16 by Martine Hi Eddy This is by coincidence exactly the same as the Ptolemy key of 1?RA = 1 year. I don't know what the software was 'thinking' but I'd believe that in this case the results should be the same. I wonder why the Janus program gives one month difference. In Janus' help it says for Kepler's key : Birthday arc. How far the Sun travels in RA from the birthday to one day later. I calculated the corresponding RA with Janus and found 119?54'56'' and 120?54'50''. There is a difference of 4 seconds of arc. This explains, I think, the difference of 1 month. Regards Martine Quote Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:23 pm
17 by Eddy Martine wrote:Hi Eddy This is by coincidence exactly the same as the Ptolemy key of 1?RA = 1 year. I don't know what the software was 'thinking' but I'd believe that in this case the results should be the same. I wonder why the Janus program gives one month difference. In Janus' help it says for Kepler's key : Birthday arc. How far the Sun travels in RA from the birthday to one day later. I calculated the corresponding RA with Janus and found 119?54'56'' and 120?54'50''. There is a difference of 4 seconds of arc. This explains, I think, the difference of 1 month. Regards Hi Martine, I see. I also just looked at the swisseph test page http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm which give similar results as the www.ephemeris.com calculator but also with numbers behind the decimal point. Like with ephemeris.com the swisseph differences between the birthday and one day later is also smaller than those of Janus. Maybe different planetary theories of calculation are used. The differences between these planetary theories are very small and not alarming. It simply illustrates that a technique like primary directions is like a microscope that enlarges the elapsed time with (averagely) 360 * 365.25 = 131490 times. Quote Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:54 pm
18 by Martine Hi Eddy What about the Moon Mars conjunction in the solar return preceding his death? Moon is close to natal IC and square to the natal Asc/Desc axis. According to which house system one uses the conjunction is either in XI (abandoned by friends?) or in XII (secret political enemies?). But in most systems around cusp XII. The mysterious circumstances and possible death by barbiturates (Wikipedia) could be signified by Neptune opposite Mars in this return. Indeed difficult, it could be leading to either self-destruction in the form of suicide or to murder. I see it this way. The Moon is hyleg. Mars, lord of 8th and conjunct the 8th cup in the natal chart is anaereta. The conjunction Moon-Mars on the 12th cup in the solar return does show the death. At the time of death, 29th October 1979, the profected planets and cusps are about +8? from their natal places. Mars is then the lord of year. Profected Mars falls exactly on the natal North Node in 8th. I just discovered that, at the place of the Ascendant, 26?11' Pisces, Mars is in triplicity, term (Egyptian) and face. Therefore, Mars is the Ascendant's almuten. This is favorable to the suicide thesis. But of course, it is difficult to be sure. Regards Martine Quote Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:44 pm
19 by Martine Hello Astroart You wrote : If the birth time is 5 minutes earlier or 22:55 and if we use Placidus zodiacal primary directions with latitide of aspects according to Blanchinus - Gaurico - Argoli with Naibod key- the result will be: on 30th October 1979 -converse direction of Moon to square of Saturn. Moon is in 7th house in night birth-hyleg Saturn is in 6th house, ruler of 12th house-anaereta In this primary direction, the Moon is the promittor and Saturn is the significator, therefore the Moon acts on Saturn and not the reverse. Saturn is one of the lords of the 8th Alchabitius, in top of being lord of 12th in 6th, so it is a significator of death. The Moon is in natal 7th and therefore can represent open ennemies according to Morin. This direction can mean that the ennemies had an influence on the native's death around that date. But it does not say that they actually killed him, because the significators of life are not involved. The Moon is hyleg, but it cannot function as a significator and a promittor at the same time. Regards Martine Quote Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:01 pm
