posted by N. Kollertrom, nor by D. Houlding)

- There is a difference between the charts given by Galileo (which can been reproduced) and the birthdata as interpreted by Nick and Deb.
Who is right/wrong ? Galileo was not able to calculate properly his own chart/s ? ! Or ...

- Who could explain what has been calculated in Astrodatabank : http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Galileo%2C_Galilei ??

The Source Notes have :

"Nick Kollerstrom photocopied two charts from the Florence library (in hand), accepted as authentically drawn by Galileo himself. The top of the chart reads February 15, 22:30 after sunset. Sunset time is 16:57 plus 22.30 is 3:27 PM GMT of the 16th plus 42 minutes from Pisa equals 4:09 LMT, minus 14 minutes correction equals 3:55 PM LAT. The second chart has 14 Leo 33 ASC, equals 3:59 PM GMT, February 16 OS, 1564, Pisa: this may have been closer to his final opinion"

But the "From memory Rodden Rating A" is for "25 February 1564 (greg.) at 15:31 (= 3:31 PM )"
(i.e. 15 Feb. jul. with AS 11.57 LEO and Moon 20.50 ARI)

P. Guinard,
Director CURA

Re: Galileo's chart/s

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patrice_guinard wrote:Some questions about Galileo's chart/s : True birthtime of Galileo!

P. Guinard,
Director CURA
I have another variant taken from Grazia Mirti and Serena Foglia "The astrological work of Galileo found at National Library in Florence" (European Conference in London, 1993) published in Linguaggio Astrale, n.88- 1992.

It is not the chart showed by our guest Deborah Houlding; Mirti and Foglia say it comes from Biblioteca Nazionale in Firenze, but they don't quote which manuscript- they say just anonymous of XVII century.

Ascendant is at 5.36 Leo, MC 20.20 Aries; Moon is at 10.50 Aries.

p.s. Thanks for the wonderful DIAL, there are very precious books collected there, more than EEBO

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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I have another variant taken from Grazia Mirti and Serena Foglia "The astrological work of Galileo found at National Library in Florence" (European Conference in London, 1993) published in Linguaggio Astrale, n.88- 1992.

It is not the chart showed by our guest Deborah Houlding; Mirti and Foglia say it comes from Biblioteca Nazionale in Firenze, but they don't quote which manuscript- they say just anonymous of XVII century.

Ascendant is at 5.36 Leo, MC 20.20 Aries; Moon is at 10.50 Aries.

p.s. Thanks for the wonderful DIAL, there are very precious books collected there, more than EEBO

margherita

Merci Marguerite, for this reply. Seems that there are no many people interested here in Galileo's birth time.

So I will try to reply :

Concerning Astrodatabank : I'm still wondering what they are doing in Astrodatabank, quoting Kollertrom's article as source and taking another day and hour, as a "Rodden Rating A" ! -- still waiting also for a reply from Alois ...

It seems to me that the charts have been calculated by Galileo for 3.45 and 4.15 pm, not for 3.30 and 4.00 pm. You can find here : http://cura.free.fr/09-10/912galo.html an English summary of an article that i've post on Cura. You can find the link to "Astrologica nonnulla" in Dial, and in the manuscript, the third chart at the recto of folio 37.

"The Birth of Galileo : the 15 of February 1564, in Pisa, at 15:33 pm : Summary. In a manuscript known as "Astrologica nonnulla" (Florence Library, ms. Galilei 81, 48 ff., : see DIAL for the online reading), Galileo gives two charts for his birth in Pisa the 15th of February ? 22:30 (of a day beginning at sunset at 17:30 "pm" modern style), and another one the 16 of February at 3.30 "pm" (= post meridiem, old style), i.e. three hours and an half after the true culmination of the Sun (at 12:15 in Pisa), i.e. at 15:45 pm. Galileo seems to work with these two charts to find his right birthtime : the 16 of February around 16:10 pm. (In his article on Galileo published in 2001 (and available on Skyscript website in 2004), Nicholas Kollerstrom (or his editor) mentions "Two charts for Galileo's birth by himself, 3.30 and 4.00 p.m on February 16th 1564, published by Biblioteca Nazionale, Florence in 1980." Again in 2004 : "The birth date here given was at what we would call 4 pm on the 16th of February (New Style) while in the old style it was at 22 hours of the 15th." (Galileo's First Trial, Astronomy Now, 2004). In fact these "p. m." are not the modern ones but true "post meridiem" hours, and the charts are rightly calculated by Galileo for around 3.45 and 4.15 pm, not for 3.30 and 4.00 pm ). But in the same manuscript, at the folio 37 recto, he gives other indications and a third chart ... "


My best wishes for the new year.

Patrice
Patrice Guinard PhD
C.U.R.A.
The International Astrology Research Center
http://cura.free.fr

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Hi Patrice

I was on holiday when this thread was started, and so it has escaped my notice until now.

With regards to Galileo's birth chart, all that I know of this has been stated on the following link, which shows a photograph of the charts that he calculated himself ? the ones that you refer to. I analyse the use of techniques that are suggested by that worksheet and propose that he probably did not know the exact time of birth, since the second chart demonstrates the use of the Animodar method of rectification (I explain my reasoning on that page).

