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Right Ascension and Fixed Stars
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

with a bit playing with the Astrodienst charts going for Asc. 17°00' Virgo, this gives local time 9h03h30s Sidereal Time 4h53m48s
MC 14°45'Gemini, East Point 12°03'Virgo, Anti-Vertex 26°39' Leo.
(I'm sorry René but according to the definitions I have found the East Point is not the same as the Anti-Vertex)


Zosma/Delta Leonis is in the Astronomical Ephemeris position for the year 2006,5 is:
11h14m27.2s Right Ascension = 168°37' RA
+20°29'17" Declination.

Converted to ecliptical coordinates (I used obliquity ecliptic of 23°27' to perform the conversion and in all calculations, also of Vertex and East Point) gives ca. : 21°24' Virgo, +14°20' Latitude.

The RA and Decl. of a point on the ecliptic at 17°Virgo is
11h12m10s = 168°03' RA, + 5°08' Decl.

If Zosma would have been on the ecliptic, having latitude 0° (like Watters has been doing) whilst using the same right ascension then ecliptical position is 17°37'. This is for the middle of the year 2006. At Borden's birthday 146 years earlier the star was 2°02' back in the (tropical) zodiac, so at 15°35' Virgo. In the (let's say middle of the) year of Watters' book some 37 before 2006.5 the position would have been 0°31' back in the ecliptic giving postion of 17°06' Virgo.

So unless I have made some mistake here she used an astronomical ephemeris of the 1960's and didn't perform correction for precession of the equinoxes. Could someone with a computer program verify this?

Quote:
There are some astrological references that are inexplicable. I mean how many of us knew that the 17 Virgo - Pisces axis was an axis of violence?
Perhaps Watters used Sabian symbols, these are so vague that they can be interpreted in any which way you wish to.

I had a look at the chart and I don't understand why Watters would be so bothered with some star at the ascendant while there are some very tight aspects of Sun, Venus and Mars.

The transits (at time of the murders) of Neptune and the (not yet discovered) Pluto (in conjunction with eachother in those years) are interesting. Both (transiting) were conjunct natal Uranus, which isn't very special but there's a 135° aspect to Mars, soon followed by a sextile to natal Moon and the 45° aspects to Venus and Sun. Transiting Uranus would have been 45° from the 17° Ascendant.

I'm sorry that I have to depend so much on modern planets and relatively modern aspects especially now the thread is in the traditional section. I try to use them as little as possible.
Without them the position of transiting Saturn would have been interesting if the Rodden data is used, conjunct ascendant. Saturn was also sextile to Sun, Venus and trine to Mars.
Jupiter transited square to the Sun conj. Venus to Mars opposition.

I don't see much with the Secondary progressions. I usually look mainly at the Sun and a bit to the Moon, very reluctant with the other planets. 2ndary progr Moon was square to the natal Sun conj. Venus to Mars opposition (just like Jupiter's transit but on the opposite side). Progressed Sun had been conjunct Saturn about 2 'years' before. I sometimes doubt the secondary progressions but if they work I think they (or at least the Sun's) are related to important decisions. If she did commit the murder then the idea might have come up at this progression and preparations might have been made for a 'perfect' crime. With such an activated Saturn, the transits would have had stronger effect.

As a 'Keplerian' I don't look much at houses but Saturn going through the XIIth house and progressed Sun as well could indicate more of this. XIIth house, 'hidden enemies', could either make her the hidden person or if she was innocent, the victim of a hidden enemy who commited the perfect crime yet foisting the guilt upon her.
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3D



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 125

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eddy,
Quote:

(I'm sorry René but according to the definitions I have found the East Point is not the same as the Anti-Vertex)


You are right of course. The East Point is the intersection of the Prime Vertical with the east horizon, projected onto th ecliptic, while the (Anti-)Vertex is the intersection of the Prime Vertical with the ecliptic itself. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:
If Zosma would have been on the ecliptic, having latitude 0° (like Watters has been doing) whilst using the same right ascension then ecliptical position is 17°37'. This is for the middle of the year 2006. At Borden's birthday 146 years earlier the star was 2°02' back in the (tropical) zodiac, so at 15°35' Virgo. In the (let's say middle of the) year of Watters' book some 37 before 2006.5 the position would have been 0°31' back in the ecliptic giving postion of 17°06' Virgo.


Great detective work! Thumbs up

René
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject: Very brief notes on Lizzie Borden Natal Chart Reply with quote

(Using Astrobank birth data + whole sign house method)
-Subject's moon, jupiter, mercury, saturn all in 12th house in leo (murders committed during leo)
-double malefic cauda draconis ("ketu"; mix of malefic mars/saturn qualities) also in leo at 2 degrees (conjunct jupiter; also within 5 degrees of sun and 8 degrees of moon)
-part of death of parents at 4 virgo; this is in 1st house; by progression of 1 degree per year, cauda draconis comes into 1 degree orb of part of death of parents at subject's 31st year; conjuncts part of death of parents in subject's 32 year (murders commited in subject's 32 year)
-part of murder at 13 degrees gemini located in 10th house; part of murder is highest elevation element in the natal chart (10th house of renown, fame, "work of our hands", etc; mercury ruler of sign on 10th affinitive with publicity, news, newspapers, dissemination of news, etc)
-part of murder conjunct uranus in gemini in 10th house;
-both part of death of parents and part of murder have same planetary significator (mercury dispositor of both parts, the one in virgo, the other in gemini); in natal chart mercury conjunct saturn in the 12th house (in leo)
-part of murder within 4 degrees of exact trine to part of fortune in natal chart, the latter in the 2nd house (money) in libra (justice, legal matters)