Robert Boulin: Suicide or Murder? Cosmic testimony 20 by dr. farr 1) Data & Constructions used in this Analysis: -birth: Tuesday July 20th, 1920 @ Villandraut, France -death (Wikipedia) disappeared October 29, 1979; age at death 59 yrs 3 months; body found in shallow pond (in small forest) October 30, 1979; alleged cause of death: drowning; injuries noted at time: none except bruises to face, broken cheekbone; empty bottle of barbiturates found nearby in car; official classification of death: suicide -chart construction: Astrodienst: Natal chart, tropical, web default style -House system: Whole Sign Houses (Note: all WSH cusps = 0:0 degrees; the equivalent of the "cusp" is the sensitive point of each sign as determined from the Asc degree; in this analysis the sensitive degree ("cusp") for all houses is 26:11 (based upon the Asc in this natal chart which is 26Pisces11)-the Parts computed in this analysis which use "cusps" in their formulas (ie, the Part of Death and the Part of Suicide) each utilize the sensitive degree (26:11) as the "cusp" in their calculation; any other house system, if applied to the calculation of the Part of Death or the Part of Suicide, will yield results (positions of the parts in signs) differing from those found in this analysis. 2) Objectives of this Analysis There is no attempt here to analyze the character or general life events of the subject; my analysis of the data is retrospective and aimed at 2 objectives: a) to see if, in the natal chart, there are any significant indicators of predisposition to a violent death; b) to see if cosmic testimony-taken from progression indications and Pauline (NOT Ptolemaic!) time profections of the natal chart-tend to support either the suicide explanation or the murder hypothesis in this case . No primary directions, solar or lunar returns or transit indications have been considered in this analysis; all indications are derived solely from the natal chart data subjected to 1yr=1 degree progressions of natal elements, and Pauline yr-month-day profections based upon the Asc/1st house sign (Pisces) 3) Sign Positions (of most important elements for this analysis) by Whole Sign House System 1st house = Pisces 2nd house = Aries 4th house = Gemini 5th house = Cancer 6th house = Leo 7th house = Virgo 9th house = Scorpio 12th house = Aquarius 4) Exact Calculations of Parts used in this Analysis -Pars Hyleg = 8Gemini44; planetary significator = Mercury Asc (26Pisces11) + Moon (5Libra30) - syzygy ante nativitatem (New Moon July 15, 1920 = 22Cancer57) -Part of Death = 16Aries52; planetary significator = Mars (Death Indicator) Asc (26Pisces11) + 8th (26Libra11) - Moon (5Libra30) -Most Dangerous/Perilous Year = 19Aquarius Asc(26Pisces11) + Ruler of 8th (Venus; 2Leo32) - Saturn (9Virgo11) -Part of Murder = 12Aquarius39; planetary significator = Saturn (Murder Indicator) Asc(26Pisces11) + Ruler of Asc (Jupiter 21Leo58) - Moon (5Libra30) {night formula} -Part of Suicide = 21Virgo58 Asc(26Pisces11) + Jupiter (21Leo58) - 12th (26Aquarius11) Analysis: Part 1 I found no really special indications of possibilities of violent death in the natal positions until I checked the fixed stars: +at the Pars Hyleg I found Aldebaran within 4 MINUTES of exact conjunction (based upon ecliptic long): indications here (from Robson) give a quite precise outline of the subject's life in general: a prominent martial influence, honor, intelligence, courage, responsible position, public honors, gain of wealth and power through others, BUT its benefits seldom prove lasting and there is ALSO A DANGER OF VIOLENCE...; So here I found my first indication of significant potential for perhaps a violent death; +at the nMercury-the significator of the Pars Hyleg-I found South Ascellus within 36 Minutes of exact conjuction; South Ascellus is partially of the nature of Mars (also of the Sun) and gives care, responsibility, charitable nature, martial preferment, but also danger of slander from low or vulgar persons (interesting in light of the scandal close to the time of Boulin's death), disgrace, imprisonment and DANGER OF VIOLENT DEATH (also danger of shooting, blows, stabs) and we also find "murderer OR MURDERED " listed as potential influences (objection: this last entry is given for Ascellus with the SUN, and it is actually with Mercury! I respond that nMercury is in Leo, ruled by the Sun. that it is in the 1st decanate of Leo, so a double Leo, and the nMercury is only barely beyond 10 degrees from the nSun-still "under the sunbeams"-so I hold that the Ascellus-with-Sun indications do in fact apply to this chart) -With this finding of South Ascellus conjunct the significator of the nPars Hyleg I discovered my second very significant potential for violent death-this time perhaps even murder!-in the natal chart. Analysis Part 2 So now I had definite cosmic testimony for the potential of violent death in Boulin's birth chart. My first objective had been obtained in the positive. Now, what would simple symbolic progressions of various natal elements reveal relative to violent death, suicide or murder? In all progressions I used Boulin's age at time of death (59 years) as the number of degrees I would advance the various elements of the natal chart: a) @ 59 yrs the nPars Hyleg (with its Aldebaran qualities) progresses to near exact conjunction with the nMercury (significator of the Pars Hyleg) and its South Ascellus qualities; thus at the year of Boulin's death we have a very explosive mixture (by progression) of Aldebaran + South Ascellus (the violent death quality-especially