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Kepler key for primary directions
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work, Tony. From the article:

Quote:
The method of primary directions is a way to calculate when such relationships become exact. For the technically minded, Mr. Job’s Midheaven meets up with his natal Mars on October 4, 2011 — almost the exact date of his death. (This calculation was made using zodiacal Placidus semi-arc directions, with latitude, and the Kepler key of measurement, aka the key of Brahe or “true day” key. It is a measure of how far the sun travels in right ascension on the day of birth. Without latitude correction the date would be Aug 22, 2011.)


Interesting that this calculation uses the MC and Apple announced Jobs retirement as CEO on Aug 24.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't Mars meant to bump into one of the 5 hylegical places to do the killing? MC isn't one of them, as far as I know Confused

Goran
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margherita



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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Wasn't Mars meant to bump into one of the 5 hylegical places to do the killing? MC isn't one of them, as far as I know Confused

Goran


That's not truly Ptolemaic method, but we can call it another way. Mercury (ruler of the Ascendant) to the 4th house, which is the "end of life".

margherita
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how the Kepler key was applied. I namely got different results using a method which I think is the use of the Kepler/Brahe key. I’m not sure if it should be named Kepler key though because he rather used secondary progressions. I also use the ‘true solar day’ as basis for both progressions and directions, yet with a correction for what one could call the ‘true solar year’. I don’t intend to argue about which one is best, but I wonder why I got different results with the Kepler key. As in the article I used mundane positions, so I included the latitude of the planets and therefore also the Meridian (instead of its intersection with the ecliptic, also known as the MC). This is what I did:

Date/Time: 1955.02.25 03:15:00 UTC (GMT - Delta T), JD = 2435163.635417
Sidereal Time: 13:31:51, Delta T = 31.1 seconds
Geocentric positions

Phase of Moon: 0.089 (0.000=New; 0.250=First 1/4; 0.500=Full; 0.750=Last 1/4)

Planet Longitude Latitude Right Asc. Declination
Sun 05 Psc 44'53" 0°00'01" 22:30:11 - 9°24'20"
Mercury 14 Aqr 21'42"R 2°06'27" 21:04:47 -14°30'31"
Mars 29 Ari 05'26" 0°18'20" 01:47:43 11°26'22"

source: http://ephemeris.com/ephemeris.php

Right Ascension of Meridian is equal to local Sidereal Time = 5h22m12s (from the link to the databank)


From the tables of equation of time you can get the true solar day around the 25th of February.
http://geoastro.de/Divers/Sonnenuhr/eot.html
http://freepages.pavilion.net/users/aghelyar/sundat.htm
24h00m09s

In this time the Sun moves 0°56’ = 0.95° in R.A. Although I personally make a correction for the proportions of a tropical year, I assume that the most commonly used formula for this type of key is 365.2422/360.95 = 1.0118914

It seems that a backwards motion of the Meridian was used for the conjunction of Mars with the Meridian. The use of latitude makes it easier because the R.A. positions are then the same as in the above list of ephemeris.com. Another ease is that since the Meridian is involved in a mundane way with the latitude of the planets involved, there can be no misunderstanding because of the house systems and their intermediate cusps.

I didn’t use the proper motion of the planets but the natal positions to which the Meridian was directed. However the difference wouldn’t exceed more than a few months.

RA Meridian – RA Mars = 5h22m12s – 01h47m43s = 3h34m29s, converted to degrees = 53.6208333. After application of key I got 54.2584601 or 54 years and ca. 3 months which corresponds with end of May 2009.

RA Mercury +12h(opposition) - RA Meridian = 9h04m47s – 5h22m12s = 3h42m35s, converted to degrees = 55.6458333. This already is the same as the Ptolemy key so no further key application, 55 years and ca. 8 months which corresponds with end of October 2010.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Morinus:

I get very similar results with:

Placidus- semiarc.
Zodiacal Directions with
Latitude of the Promissor.
Key:Dynamic.True solar equatorial arc(Birthday)

Mars conj MC Zod.conv 2011.09.05
and 2011.10.18 with latitude of the signifactor.


There is a Zodiacal parallel of MC with Mars operating from 2010.11.11 and in Jan 2011 Steve Jobs took long leave.

Mars is the 8th lord in 8th and by direction opposing the MC.

PD
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Ed F



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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using Svarogich's version of mundane directions (dynamic key, secondary motion taken into account), and an adjusted birth time of 19:13:18, directed Mercury anti-culminating gives a transit date of 2 Nov 11. Additionally there are a lot of mundane parallels and contra-parallels (as there are in the natal).

So, not too different.