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/galchart.html

Best regards
Deb

rectification for Galileo

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We have 4 possible charts for Galileo: Partice in his article gave us 3 versions and Margherita gave us additional chart.
Using over 40 major events in his life and with my program Polaris it didn't take me much time to find out that the only possible chart is casting for 16 Feb 1564 OS 15.55.56 LMT Asc 17Leo27' Moon 6Tau44', very close to the chart Deb published in her article.
Here it is a sample for some major events:
1. 13 Aug 1600 Daughter Maria was born
Primary directions in Topocentric system:
Asc 180 Mer 3'
Secondary: Ven 0 MC 7', Moon 120 NN 18'
2. 7 Dec 1592 Inaugural lecture
Primary:
Ven 120 MC 3'
III 180 Sun 5'
Moon 180 III 5'
Jup 180 NN 9'
Secondary: III 90 Jup 4'
3. 26 Aug 1609 the telescope
Primary: Asc 180 Ven 7'
4. 3 Jan 1631 Death of brother
Primary:
III 180 Nep 1'
Nep 90 MC 4'
5. 21 Aug 1606 son born
Primary:
MC 0 Ven 1'
V 60 Ven 2'
Asc 60 Mer 1'
Secondary: Moon 120 Mer 8' and regressed Moon 60 Ura 0'
6. 12 March 1610 publication of his book Sidereus Nuncius
Primary:
Sun 180 Jup 4'
Jup 120 Moon 0'
7. May 1623 Death of sister
Primary: Sat 180 Mer 9'
8. 8 Jan 1642 Death
Primary: Plu 90 Asc 4'
Lunar return, precession corrected: Saturn on IC, Neptune on Asc and Pluto on Desc.
In the converse lunar return, Saturn on Asc and Mars on MC.

In his chart there is almost perfect grand trine with helio Mercury, helio Jupiter and helio Uranus. Helio Mars 60 MC.
The pre-Natal Epoch, according to the system of Alexander Marr is casting for 27 May 1563 OS 15.34.20 UT Asc 6Sco54' Moon 17Leo31', In both the radix and in the epoch, Moon conjunct MC 60 Sun- extremely rare case. In his epoch, helio Mercury 120 helio Uranus, 60 Mercury.

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Hi Deb, you can examine Galileo's manuscript at this address, http://fermi.imss.fi.it/rd/bdv?/bdviewe ... 0000935139 (Dial, year 1601), and see by yourself what to think about these three charts.
It?s great that this digital text is now available in full, and I have added this link to the list of traditional manuscripts on the texts page. Thanks for pointing it out. Let me explain that the link I gave earlier in this thread refers to the same manuscript, so I have seen these charts for myself, two of them being from the worksheet that I analysed on that link. Claudio Cannistra was also kind enough to give me photocopies of Galileo?s work before it was available online. For me, the really interesting point is the demonstrated use of the animodar system of chart rectification, by which it appears Galileo did not possess an accurate recording of his own birth time. This would not be shocking since lesser folks of that age often didn?t know their day of birth, let alone the time.

Perhaps Isaac?s historical rectification is the way to go on this? In any event I don?t personally feel that I have more to add as things stand.

With best regards
Deb

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What about the third chart cast for the previous day?

If I understand well the French article, it comes from Galileo too.

It fits with the anonymous chart given by Grazia Mirti, who should be Cannistr? source, if I know a little Italian astrology :)

Unfortunately she does not give the shelf mark of the manuscript she quoted.

It's strange Galileo moved his birthday from a day to another.

Or the third chart comes from someone else?

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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Deb wrote :

"It?s great that this digital text is now available in full, and I have added this link to the list of traditional manuscripts on the texts page. Thanks for pointing it out."

For that reason I'm pointed here out. In fact DIAL is known (& thanks to your review) but "people" are ignoring the treasures it contains ...


helena274 wrote :

"I have other Natal Chart for Galileo Galilei (from AstroIReport) ..."

Not a serious info, is it? And what's the source ??


Gjiada wrote :

"Unfortunately she does not give the shelf mark of the manuscript she quoted."

Alas it's the law in astrological milieux, but evidently it's the same manuscript !

"If I understand well the French article, it comes from Galileo too."
"Or the third chart comes from someone else?
"

The three charts in the same manuscript, same handwriting : the two first ones on folio 7 recto, the last one in folio 37 recto.

My hypothesis :

Galileo got an information on his birth time : cerca 22 hours / 22:30. He calculated the two first charts with this info, one of them having been rectified as pointed by Deb.

Later he got some precisions of his birth time, and calculated a third chart, which may be considered as his real birthtime. But the whole manuscript has to be examined (Italian-Latin), and probably new interesting consequences have to be done.

Patrice
Patrice Guinard PhD
C.U.R.A.
The International Astrology Research Center
http://cura.free.fr

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patrice_guinard wrote:
Later he got some precisions of his birth time, and calculated a third chart, which may be considered as his real birthtime. But the whole manuscript has to be examined (Italian-Latin), and probably new interesting consequences have to be done.

Patrice
I'm going to open this old thread because I've just posted in my blog my short consideration about Galileo's chart.
I found another chart, not from Astrologica nonnulla, but there are some considerations on it.

I tend to agree with Patrice and disagree with Deborah. Hope she can forgive me, I almost always agree with her, but this time I believe the 15th February chart is the right one for Galileo.

The link is
http://heavenastrolabe.net/about-galileo-nativity/

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com