since these stars involve the Part of the Giver of Life itself {Pars Hyleg}-becomes greatly enhanced by this progression into the 59th year-also, with these 2 stars now conjoined by progression-there is no hint of SELF destruction, but strong indications-especially from the South Ascellus-of danger of violent acts by others against the subject-and MURDER is specifically mentioned with the South Ascellus) In my mind, the above testimony scores a point for the murder hypothesis over the suicide explanation. b) @ 59 yrs nSaturn (the Murder Indicator; also significator of the Most Dangerous/Perilous year) progresses into 8Scorpio11; this is within 4 degrees of exact conjunction with nMars (and Mars is the Death Indicator); thus at 59 years of age the Murder Indicator (Saturn) conjoins by progression with the Death Indicator (Mars); furthermore the nMars posited in the first decanate of Scorpio points to the actual time of year when Boulin died-he died within the first 10 days (first decanate) of Scorpio (October 29/30), the precise part of Scorpio in which the Death Indicator (Mars) is natally placed. Now at 59 years of age the Suicide Indicator, Mercury (ruler of Virgo in which the Part of Suicide is natally posited) has progressed only into early Libra-yes, this is into the 8th house and could have to do with death, but compared to having the Murder Indicator (Saturn) progress to near conjunction with the Death Indicator (Mars) in the first decanate of Scorpio (corresponding to the actual dates of the month of the year when Boulin died) I must evaluate this testimony as supporting a greater likelihood of murder over suicide. Not done yet-have a lot more to go, but will post a little later... Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:53 am
21 by Martin Gansten Martine wrote:on 30th October 1979 -converse direction of Moon to square of Saturn. In this primary direction, the Moon is the promittor and Saturn is the significator, therefore the Moon acts on Saturn and not the reverse. Please note that traditionally, a significator is a planet or point which signifies a matter, and a promissor/promittor is a planet or aspect which affects the matter, regardless of which is moving towards which. In a direction between a planet and an aspect point, the aspect point can only be the promissor, making the planet the significator. When the significator is moved with the primary motion, the direction is (again traditionally) called converse. (I haven't looked at the chart under discussion, so I am not sure whether Astroart meant 'converse' in this traditional sense or in the modern sense of 'against the primary motion'.) Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:28 am
Robert Boulin: Suicide or Murder? Cosmic Testimony Part 2 22 by dr. farr Analysis 2 (cont'd) Objection to the last scoring for the murder hypothesis: if you progress the Part of Suicide (n21Virgo58) by the 59 years, it too goes into Scorpio, the sign ruling the period of time of his 59th year when Boulin died! My response to this objection is that the progressed Part of Suicide (to 20Scorpio) is too far from the Death Indicator (Mars) to form any real connection with it, whereas the Murder Indicator (Saturn) by progression is less than 4 degrees from the nMars Death indicator; furthermore, the progressed Part of Suicide is placed at the beginning of the 3rd decanate of Scorpio which would coincide with the last 10 days of that sign's time, which would be in mid November of 1979: whereas the progressed Murder Indicator (Saturn) is placed in the first decanate of Scorpio, coinciding with the first 10 days of that sign (October 24-November 2, 1979) during which time the death actually occured (in 1979 Sun entered Scorpio on October 24th; on October 29th, 1979 the Sun was within 36 MINUTES of perfect conjuction with nMars degree-the Death Indicator) +Progressing the Part of Murder by 59 years places it at 11Aries39, 5 degrees 13 minutes from the nPart of Death (16Aries52); for me this is too far away to constitute a conjuction (but for others it would); to me, though it shows movement of the Part of Murder toward the Part of Death (we find no such movement or nearness to the Part of Death by the Part of Suicide or its significator) +Death Indicator (Mars) is natally posited in early Scorpio; Scorpio is a fixed water sign; standing water, a pond or a shallow lake are analogous to fixed water (unlike mutable Pisces, related to streams, rivers, big lakes with lots of currents; also unlike cardinal Cancer, with rapid flowing water, rains, the sea); Boulin was found "drowned" in a pond (or shallow lake; at its greatest depth the water was only 19 inches deep-that's less than a full bathtub's depth of water); Scorpio also can signify hidden things, secrets, secret or (perhaps) evil doings; it also has relation with poisons/toxins to a considerable extent (an empty bottle of barbiturates was found in Boulin's car parked close by the death scene) +Aries