- Ed
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed F wrote:
Using Svarogich's version of mundane directions (dynamic key, secondary motion taken into account), and an adjusted birth time of 19:13:18, directed Mercury anti-culminating gives a transit date of 2 Nov 11. Additionally there are a lot of mundane parallels and contra-parallels (as there are in the natal).

So, not too different.

- Ed


I don't think to have an exact date is so important.
That's because directions should be inserted in wider scheme.

I believe Petr explained better than me in last week thread about "probability and prognostication"
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6373&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

So I prefer to have a less precise date, but to be more traditional.

margherita
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Ed F



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Hermes comment on the use of the time lord method to set planetary roles on that thread was interesting. So, if anyone is familiar with the method, what would the roles of Mercury and Mars be at the time of Jobs' death?

I agree about the precision issue with directions, and tend to think they are also indicative of periods (or at least some of them are).

- Ed
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Eddy



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
I don't think to have an exact date is so important.
That's because directions should be inserted in wider scheme.


I agree with you, although I got for MC directed to Mercury, without latitude, an almost exact hit using Kepler key in combination with the use of the correction for the irregularity of the solar year. A birthtime of 23 seconds later would make it exact. But I rather would look at secondary progressions and transits for that.

However, with secondary progressions for the date of death I get Sun in 1°49' Taurus, Moon 4°29' Ta and Mercury 1°19' Ta, This is quite interesting because this stellium is close to natal Mars. The aspects aren't exact but the Moon was exact on Mars some 5 months before. Note that he died of pancreas cancer and this was diagnosed 7 years ago. Two years ago he had an operation, which makes the progressed Sun fit.

The directed Ascendant doesn’t reveal a lot for this year, but 7 years ago it was in 2° Scorpio (the other sign ruled by Mars) and some years after the direction to opposition natal Mars. Perhaps a bit wide for most but still close enough to demarcate a period. Transits don't reveal much, unless all these squares to Natal Venus are indicators.

If the MC is directed backwards as was done with Mars, is that also possible in traditional converse directions?
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:

If the MC is directed backwards as was done with Mars, is that also possible in traditional converse directions?


As Goran- it seems to me it was him- said MC has no meaning about death.

For me I use significators only when I want to judge about related matters, MC for marriage and career.

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
If the MC is directed backwards as was done with Mars, is that also possible in traditional converse directions?

In the traditional definition, directing the MC by converse motion (something not everyone would countenance) would mean moving the zodiacal degree which was on the MC in the radix, with the primary motion, to some other point which was considered fixed (such as a planet or an aspect point).
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Eddy



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Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
[As Goran- it seems to me it was him- said MC has no meaning about death.

For me I use significators only when I want to judge about related matters, MC for marriage and career.
Perhaps my view is too modern for this forum section but I think that the MC is just like a magnifying glass bringing to the foreground what is behind him (in this case Mars) and not specifically career or any characteristic of itself (rather a kind of 'passive'/'receiving' point). Probably this view is only done in tradition when in mundo positions are used.

Martin Gansten wrote:
In the traditional definition, directing the MC by converse motion (something not everyone would countenance) would mean moving the zodiacal degree which was on the MC in the radix, with the primary motion, to some other point which was considered fixed (such as a planet or an aspect point).

Thanks, I think this explains my difference of the first calculations. I have the impression that the converse motion used the ecliptical position of the MC, even when moved to the position of Mars with latitude, where I assumed that the Meridian had to be used.
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Hareton



Joined: 13 Feb 2012
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Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should I calculate Part of Fortune in nativity when doing directions by right or oblique ascension of ASC, Moon and Sun? Cover of this book says oblique:

http://www.amazon.com/Primary-Directions-Sepharial/dp/1933303174
"Then, the resolution of problems unique to Primaries: The proper method to calculate the Part of Fortune (Oblique Ascension/Descension, rather than simple zodiacal longitudes), various unique challenges with primary directions and the moon, and the true way to calculate directions to house cusps, along with some novel shortcuts."
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Hareton



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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hareton wrote:
Should I calculate Part of Fortune in nativity when doing directions by right or oblique ascension of ASC, Moon and Sun? Cover of this book says oblique:

http://www.amazon.com/Primary-Directions-Sepharial/dp/1933303174
"Then, the resolution of problems unique to Primaries: The proper method to calculate the Part of Fortune (Oblique Ascension/Descension, rather than simple zodiacal longitudes), various unique challenges with primary directions and the moon, and the true way to calculate directions to house cusps, along with some novel shortcuts."
I'm sorry, but I didn't make myself clear. I obviously meant POF calculated with zodiacal degrees of ASC, Moon and Sun vs POF calculated by oblique ascentions of ASC, Moon and Sun. Which one should I use in primary directions.
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