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What can be done to get a job or improve income?
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:00 am    Post subject: What can be done to get a job or improve income? Reply with quote

I'm not sure this is an appropriate question for horary. I used to practice it only on "yes" or "no" kind of questions but having found a lot of excellent experts here I thought I'd try. A close friend asked this question. He's always had difficulties with making good income. For the past 20 years he has been working as a carpenter and while he has excellent skills both technical and personal, he has been unable to find a job for the past few months. The economy crisis in the US contributed to that, I'm sure. He has a few ideas about internet business (unrelated to carpentry) which he started working on, while looking for work all over. He wonders what can he do to be able to make better income and to get work? His long term goal is to leave carpentry all together but he needs to develop his new business first. So I guess the question is two fold, it is about the income and about developing his new business.



My friend is Mercury in the last degree of Capricorn in the 5th house. As Mercury is about to change signs, it indicates that he is going to embark onto something new in connection with the 5th house matters. Mercury will enter into Aquarius (so new technologies and innovative ideas come to mind), 5th house indicates involvement with children, romance or creativity. Could I interpret it that his business then may utilize new tehcnologies and be connected wtih children or pleasures, Mercury also rules the 10th house in this chart. I also notice duaiity of the Asc and MC -- two jobs, two professions? That seem to coincide with his wish to develop a new business while still getting income from his old business. The Moon is in detriment in his 4th house, it separated from the sextile with Jupiter and is not applying to any aspect with in the orb (although will sextile Uranus at some point)-- so is VOC (unless we consider the separation aspect with Jupiter still working as it is within 3* orb). That does not seem to favor the querent's intention. No activity is going to take place, or he is unable to develop anything. Saturn in the first house dignified but R also seem to indicate delays and difficulties for the querent. Finally, Venus the ruler of his 2nd house is also in the late degrees of Aquarius on the cusp of the 6th house. Venus is about to change signs and enter Pisces where it is dignified, so can I conclude that he will get some income from work, and it should improve a little, or I shold I give weight to the Moon VOC and Saturn. In any case his question is "what can he do" it is more about the advice, rather than when he will get the job, or his new business will develop. Any other interpretations? This is a complex question for me to judge.


Last edited by elumen on Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello elumen

Have you checked William Lilly's book? He has information on these types of charts. It's a free download so will cost you nothing (except time and effort - it was written in the 1600s!) but it's worth it.

As Deb says, any horary chart you cast retains you as the astrologer and so can only be interpreted by you. You're the authority on your horary charts. That can pose some difficulties when we're studying, because obviously we don't want to take on too much.

I realise you've offered your own view of the chart but - how can I say this tactfully? Smile - you're using the same method which you've said in your other threads isn't working Smile

You're saying that this type of question is new to you, since it's not a 'yes or no' question, so I really do think that applying your previous method isn't going to take you anywhere useful. As students of horary I agree we need to stretch ourselves, but I do think that your best bet is to plug away at the books, and maybe keep this chart on file and come back to it at a later date.

Sometimes it's best to study other people's charts, and to re-study the one's you've already got outcomes for, than to take new questions from friends etc. That applies even more so when there's a lot riding on it, a lot at stake. It's hard to be objective about the charts we cast anyway, but when studying it's even harder because the approach and techniques and so on are still becoming clear in our minds.

Often in any divinatory system (whether horary or something else) we need to decline some questions from people. I know it's hard when there's enthusiasm for learning and when people are asking for help and offering us learning opportunities, but no-one can interpret your charts for you, no matter how much you'd learn from them doing so, asking other people's views can't substitute for studying the texts, and people could spend hours doing it but it still won't do the trick. The reason for that is that you're the 'tool' for your horary chart work, so the more polished you are and your knowledge is the more use to your friends and clients you can be.

Regards

H.
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Handn, thank you for taking time to write your reply. I realize that when I'm asking other people for help or interpretation I run the risk of being lectured at or refused such help. It takes time to answer such questions, and I appreciate the generosity of everyone's input. However, for some reason, lately I attract a lot of lecturing. If you do not have time to help (or feel that I'm asking too many questions), you can ignore my message. I have not said that my old method did not work for me. As a matter of fact, I have been pretty accurate in my readings with a very few exceptions. I think even master astrologers make mistakes, and it is not the reason to stop doing interpretation all together until I acquire more skill. I have learned from other posts on this site more than in a few years already, and I'm going to read more books and literature. I will definitely read more on this form and the chart examples, and texts, and so on. but meanwhile if you have time to offer help please do, otherwise, please skip the lecture.
P.S. I approach this forum as a place of great learning and not trying to get free answers from others (as a matter of fact I would not mind paying for being on a site with such great info). i also hope that it is educational for others as well as me, and that as we share the same interest and passion for astrology, it is engaing and interesting for everyone who participates in this forum. i guess i am only interested in astrology discussions and learning and that's why I came to this forum.
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 693
Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: What can be done to get a job or improve income? Reply with quote

elumen wrote:
He wonders what can he do to be able to make better income and to get work?