is the sign in which the Part of Death is posited in the natal chart; there is of course a degree of violence associated with Aries (just as there is with Scorpio)-of interest is the fact that the only injuries to Boulin's body were to his head and face (the face was battered and bruised; a cheekbone broken) Aries is affinitive to the head and face-a significant indication realizing that the natal Part of Death is posited in this sign. +nPluto is located at 7Cancer49, the double malefic Dragon's Tail natally at 11Taurus41 (mean south node position); Pluto has affinities with (among other things) hidden matters, conspiracies, criminal or underworld matters or people, secret or criminal matters involving violence (even murder); at 59 yrs the nDragon's Tail progresses to 10Cancer41, within 3 degrees of nPluto (essentially the conjection of progressed Dragon's Tail with nPluto-a quite malefic, threatening activation of the Plutonic affinities) +In progressing nPluto by 59 years (ie, 59 degrees) it goes into 6Virgo49: yes, this is in the same sign as the nPart of Suicide, but progressed Pluto is over 15 degrees distant from that natal position; however, this progressed Pluto is less than 3 degrees from the nSaturn, the Murder Indicator (Saturn natal position @ 9Virgo11); thus we have, in Boulin's 59th year a close (progressed) conjuction between Pluto (and the affinities/influences mentioned above) and the Murder Indicator (Saturn); I must give another point to the murder hypothesis (both Pluto and the 12th House in which the Part of Murder is natally posited, have plots and secret enemies, as well as "finality", as notable affinities) Analysis 3: Pauline Time Profection Testimony In determining the "rulership" (by sign) of a given year (and month and day) by the Pauline method (Paulus Alexandriacus), the sign of the Asc (of birth or event) is always used to begin the "count"; relative to natal analysis profecting over time, the Asc house is the time of birth up to the first birthday; the second house following the Asc is from the 1st birthday to the 2nd birthday; the third house from the Asc house is from the 2nd birthday to the 3rd birthday, etc etc: +Boulin's Asc/1st House (Whole Signs) is Pisces: this represents the year between his birth and his first birthday; Aries represents the time from his 1st to his 2nd birthday; Taurus from his 2nd to his 3rd birthday; and so on round and round the circle of signs; by this profection, Boulin's 58th to 59th year fall (in the n11th House) under Capricorn. Boulin's 59th to 60th year falls in the n12th House-Boulin died in the third month of his 59th year: THE PART OF MURDER IS POSITED AT 12Aquarius39: therefore, by profection the year of Boulin's death is ruled by the sign in which the Part of Murder is posited (also the nPart of Most Dangerous year is posited here in Aquarius) +In Pauline time profection after having found the relevant year you can find the relevant month, by starting as Month 1 from the sign which yielded the year: in Boulin's case we count from the relevant year (his 59th-60th, ie Aquarius) based on his birthday: thus, July 20th (his birthday) to August 20th is Aquarius; August 20 to September 20 is Pisces; September 20 to October 20 is Aries (he died in October, 1979) This 3rd month profection to Aries hits the natal sign IN WHICH THE PART OF DEATH IS POSITED. +Finally we use the method to find a day; the relevant month sign ended at October 20th; so: the next sign, Taurus, relates to (midnight to midnight) Oct 20-21; next Gemini Oct 21-22: next is Cancer for Oct 22-23; then Leo for Oct 23-24; now Virgo for Oct-24-25; next Libra for Oct. 25-26; then Scorpio for Oct. 26-27; next Sagittarius for Oct. 27-28; now we come to Capricorn for the 24 hours between midnight October 28 and midnight October 29; finally we come to Aquarius for the 24 hours between midnight October 29th and midnight October 30th, 1979; here on the fatal day we find it ruled by Aquarius wherein the natal Part of Murder is posited. From the above analyses I submit that the cosmic testimony is strongly in favor of Robert Boulin's death by murder, done by secret enemies with connections to French police, prosecutorial or possibly governmental or Gaullist Party officials, or to persons who could control such individuals. Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:36 am
