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Kepler key for primary directions
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Martin

Martin Gansten wrote:

Actually, Ptolemy says that this is one consideration when the apheta/hyleg is in that quadrant; but there is also still the 'normal' method of directing the apheta to the malefics.


I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

I tried even with Placidus software but I cannot guess which could be,

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astroart wrote:
But some of Arabic astrologers(Haly Abenragel for example) do not comply with this rule and therefore I think it is possible to move the Moon in converse direction to the square of Saturn.

Apart from one isolated instance in Gaurico (which I believe is simply a miscalculation), I am not aware of any astrologer prior to the 19th century directing against the primary motion/against time. To ar-Rijal (Abenragel) and others of his time, 'converse' meant something entirely different.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gjiada wrote:
I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

No, I almost never bother finding directions for birth times like 23:00, especially not if they are from the early 20th century -- not unless I am being paid for rectification work. Wink
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Martine



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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Astroart

Quote:
I have to do a clarification about the direction.I take and move the Moon(5 degrees Libra) to the sinister square of Saturn(9 degrees in Sagitarius) in counterclockwise direction(converse).


With Janus, using the same options as you do, I find :

- Moon converse to sinister square Saturn 1 Nov 1979

But in this case the software takes Moon as promittor.

Regards
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Martine



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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote :

Quote:
I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

I tried even with Placidus software but I cannot guess which could be,


But is this direction necessary ? I notice that it happened in the sixties and it did not kill the native then.

Even if the time 23:00 looks very doubtful, it can still be close. There is this direction I mentioned in the beginning :

- dexter square Mars direct Part of Hyleg 20 Oct 1979 (Zodiacal Placidus semi-arc with Kepler key).

The Part of Hyleg is calculated this way by Janus : ASC + Moon - SAN. SAN is prenatal syzygy at 22°59' Cancer. The result is 8°42' Gemini, with a tight square from Saturn at 9°11' Virgo. Saturn is lord of 12th, the house of secret ennemies.

Unfortunately, I can't attempt a rectification as I have no information about his private life and no precise dates.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martine wrote:


But is this direction necessary ? I notice that it happened in the sixties and it did not kill the native then. .


It was not me that mentioned it. No, evidently it is not necessary, because the native was healthy at that time.

I cannot imagine which direction we can consider. I tried even with Placidus. In CieloeTerra in fact when they are studying an event already occurred, they calculate directions for the date of the event.

This is the chart I had for death date, Placidean under the pole directions, Placidus key,



the only thing I can see it's directed Mars sextile to natal Mars, if somebody can see something else the picture is here,
margherita
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astroart



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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Apart from one isolated instance in Gaurico (which I believe is simply a miscalculation), I am not aware of any astrologer prior to the 19th century directing against the primary motion/against time. To ar-Rijal (Abenragel) and others of his time, 'converse' meant something entirely different.


Here I will post one very interesting passage from Haly Abenragel(Haly Abenragel, De iudiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, p.158):

"According to Ptolemy and those who agree with him when we want to move a Hyleg with Tasyir and if he is located in VIII and IX houses, then the Tasyir is against the order of signs . But other sages disagree and [they] do it [Tasyir] in direct way."
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good morning

astroart wrote:


"According to Ptolemy and those who agree with him when we want to move a Hyleg with Tasyir and if he is located in VIII and IX houses, then the Tasyir is against the order of signs . But other sages disagree and [they] do it [Tasyir] in direct way."


I believe the reason is nobody know how they should direct. So "when in doubt abstain."
Haly says the same in his comment to Tetrabiblos, (I've a partial translation)-

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astroart wrote:
Here I will post one very interesting passage from Haly Abenragel(Haly Abenragel, De iudiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, p.158):

"According to Ptolemy and those who agree with him when we want to move a Hyleg with Tasyir and if he is located in VIII and IX houses, then the Tasyir is against the order of signs . But other sages disagree and [they] do it [Tasyir] in direct way."