I like the symbolism of this chart..L10 mercury, choices, duality.. also the craftsman, the hands.. in capricorn, wood, the 5th, creative. 29 degrees, the end of that profession, but note mercury will move into it's triplicity so the current plans may well provide an improvement, and aquarius seems radical as you noted.
Exulted saturn, another craftsman symbol Rx in 1st.. reconsidering, well, himself. Far enough from the AC not to be a consideration, a warning of the wrong path taken? Just in case, check the wording of the question which seems to be seeking general advice, rather than a judgment on the current "ideas". Look at the part of work and the part of fame (work to be done) for some more ideas. Are they active in the chart?
The void moon..well, maybe it shows the pause in action before the new course is embarked upon, no hasty actions, time to consider all the mercury options? It is appropriate in the context of the question. Separating form pluto, something something to light, his recent questioning of his life path, the 10th house issue. Or if you prefer, from saturn, see above. Inconjunct, not supporting, mars Rx in 11th, income form career, also hopes and wishes, itself disposited by the moon. That deserves some thought.
Yet venus, L2 will soon be in exultation after the change (of sign), bodes well.

Check those arabic parts.

Good luck to him!
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not meaning to lecture, but you might want to set Solar Fire to show Fortuna (and yes, switch the formula for night).

That's often useful in horaries, especially of this sort.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know you don't like to hear lectures, but I have agree with Handn of course that the astrologer is the only person who can read the chart properly, but I do understand wanting other people's perspectives on charts. The problem though is that you never really answered your initial question of how he might improve the situation, you left that to the forum to answer, which is concerning when you are the astrologer.

The "Job while in another Job" post might give you some ideas on how to look at this. You could approach the chart by looking at it from a 7th house perspective, since he wants to change his current situation. The 7th house has Jupiter in Pisces in the 6th, so you could get some ideas about what that could represent for him. His natal chart would likely be most helpful in occupational advice also.

Quote:
Yet venus, L2 will soon be in exultation after the change (of sign), bodes well.


Like Mercury, it also changes signs before the Moon does, which is interesting, and shows that his occupational changes might be beneficial. They are both increasing in dignity, as Mercury is in a nocturnal chart and will enter its triplicity. The Moon is out of orb of any planets, but it will conjunct Mercury at the beginning of the next sign.

The Moon is not well off at all though. It is a nocturnal chart, yet the Moon is below the horizon with the Sun, not to mention in detriment in a sign of Saturn and VOC. Seems like a low point in his goals, and the Moon is only at 8 degrees here, so it may be a while yet before he sees improvement.

Aquarius can relate to technology, so it is interesting that he is trying out something related to the internet. Mercury is in the 5th. Is it web design-related, or something like that?

His 2nd house cusp is in the via combusta though, and Venus ruling 2nd in the 6th isn't usually so great, even with essential strength soon, but I guess he would be working in a field where he services other people. His 11th house being income from work has Mars retro there, which probably indicates chronic losses in that house, since Mars isn't so great in financial situations. Moon also rules that house and is bad off. Does he have poor financial transits, I wonder?
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elumen



Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Posts: 264
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, everyone, it is true I don't like to feel patronized or lectured at Sick
but I can tolerate this for the love of astrology. Very Happy Just kidding. It may come across as if I'm trying to get too much new info and interpretations from other astrologers without fully absorbing the new knowledge myself. When in fact, I am asking b/c it is both fascinating, enjoyable, and fun for me to discuss these matters with others. When I feel that I can offer advice of equal depth as the ones I am receiving, I'll start answering other posts as well. I am overloaded with tremendous amount of responsibilities and this forum is a place of my enjoyment (5th house) and a place where I could consult with peers.
So back to my question. I appreciate everyone's input again. I"ll look into the parts, (POF as Olivia suggested) and other suggestions seem very helpful. I do not know how to answer the question "what can be done" but I feel that the chart indicates positive changes are possible, and his idea about the internet business is a good one. I'm going to read more about the parts, and see if I can add these to this discussion. BTW, I will reload the original chart with POF. I need to look at his natal chart and transits in this regard, but I know that he has not been a very good money maker all his life, in spite of his skills, education and professionalism.
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, it was late last night.
The part of vocation MC + moon - sun
The part of fame AC + jup - sun
These might help with career guidance if you feel that is relevant to the question. Frawley calls the part of fame, the part of work to be done. "Here are my skills, these are my resources, what can I actually do with them right now". Seems to fit the "what can be done" part of the question. So, part of vocation is spiritual, fame is material/practical, if that helps, and to be successful, I think both areas need to work together.
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PallasAthene



