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Lost Man in Boston - Last Seen Chart
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark ... I'm no expert on the parts; most of my experimenting has been with lots in primary directions in natal charts.

Bascially, I look for the part's ruler in a strong position (angular, opposed, trine, conjunct, sextile) from the part itself and preferably connected to houses with a strong analogy to the part i.e. ruler of Lot of Death connected to 8th, or ruler of 8th, or Asc or Asc ruler. Ruler of Lot of Nobility connected to 10th, or ruler of the 10th, or Sun, or Moon; etc.

In this chart, if Jupiter was square the part and connected with evil places (8th, 12th, 6th) I'd be more inclined to consider the part active but I'd still want the part/Mercury opposition to be in the same degree (close doesn't seem to cut it with parts); or Jupiter in close aspect (within 3) with Mercury or the Asc.

When a part is just 'nearby' and its ruler is not actively involved in the scenario the part seems to be purely descriptive of things ie the people involved are thinking of events the part describes but not actually engaged in them.

I thought the lot of death was active in the original Placidus chart because of the things mentioned.

The Lot of Death is at 15 Aries. The lot's ruler, Mars is in Cancer (strongly placed in the 4th from the lot), it rules an evil place (12th) and is closely sextile (2) Mercury, the Asc ruler, and Saturn (1), ruler of the 8th (death). So Mar's is in a position to act (angular from the lot), it is inclined to produce evil (ruling 12th, connection with 8th) and it has a close connection to the Asc ruler.

When I looked at the Lot of Peril, found it at 11 Gemini, exactly on the Asc so the two are 'one' in a sense and Mercury is in Virgo, 4th from the lot and very strong in domicile; so again, I considered this lot active. Mercury has the incentive and the power to produce 'peril'.

Hope that makes sense.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sure does make sense and I thank you so much for your efforts here. You explained all of this is clear language, with your reasoning fully described and in a totally traditional way. I appreciate this a lot.

By the way, who is the source for the lot of suicide? I have not been able to find it in the Zoller translation of Bonatti.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkF wrote:

By the way, who is the source for the lot of suicide? I have not been able to find it in the Zoller translation of Bonatti.


Janus includes it with a reference to 'Yang' but I have no idea who they're referring to. It is also listed at Dreamhouse Attic with credit given to Robert Hurtz Granite, again, no idea who he is.

There might be an older source but would have to dig through old texts to see.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steven wrote:
Hi Jane,

Nice to read from you now and again Very Happy


Hi Steven, long time no read Smile Hope all is well with you and yours.

Quote:

Quote:
Paulus lists another Lot, Nemesis (Saturn + Moon - Sun) which falls at 27 Taurus 13 which he describes as the revealing of everything which is hidden, and of impotence and flight/exile and destruction/loss and grief and quality of death.


Actually I wonder if you might have copied this formula wrong.


Ack ... you are right, of course. That's what I get for doing things to quickly; I took the formula from my notes on Schmidt's Lot intensive; he re-works the 7 Panaretos Lots as 3 planet lots, removing the Asc from equation. I quoted the revised formula for the lot in Night charts. Apologies if I misled anyone.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steven wrote:
Hi Jane,

OK Very Happy Now we're on the same page. It might be helpful for others to see just how Schmidt arrived at that. I would like to see how he reduces the diurnal formula to 3 planets.

Steven


Hi Steven,

Schmidt gives a brief explanation of how he arrived at them in this ACT post on the Lot of Eros. Unfortunately I don't think he's made any more details available publicly and the copyright on the Intensive material prohibits me from revealing it Sad
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seems to be some overlap between what I'm reading in the Zoller translation of Bonatti and the from Schmidt/Paulus, who I am not as familiar with. And of couse, many times they both use the same lot but call it by a different name.

However, I did run across one from Zoller/Bonatti called the lot of the hyleg which is dead on active in this chart. Bonatti has the lot of hyleg as the distance from either the previous New Moon or Full Moon (which ever is closest) to the Moon and that distance is projected on to the ASC. In this chart the lot would be at 15 Leo 36', a mere 6' from the 4th house cusp. I'd take it as another sign that the body will be discovered soon.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark ... missed that one. Right on the IC and sextile it's ruler it does look active. The pars Hyleg is also called the Root of Life, appropriate in this chart Sad

Been trying to see the timing; the body was discovered by the police on the 15th, a week after the disappearance. Mars (police) is 1 (1 week) from the sextile of Saturn (body)?
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answering MarkF's original question, I would say. yes, we should use "common sense" and all other available objective data we can find in helping us understand not just missing person charts, but in fact ALL charts.

The investigations of the cosmic influences relating to the death of the subject posted in the current thread have been exceptionally good. Using my rather simplistic methods (as I did in my "Robert Boulin:Suicide or Murder?" postings in "Traditional" under the "Kepler Key" thread, qv) I am led to believe the cosmic testimony in this current case favors death by acute illness (probably due to a type of toxemic reaction) over suicide, accident or murder. If you would like to examine my astrological reasoning in coming to this conclusion let me know here and I'll post it.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dr Farr, I'll bite. How do you get death by acute illness from this chart?
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My "finding" of death due to sudden sickness is actually close to Janeg indications of death due to accident: I believe that the subject accidentally fell into the James River and (likely) drowned, but in my analysis the proximate cause of the fatal accident is indicated as sudden (acute) sickness (likely toxemic in nature or related)

+I shall soon post my little analysis (I'll present it in the same way I presented my analysis of the Boulin death controversy), but I want to point out that I used Whole Sign Houses in my method; therefore with the Part of Suicide I used the sensitive degree of the sign of the house (which is the same degree as the Asc), and did the same with the Part of Death (in Whole Sign Houses all "cusps" = 0:0 degrees; we use "sensitive points" for each sign as the "cusp" equivalent, all of these being based upon the Asc degree) therefore my sign positions for these important Parts are different than those studied in the earlier postings of this thread (excellent postings by the way!) relating to consideration of these Parts.

