31
Hello Martin
Martin Gansten wrote: Actually, Ptolemy says that this is one consideration when the apheta/hyleg is in that quadrant; but there is also still the 'normal' method of directing the apheta to the malefics.
I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

I tried even with Placidus software but I cannot guess which could be,

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

32
astroart wrote:But some of Arabic astrologers(Haly Abenragel for example) do not comply with this rule and therefore I think it is possible to move the Moon in converse direction to the square of Saturn.
Apart from one isolated instance in Gaurico (which I believe is simply a miscalculation), I am not aware of any astrologer prior to the 19th century directing against the primary motion/against time. To ar-Rijal (Abenragel) and others of his time, 'converse' meant something entirely different.

33
Gjiada wrote:I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?
No, I almost never bother finding directions for birth times like 23:00, especially not if they are from the early 20th century -- not unless I am being paid for rectification work. ;)

34
Hi Astroart
I have to do a clarification about the direction.I take and move the Moon(5 degrees Libra) to the sinister square of Saturn(9 degrees in Sagitarius) in counterclockwise direction(converse).
With Janus, using the same options as you do, I find :

- Moon converse to sinister square Saturn 1 Nov 1979

But in this case the software takes Moon as promittor.

Regards
Martine

35
Margherita wrote :
I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

I tried even with Placidus software but I cannot guess which could be,
But is this direction necessary ? I notice that it happened in the sixties and it did not kill the native then.

Even if the time 23:00 looks very doubtful, it can still be close. There is this direction I mentioned in the beginning :

- dexter square Mars direct Part of Hyleg 20 Oct 1979 (Zodiacal Placidus semi-arc with Kepler key).

The Part of Hyleg is calculated this way by Janus : ASC + Moon - SAN. SAN is prenatal syzygy at 22?59' Cancer. The result is 8?42' Gemini, with a tight square from Saturn at 9?11' Virgo. Saturn is lord of 12th, the house of secret ennemies.

Unfortunately, I can't attempt a rectification as I have no information about his private life and no precise dates.
Martine

36
Martine wrote:
But is this direction necessary ? I notice that it happened in the sixties and it did not kill the native then. .
It was not me that mentioned it. No, evidently it is not necessary, because the native was healthy at that time.

I cannot imagine which direction we can consider. I tried even with Placidus. In CieloeTerra in fact when they are studying an event already occurred, they calculate directions for the date of the event.

This is the chart I had for death date, Placidean under the pole directions, Placidus key,
Image


the only thing I can see it's directed Mars sextile to natal Mars, if somebody can see something else the picture is here,
margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

37
Apart from one isolated instance in Gaurico (which I believe is simply a miscalculation), I am not aware of any astrologer prior to the 19th century directing against the primary motion/against time. To ar-Rijal (Abenragel) and others of his time, 'converse' meant something entirely different.
Here I will post one very interesting passage from Haly Abenragel(Haly Abenragel, De iudiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, p.158):

"According to Ptolemy and those who agree with him when we want to move a Hyleg with Tasyir and if he is located in VIII and IX houses, then the Tasyir is against the order of signs . But other sages disagree and [they] do it [Tasyir] in direct way."
http://www.astro-art.com/

38
Good morning
astroart wrote:
"According to Ptolemy and those who agree with him when we want to move a Hyleg with Tasyir and if he is located in VIII and IX houses, then the Tasyir is against the order of signs . But other sages disagree and [they] do it [Tasyir] in direct way."
I believe the reason is nobody know how they should direct. So "when in doubt abstain."
Haly says the same in his comment to Tetrabiblos, (I've a partial translation)-

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

39
astroart wrote:Here I will post one very interesting passage from Haly Abenragel(Haly Abenragel, De iudiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, p.158):

"According to Ptolemy and those who agree with him when we want to move a Hyleg with Tasyir and if he is located in VIII and IX houses, then the Tasyir is against the order of signs . But other sages disagree and [they] do it [Tasyir] in direct way."
Yes, the terms 'converse' and 'against the order of the signs' go a long way back, all the way to Ptolemy; but if you read the texts carefully you will see that they meant something very different than they do today. The distinction related to the relative positions of significator and promissor in the zodiac -- whether the promissor was ahead of the significator or behind it -- but the directing was always done with the primary motion. Ar-Rijal is no exception to this rule.

40
Hello

I am trying to understand this direction, not from a historical, but from a logical point of view.

You cannot move the Moon at 5? Libra to the square of Saturn at 9? Sagittarius, because this movement goes against the primary motion.

And you cannot move the square of Saturn at 9? Sagittarius to the Moon at 5? Libra, because the 9? Sagittarius is an aspect point. When the 9? Sagittarius point is brought by the primary motion to the conjunction of the natal Moon, it is no longer square to the natal Saturn, so it has no meaning.

You can move a planet but not an aspect point. Is that correct ?

Regards
Martine

41
Martine wrote: And you cannot move the square of Saturn at 9? Sagittarius to the Moon at 5? Libra, because the 9? Sagittarius is an aspect point.
no, no to me this should be correct, promissor (Saturn square) is going to significator of life, Moon according the daily motion.

It's not correct just because Boulin was alive and kicking in 1960s :)

at least this is what i understood,
margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

42
Martine wrote:I am trying to understand this direction, not from a historical, but from a logical point of view.
The two aren't mutually exclusive, though. ;) A historical understanding often helps bring out the logic of a technique.
You cannot move the Moon at 5? Libra to the square of Saturn at 9? Sagittarius, because this movement goes against the primary motion.
Correct (or at least that is what astrologers prior to c. 1850 would have said).
And you cannot move the square of Saturn at 9? Sagittarius to the Moon at 5? Libra, because the 9? Sagittarius is an aspect point. When the 9? Sagittarius point is brought by the primary motion to the conjunction of the natal Moon, it is no longer square to the natal Saturn, so it has no meaning.

Certainly you can move an aspect point. Even if you want to take secondary (zodiacal) motion into consideration, how much does Saturn move in a few hours?