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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another nice bit of symbolism, uranus on DC. If 7th is the astrologer, maybe you can provide some uranian inspiration for him, some surprising ideas, to help him gain a new perspective on the issue : )
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elumen wrote:
Thank you, everyone, it is true I don't like to feel patronized or lectured at Sick
but I can tolerate this for the love of astrology. Very Happy Just kidding.


But you shouldn't feel patronised! Smile The great thing about this forum is that if offers a great possibility to communicate with very experienced astrologers who are always willing to share their advices and knowledge but also that you can learn a lot from people who are still learning just like you.

Quote:
It may come across as if I'm trying to get too much new info and interpretations from other astrologers without fully absorbing the new knowledge myself.


In the end- it's always about the experience and synthesis- no book or Astrologer can teach you how to delineate a chart; they can teach you how to approach it, they can give you all the important informations and useful examples but, in the end, you will have to follow your own rules/guts/logic/common sense.......

I have to agree with handn on something very important- you, of course, do provide your opinions under the charts that you posts but, if I'm not wrong, on of hand's lines actually refers to something that you have already mentioned yourself only in another thread and that is- lots of literature and no traditional references. Here I might highly suggest another reading of Christian Astrology as it really is the root. Lilly didn't invent Horary, as a matter of fact, he put together the most important facts picked from the wroks of older (mainly Arabic) masters and his most important theories grounded in his long experience in delineating Horary charts but starting from his work is surely a lot easier than going through dozens of traditional texts. It will help to see as to what he thought of as important in his charts, to go through different aphorisms again, to keep some of his suggestions in mind and, finally- to always (at least in the beginning) try to have one of his example charts cast upon the questions concerning the same or similar matter open in front to you as it will help you keep the right course.Thinking of all sorts of "rules" and"suggestions" picked from various literature can cause enormous confusion in the beginning and, as complicated as our lives and, consequently the charts depicting them, are, the approach should basically be very simple. The approach i say- the story will hardly ever be simple. But a simple and well grounded approach will help you solve the puzzle more easily and will prevent you from getting lost in all sorts of informations.

For this particular example, Lilly's CHAPTER LXXXII Of Government, Office, Dignity, Preferment, or any place of Command or Trust,
whether attainable or not?
would be of great help. Wink


Last edited by aglaya on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm, that section seems to b about a specific job. Would CHAPTER LXXXIV Of the Profession, Magistery or Trade anyone is capable of be more suitable? Mars and venus take on extra significance.
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/lillysrulesformoney.html#B
And by what means obtain it.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PallasAthene wrote:
hmm, that section seems to b about a specific job. Would CHAPTER LXXXIV Of the Profession, Magistery or Trade anyone is capable of be more suitable? Mars and venus take on extra significance.
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/lillysrulesformoney.html#B
And by what means obtain it.


Hi, PallasAthene!

Well, seldom will the examples provided in the traditional (or modern for that matter) literature precisely depict our own questions and give us straightforward instructions on how to read a specific chart- that would be a bit too much to ask as it is impossible to make a list of all the possible combinations of placements and aspects, wouldn't you agree?! Very Happy
We have to use them as guidelines and a form of help but we still have to rely upon our general Astrological (Horary) knowledge and our own skills and experience.

The reason why this Chapter is very important and why going through it before analysing such a chart is valuable is basically explained in its very title THE TENTH HOUSE, and those QUESTIONS properly belonging unto it. This question certainly does belong there! Of course, since the whole idea of having a job is closely connected to the idea of earning the money Smile, we should examine the 2nd house as well. Peeking into Lilly's delineation of the chart cast upon the question concerning the 1st house matters (Lord of Coventry, don't have CA at hand at the moment but it is at the very beginning of the CA II. ) is another great stop- i find that chart and Lilly's delineation to be ever so inspiring and helpful as they cover almost all spheres of the Querent's life.
And, finally, we always have to keep some general rules in mind such as- the shape of the Moon, of the main significators, the position and influence of Malefics and benefics etc.