Yes, the terms 'converse' and 'against the order of the signs' go a long way back, all the way to Ptolemy; but if you read the texts carefully you will see that they meant something very different than they do today. The distinction related to the relative positions of significator and promissor in the zodiac -- whether the promissor was ahead of the significator or behind it -- but the directing was always done with the primary motion. Ar-Rijal is no exception to this rule.
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Martine



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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

I am trying to understand this direction, not from a historical, but from a logical point of view.

You cannot move the Moon at 5° Libra to the square of Saturn at 9° Sagittarius, because this movement goes against the primary motion.

And you cannot move the square of Saturn at 9° Sagittarius to the Moon at 5° Libra, because the 9° Sagittarius is an aspect point. When the 9° Sagittarius point is brought by the primary motion to the conjunction of the natal Moon, it is no longer square to the natal Saturn, so it has no meaning.

You can move a planet but not an aspect point. Is that correct ?

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margherita



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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martine wrote:

And you cannot move the square of Saturn at 9° Sagittarius to the Moon at 5° Libra, because the 9° Sagittarius is an aspect point.


no, no to me this should be correct, promissor (Saturn square) is going to significator of life, Moon according the daily motion.

It's not correct just because Boulin was alive and kicking in 1960s Smile

at least this is what i understood,
margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martine wrote:
I am trying to understand this direction, not from a historical, but from a logical point of view.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, though. Wink A historical understanding often helps bring out the logic of a technique.

Quote:
You cannot move the Moon at 5° Libra to the square of Saturn at 9° Sagittarius, because this movement goes against the primary motion.

Correct (or at least that is what astrologers prior to c. 1850 would have said).

Quote:
And you cannot move the square of Saturn at 9° Sagittarius to the Moon at 5° Libra, because the 9° Sagittarius is an aspect point. When the 9° Sagittarius point is brought by the primary motion to the conjunction of the natal Moon, it is no longer square to the natal Saturn, so it has no meaning.

Certainly you can move an aspect point. Even if you want to take secondary (zodiacal) motion into consideration, how much does Saturn move in a few hours?
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Martine



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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Margherita and Martin for this clarification.

Regards
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astroart



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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is this direction I mentioned in the beginning :

- dexter square Mars direct Part of Hyleg 20 Oct 1979 (Zodiacal Placidus semi-arc with Kepler key).



I think that we have a problem with the direction of Pars of Hyleg. The root of the problem lies in this passage(Haly Abenragel, De iudiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, same p.158):


"Know that the Tasyir of the Hyleg and planets is in the order of the signs from the beginning to the end except the pars and the retrograde planets.Their Tasyir is against of the order of signs, starting from the end of the sign and finishing to his beginning."
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Martine



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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Astroart

You wrote
Quote:
I think that we have a problem with the direction of Pars of Hyleg. The root of the problem lies in this passage(Haly Abenragel, De iudiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, same p.158):


"Know that the Tasyir of the Hyleg and planets is in the order of the signs from the beginning to the end except the pars and the retrograde planets.Their Tasyir is against of the order of signs, starting from the end of the sign and finishing to his beginning."


I don't know the meaning of the word "Tasyir".

The calculation of the part of hyleg made by Janus is the most usual calculation. It is also traditional. I know that some astrologers calculate the parts using the primary motion, but I don't.

It seems to me that there is evidence to show that 1°) the birth hour given is not very different from the true one and 2°) the directions to the part of hyleg, calculated as usual, are important in this chart.For instance, looking the chart given by Margherita, showing the natal positions and the directions for the date of death, I find :

- Directed Neptune at 29°09 Libra falls on the natal 8th cusp Alchabitius at 29°02 Libra. This tends to confirme the birth time, as Neptune shows the conditions of death.

- Directed Saturn falls at 8°32 Sagittarius, opposite the natal part of hyleg at 8°42 Gemini.

Using two different systems of directions, we find therefore two deadly directions to the same part of hyleg : the square of Mars I mentioned before, with one method, and an opposition of Saturn with the other. This seems too much for just a coincidence.

There are different ways to get to the truth and I suppose Haly Abenragel's is one of them. But I don't understand it. So I am keeping to the methods I know, especially as they seem to work satisfactorily. But it is always interesting, of course, to hear about other techniques.

Regards
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