23 by Martine Martin Gansten wrote : Martine wrote: Quote: on 30th October 1979 -converse direction of Moon to square of Saturn. In this primary direction, the Moon is the promittor and Saturn is the significator, therefore the Moon acts on Saturn and not the reverse. Please note that traditionally, a significator is a planet or point which signifies a matter, and a promissor/promittor is a planet or aspect which affects the matter, regardless of which is moving towards which. In a direction between a planet and an aspect point, the aspect point can only be the promissor, making the planet the significator. When the significator is moved with the primary motion, the direction is (again traditionally) called converse. (I haven't looked at the chart under discussion, so I am not sure whether Astroart meant 'converse' in this traditional sense or in the modern sense of 'against the primary motion'.) This is important. So it appears I was mistaken. The square of Saturn is the promittor and Moon, the hyhleg, is the significator, as stated by Astroart. Thank you, Martin, for this clarification. Th Moon is at 5?30' Libra, Saturn is at 9?11' Virgo. I think it is the 9?11' Sagittarius point which is carried by the diurnal movement to the conjunction of the Moon. I think that the direction is converse in the traditional sense. Martine Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:11 am
24 by Martine Hello Dr. Farr Thank you for this very convincing demonstration. I particularly appreciated the fact that you use simple although traditional techniques, which you clearly describe. It is easy and pleasant to read without being simple, and this is not always the case with such complete interpretations ! I do think that these techniques are less sensitive than others to a rounded off birth time. For instance, if we rectify the birth time as Astroart did to 22:55, the Ascendant moves to 23?49', that is 2?22' less. This would change a little the positions of the parts, but not their lords, and I don't think it would make a difference. Your use of Pauline profections, Year/month/day, is particularly instructive. It made me notice I had made a mistake in a previous mail. The yearly profection is to the 12th house, as you say, and not the 1st. I should have known better. You may be interested to know that a person I know wrote an analysis of this case in a French list, using the Chinese astrology of the 111 stars (created in the 10th century by Tr?n Doan and derived from the Yi King). He came to the same conclusion as you do. Regards Martine Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:15 pm
25 by margherita Martine wrote: Th Moon is at 5?30' Libra, Saturn is at 9?11' Virgo. I think it is the 9?11' Sagittarius point which is carried by the diurnal movement to the conjunction of the Moon. I think that the direction is converse in the traditional sense. The ascendant is in Pisces, true? So the Moon is in the quadrant from MC to Desc. According Ptolemy in this case you would consider how much it takes for the Moon to arrive to the Descendant, adding and subtracting years according position of planets which interfere with it, which is called horimea. Anyway I guess that nobody understand how Ptolemy would calculate it And the direction of the Moon to the square of Saturn (which I believe it's a direct because we move the 9 Sagittarius to the 6 Virgo, according the motion of Prime Mover) is earlier during 1960s. At least I cannot have in any way 1980s. But just giving a super quick look to the chart, a Cancer Sun with a Pisces Ascendant can easily think to suicide, in my humble opinion magherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:38 pm
26 by Martine Hello Magherita Astroart wrote : If the birth time is 5 minutes earlier or 22:55 and if we use Placidus zodiacal primary directions with latitide of aspects according to Blanchinus - Gaurico - Argoli with Naibod key- the result will be: on 30th October 1979 -converse direction of Moon to square of Saturn. You wrote : And the direction of the Moon to the square of Saturn (which I believe it's a direct because we move the 9 Sagittarius to the 6 Virgo, according the motion of Prime Mover) is earlier during 1960s. At least I cannot have in any way 1980s. I tried to find this direction with Janus 4.3 and with Morinus, but I did not succeed. However, I could not do it with the latitude of aspects, as there was no option for it. You are right, if we more the 9 Sagittarius (promittor) to the 6 Virgo (significator), that is direct in both the traditional and the modern sense. But there is also the other square of Saturn, at 9 Gemini. For this one, the direction is converse. I will try to calculate these two directions with Janus and let you know. Regards Martine Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:58 pm
27 by Martine Contrary to what I said before, there is an option in Janus for the latitude of aspects. It is called "Bianchini". I calculated the Placidus zodiacal primary directions with this option, for a birth at 22:55 and found the following : - Sinister square Saturn direct to Moon 9 Feb 1967 - Dexter square Saturn converse to Moon 28 Oct 2010. So you are right, it cannot be around 1979-80. You wrote : But just giving a super quick look to the chart, a Cancer Sun with a Pisces Ascendant can easily think to suicide, in my humble opinion I came to the same conclusion, looking at the almuten of the Ascendant. But, whatever was in his mind, it seems likely that he was murdered. Regards Martine Quote Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:31 pm