But we always have to start from somewhere and, in this particular case, the Querent wants to get more informations about his professional life and the possibilities of finding a new (or another) job and that all belongs to the 10th. naturally, we will also have to examine his ruler, the Moon...well, the whole chart actually but we should have a starting point. The Quesited in this case it represented by the 10th, the Querent, as always gets the 1st and we start from there. So, it is a question that "properly belongs to the 10th"! Smile
We don't always know everything and, yes, sometimes we are simply interested in finding out more about our future in general or about the possibilities of finding just about any job- but finding a a job is a form of professional success and, thus, it is the 10th. If we do know what kind of job the Querent is hoping for tha we can narrow down the search and see as to what the main significators have got to say about such an option. but, if we do not know that (or if the Querent doesn't), then we should let the Moon, L1 and L10 to say what they have got to say. We need to blend the informations into a single picture by following some rules, rather than to expect the chart to fit into a frame similar to the one provided in Lill'y examples- his clients are not the same people that we meet with in our practice.

If we do not know as to what kind of job or what job in particular the Querent would enjoy having, than we should let the chart and all the relevant planets to tell us in what direction he or she should turn and what he or she might expect.
Having said that- we should examine the natural significance of the planet that rules the 10th, notice that it is a t a very early degree, that it is peregrine, in Capricorn, inside the 5th etc. We should also note that the Moon is detrimental. That there is an essentially well dignified only retrograde malefic inside the first and that Mercury is applying to it across the sign boundary. The PF inside the 2nd only disposed by a malefic that casts a stressful aspect onto the 2nd, the mutable relevant angles etc.
The Moon is at a rather early degree but it is actually VOC as its next application is to mercury (still very much outside the orb) but that aspect will only be perfect once that both planets are inside Aquarius; a weak Moon, an out of the orb and out of sign application- its movement through the sign of Capricorn and the fact that it will only start applying to the next planet once it reaches the end of the sign should be descriptive of something. its debility should also be telling something.

This Mercury being placed on the 5th cusp could be a strong indication of the Querent's wish to turn a hobby into his profession or it could simply be descriptive of the kind of job he would, could or might choose. Along with the placement of the Moon inside the 4th, it could be also suggesting that the Querent was hoping to start working from home in the future. Or that something described by the 4th house is of his biggest concern at the moment.

Quote:
Mars and venus take on extra significance.


I'm not sure i understand this- are you referring to the above mentioned chapters from CA?
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PallasAthene



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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Algaya
Yes mars and venus significant in that chapter on career advice. Still 10th house obviously.
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
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Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit wrote:
I do understand wanting other people's perspectives on charts.


Well, this is a good way to learn, improve technique and see if there's anything that's been missed.

A little of topic, but I'm finding the use of supervision indispensible.
Deb wrote:
I mean, we are only claiming to have knowledge of the future and the answer to life's problems - its really crazy when you stop to think about it...

Hoary practice is a huge responsibility and I need somewhere to put all the stuff that comes up for me personally. Like, was the reading correct, did I help or damage the querent? Having someone else look over difficult charts and discuss them, is helping to keep me fit to practice. Otherwise, I'd go insane, or just give it up!
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Carol



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elumen wrote:
Quote:
... i also hope that it is educational for others as well as me, and that as we share the same interest and passion for astrology, it is engaing and interesting for everyone who participates in this forum...


elumen, I for one think your questions are great in provoking very interesting/enjoyable, productive, and educational sharing of ideas and expertise (as well as lectures Laughing).

Regarding this particular chart, it seems ironic that it seems to say so much in spite of Saturn Retrograde in the 1st, which supposedly "destroys the question"! But ignoring that warning, right or wrong, it seems one of the most positive things is Mercury in the 5th about to trine that Saturn after it changes signs.

This suggests to me that whatever his new Aquarian/Uranian field is, blending it with his current work in a fun, creative way might be a possibility (Aquarius/Sat. ruling 6th and Cap/Sat ruling 5th), such as advertising/selling his skills or teaching carpentry over the internet, especially with Venus ruling the 9th and 2nd, in highly dignified mutual reception with Saturn, and about to go into exaltation in the 6th (carpentry).

But with the fallen VOC Moon, as well as all the other negative stuff in the income houses (Merc. about to square PofF in the 2nd when it changes signs, as well as oppose Mars peregrine and retrograde in the 11th of income from the job, with Mars coming from and ruling the 8th of fear and anguish), I think the chart also says that his income will probably continue to suffer for a while, no matter what he does, due to the overall bad and scary economic times.
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