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With all respects I really have a problem with "birth chart" logic in mundane astrology. I know most astrologers do it, but you run into the issue that you are asking about. Think about something like the US. We have a Declaration of Independence and a constitution, but is that really the correct logic to use? What about the land that was here before the US? Does that count? Do the planetary rulerships shift every time a government rises and falls? What about places like Bosnia that have changed several times in my parent's lifetimes? What about Turkey that used to be part of Greece?

Personally I like the ingress charts some astrologers use. I know some Medieval Arabic astrologers such as Al-Biruni had problems with birth charts too for the exact same reasons I'm bringing up.

I don't mean to be difficult, but I think this is an important question astrologers should think about.

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I agree that one must be careful, but that doesn't mean there are not times when a mundane "birthchart" is appropriate.

If you are looking for natural disasters etc, then the ingress chart is probably the best place to look. If, however you are looking for political and economic trends then the establishment of the nation state is also relevant.

For Brazil, I use a version of N Campion's BOWH Independence chart 7 sept 1822 Sao Paolo. There are a number of times for this but all late afternoon.

There is also an argument for using a date of Portuguese colonisation- not the first landing but when the nation became defined ( as opposed to just a series of tribal regions). The latter would be located in Salvador. I haven't investigated a date for this.

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the medieval tradition of ingress charts for Mundane delineation is by far the most accessible and supported through history.
As long as you know the year and place of an event you can have the radix or root chart of that event!
in the case of Brasil I would use the Aries Ingress chart for the year that the first president was elected.
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com

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I've always had problems with the idea of national birth charts, too. This is not to say they never work. The problem may be that they do work sometimes. The US Birth date is said to be July 4 1776, but there are no less than three popular times with three different ascendants each with some successes to point to. But as one observer noted, the USA is far more than its independence and that is what July 4 is called: "Independence Day (even though there are problems with that, too).

The UK uses different charts and so do other nations. Does French fate and character change every time there is a new French Republic? I don't think so.

The idea that makes the most sense to me is that there is a base chart and subsequent base charts that represent the unfolding of the base chart. This is good for natal and mundane astrology. The problem occurs when we try to make the national chart the base chart because it is so difficult to pinpoint a national chart. This is not the case for nativities. There is a definite moment and place of birth for a human. What would become the USA was in a state of armed conflict with England since 1775 not 1776. Taking arms against the mother country is at least as strong a declaration of independence as the signing of a document.

Some would argue that the Saturn Jupiter conjunction preceding a major event is a good place to start and it might be. John Frawley did a nice job with using the Jupiter - Saturn conjunction that preceded American independence as a chart for the USA. Morin liked this idea, too, but noted, correctly, that an accurate time for that conjunction was not possible to determine in his day. So he argued for the Aries Ingress as the base chart for every year. Sadly for him, because of the tables he used, he never calculated an accurate Aries Ingress in his life. That doesn't mean the idea is wrong, however.

Morin would use the Ingress as his base chart cast for the relevant location. subsequent cardinal ingresses would be secondary to the Aries Ingress. Using his system the more it resembled the Aries ingress, the more important it would be. In this system eclipses and other such phenomenon as comets, planetary returns etc, would also be secondary to the Aries Ingress chart and not some super cosmic event that trumped it or stood alone.

The beauty of this system is that we can accurately cast an Ingress chart for anywhere in the world without worrying about the time of day this or that event took place or always using noon because we can't do any better. John Dee elected Elizabeth I coronation for noon for a reason, not because it was customary.

Again I'm not arguing that national charts have no relevance or cannot work. They can and do. I'm only suggesting that there may be other ways to judge the fate of nations and if we work with them, we may discover they are more accurate or give us a different perspective.

Tom

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Modern Brazil (ie, the beginning of the political state we call Brazil) may be said to have occured when the Portugese explorer Cabral first set foot upon the land, claiming it for Portugal. This was on the 22nd of April, 1500 at the location now known as Porto Seguro (16 degrees 26 minutes South 39 degrees 05 minutes West) I submit this would be the natal map relating to the modern nation we know as "Brazil".

+But I agree with Tom and other posters, above, regarding the issue of what exactly constitutes the actual fundamental "original" nativity of any place: eg, at the time of Cabral's arrival people had been continuously inhabiting the country we call "Brazil" for 7000 years! And while Cabral was the first European in "Brazil" in 1500, the country was at that time home to as many as 2000 different tribes and nations! So when, really was that country born??

This type of question seems to me to constitute a major problem in mundane astrology and I believe this accounts for the much-too-high ratio of failed-to-accurate predictions which has plagued this branch of the astrological art for many centuries. There must be a more accurate and more reliable way to approach this matter than the various theories and methods which have been tried in the past, and in the present-but what is it??

+Regardless of the above major problem, I think we can still use the Brazil birth date from Cabaral's discovery for determining trends in the modern state of Brazil, because Cabral's discovery was in fact the natal moment initiating the chain of events which resulted in the development of the political, social and economic entity we call "Brazil".

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In addition to Cabral chart, Campion gives a chart for Brazil's independence from Portugal, September 7, 1822 between 4 and 5 PM LMT. Campion gives a chart set for 4:30 PM and claims that many Brazilian astrologers use one set for 4:47 PM LMT. I think this makes the point that national charts present difficulties.
This type of question seems to me to constitute a major problem in mundane astrology and I believe this accounts for the much-too-high ratio of failed-to-accurate predictions which has plagued this branch of the astrological art for many centuries.
Actually the use of national charts is relatively new. British astrologer C.E.O. Carter complained that Ingress charts failed to predict WWII and in his booklet An Introduction to Political Astrology (1951) recommended the use of national charts. This wasn't the first time anyone had recommended their use (Sibly famously produced a chart for the USA in the late 18th or early 19th century), but Carter was a very influential astrologer and the practice took off from there. The problem as I see it, is that too many astrologers, stuck on what they do with nativities, mostly limit their work to transits to the national charts. Sometimes that works; sometimes it doesn't and when it doesn't, they simply switch charts rather than switching methods. Transits are not enough whether they are used with Ingress charts, eclipses, or national charts.

I documented elsewhere that a French astrologer may have accurately predicted WWII using Morinus' methods. I say "may have" because his article wasn't published in a magazine until after WWII, but the magazine publisher admitted the article was submitted prior to WWII and he refused to publish it as it was too depressing. Depressing or not, if true, this man nailed it using classical methods. [See an appendix to James Holden's translation of Astrologia Gallica Book 25 for the full story]

Tom

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When Tom originally posted what he is referring to it was timely because I was suspecting something was wrong with national birth charts.

I remember thinking a while back about Iraq. Now they are interesting on one respect because we actually have a foundation chart for the founding of Baghdad. It was founded based on an astrological election.

However the country itself has housed Sumer, Babylon, the Mongols, the Ottomans, the British, granted independence, had a revolution, and then finally whatever you call our involvement with the government. All in roughly the same space.

What's the birth of Iraq?