+I used the Part of Death (rather than the Asc or Pars Hyleg-explanation as to why to follow in my later posting) as Significator; I also compared the Parts of Accident, Murder, Suicide and (Acute) Disease ("sudden sickness" in my context of this chart), and their respective "Indicators" (planetary lords of the signs in which each Part is posited) In my following posting I shall give the exact calculations I used to determine these Parts, but for now I'll just list the Parts as I calculated them:
P. Death: 7Capricorn5 (ind. = Saturn)
P. Accident: 12Leo50 (ind. = Sun)
P. Murder: 24Virgo17 (ind. = Mercury)
P. Suicide: 17Pisces11 (ind. = Jupiter)
P. "Sudden Sickness" (Asc. + Mars - Mercury): 8Aries52 (ind. = Mars)

+In calculating the "dignities" (degree of significance or "power) among the 4 Parts used (Accident, Murder, Suicide, "Sudden Sickness) for comparative relevance in the chart (the actual subject of the chart being what circumtances influenced the death of the body found) I applied the old Turkish "Arabic Parts Dignity Table" of Calid Bey:

...by this table each Part is given a weighted score according to the following criteria; that Part having the highest score ("dignity") is regarded as the dominating Part and, together with its Indicator, is accorded most relevance and importance (among the Parts) in that chart:

Criteria

+commanding sign +1
..obeying sign 0

+rising +1
..setting 0

+above the earth +1
..below the earth 0

+in the sign of the MC +2
..nearest the MC (if none in the sign of MC) +1

+in male sign +1
..in female sign 0

+in male half of sign +1
..in female half of sign 0

+in angular house +2
..in succedent house +1
..in cadent house 0

+in fixed sign +2
..in cardinal sign +1
..in mutable sign 0

+in same sign as Sun's position +2
..in same sign as Moon's position +1
..(Cazimi +3)

I applied the above table in coming to a determination of the most dignified Part.

Will be posting the results of my analysis soon.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All,

This is just a personal choice, but I'm not sure I'd use what we call common sense in a chart such as this. In a chart that we do for a living client, a chart about their own life, I do think that their own common sense and life experience is not only acceptable, but is needed. For example, if the chart points to the influence of some person who the chart describes as being of the nature of Venus who is possibly related to their work, I'd want the client to figure out exactly who is represented by that planet.

But in a chart like this, I'd prefer to rest on the chart itself, and not what we call common sense. For one thing, we only have imperfect information given to us by the media. They said the poor man's body seemed to have only been in the river for two days. But a month from now an autopsy may come out that says differently. Statements made to the media by relatives can be clouded with emotion and a desire to protect the memory of the deceased.

My guess is that police work is done like this - to look to the evidence, and not to our assumptions.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr Farr wrote:

I applied the old Turkish "Arabic Parts Dignity Table" of Calid Bey:

...by this table each Part is given a weighted score according to the following criteria; that Part having the highest score ("dignity") is regarded as the dominating Part and, together with its Indicator, is accorded most relevance and importance (among the Parts) in that chart:


This is the first I've heard of weighting Parts. Seems like a lot of extra work, do you do this all the time?
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Posts: 98

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark F wrote:

My guess is that police work is done like this - to look to the evidence, and not to our assumptions.


Yes, but being human, I think assumptions always creep in. Agree with you though, they are much less likely to mislead if we're aware of our capacity to indulge in them and actively try to weed them out Confused
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:19 am    Post subject: Weighting Arabic Parts Reply with quote

Yes-whenever I am applying several different Parts in analyzing a chart, and even in determining the relative influences of such frequently used Parts as the Pars Hyleg, Pars Fortuna and Pars Spiritus in a chart, I have found that determining their relative dignities helps me a great deal in directing my attention toward that Part which has the "strongest" (most relevant) influence. Weighting the Parts is especially of value in horary and katarchic (event) work, and in progressions (not of such great value in basic natal work)
+Actually it does not take much time at all to weight the Parts if you are working with only 2, 3 or 4 of them.
(PS: please be aware that I am not trying to convince anyone to use this method; I am simply explaining how I proceed using this apparently long forgotten technique)

(Note to all: I had planned to post my elaborated analysis re: the subject of this thread today-however, I shall be delayed in making this posting for a couple more days-sorry!)
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:34 am    Post subject: Attention Ms Houlding Reply with quote

After signing in I spent an hour and a half posting part of my analysis of the astrological testimonies involved in the subject matter of this thread; when hitting "preview", the "sign in" came on (I had already signed in previously); then I signed in again and-my posting was gone, nowhere to be found. What happened to it?

Last edited by dr. farr on Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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