Astrological specialists will see some very interesting implications of the above data relative to the (likely) guilt (or otherwise) of Lizzie Borden!
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Eddy ! Great detective work Thumbs up Thumbs up

I have a feeling Smile

Watters could be trying a contemporary hotch-potch- using horary for chart rectification Idea

If you are not sure about the ascendant but know the date then draw up a horary- use the ascedant and houses of the horary for natal cusps but transplant the natal planets onto the chart this chart. I understand it could be quite enlightening. Shocked Confused Cool

PD


Last edited by pankajdubey on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:02 am    Post subject: Special Note on the Part of Murder Reply with quote

In my above posting I did not use the traditional formula in calculating the part of murder; I used a "modern" formula (1922) which I found in papers by Chalid Ottway (a medical astrologer active in the early decades of the 20th century) His modification of traditional lot calculations using fixed stars I have found most valuable (in health and therapeutic analysis) The formula for the part of murder which I used (from Ottway) is asc+moon-Graffias (the fixed star Graffias-considered by Ottway to be THE violent murder star) According to Ptolemy Graffias is of the nature of mars+saturn (see Robson for general indications of its influence) Actually, my attribution of the part of murder to 13 gemini is off, in part because I used Robson's 1920 position for Graffias (and in part because I made a 10 degree error in the natal moon position); in taking Graffias back to its 1860 position (Lizzie Borden's birth), and correcting for the moon's natal position, the resulting place of the part of murder is approximately 5 gemini (however, the implications in my posting relative to the part of murder in gemini in the 10th house, remain unchanged)
+ Using the traditional formula for the part of murder (Al-Biruni), asc+moon-ruler of asc, applied to Lizzie Borden's natal chart, what would we get?
-part of murder at 13 virgo; this would place it almost in the middle between the part of death of parents (4 virgo) and the asc (25 virgo), in the first house. Mercury would be the significator for both parts (as ruler of virgo and therefore dispositor of both parts placed in that sign) and the part of murder would be in semi-sextile to the part of fortune in libra in the 2nd house.
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the text Watters says she is using Johndro Charts cast for the location where a major event occurs in the life. I still have not found what time she used or where she got it, nor am I familiar with much of anything written by Johndro. Watters does say that using this method she does not need an accurate birth time. Well she had to use some time, and since, in the chart she used, the Sun is in the 11th house, she didn't use sunrise or noon.

In Lizzie's case this makes no difference since was was born in Fall River, Massachusetts, the location of the murders, and where she lived her entire life. Therefore the roughly 40 minute discrepancy between Watters' time and the Roden data is the only mystery.

Also I've been doing some reading on the case and it seems that there is little agreement regarding Lizzie's temperament and intelligence among the authors. If she wasn't smart enough to hide all evidence connecting her to the crime, she was the luckiest criminal in history (or she was innocent). The same is true for her father. He's been variously described as a ruthless businessman and notorious cheapskate, despite giving Lizzie a European vacation for her 30th birthday, and as being physically afraid of his own daughter. In order to establish motive, or lack of motive, we have to believe this or that about Lizzie. Therefore the descriptions vary in order to either establish motive or establish lack of motive. This seems to be the main thrust of many of the available books.

The problem is that motive means nothing in a court of law. The prosecution is not required to establish motive, although most do because juries like it. It does not matter to the law, if Lizzie Borden had or did not have a sensible motive to kill her father and stepmother. What matters is did she have opportunity (yes - without a doubt) and did she have the means to commit the crimes? That is where the problem is - no murder weapon was ever identified or found and there is no evidence she committed the acts, such as having the weapon or having bloody clothes or blood on her body.

Apparently the prosecution could not establish means so she was acquitted. Like the OJ trial (where opportunity and means were established to the satisfaction of any rational person), acquittal is not the same as "she didn't do it." It only means the prosecution didn't make its case, and in our system that is mandatory for conviction.

Tom
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see a resemblance between the house division of Alchabitius and that what Watters did with the positioning of the star.

Here's a picture of Alchabitius' house division, http://www.horauranian.com/images/column_1222365931/Alcabitius_220.jpg

That meridian line that crosses the ascendant is also the line on which the star in Watters' method would be placed.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done some surfing on Johndro in an effort to discover just what Watters is doing and I found mostly information on the Vertex. But I found this statement that I believe is of interest:

Quote:
Therefore, modern methods and means are constantly invented to manage even without having the precise Nativity worked out as for example L. Edward Johndro Geographic Locality Method (see his "The Stars - How and Where they Influence" and "The Earth in the Heavens" chapter 5 [Verification of World Events]).


Perhaps someone has these books and can give us some help here. It might be significance that Watters ASC is so close to the ASC ofthe Johndro method.

Tom
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Zavijava and Lizzie Borden Reply with quote

If we accept 25virgo22 as Lizzie Borden's ascendant, then we find a star conjunct it which really explains a great deal. That star is B virginis, aka Zavijava. Taking it back from Robson's 1920 table (Zavijava then at 26 virgo 02) to 1860 (Borden's birth) at the rate (given in Robson) of 46.9 seconds annually, we find it placed in Borden's natal chart at 25virgo15, within 7 minutes of perfect conjunction with her ascendant degree.
The Ptolemaic qualities attributed to Zavijava are mercury+mars; it gives it's natives "...force of character, strength, destructiveness and
COMBATIVE MOVEMENTS"...you know, like the kind of movements you would make if you were chopping someone up with an axe (vide Robson page 219-Fixed Stars book)
-A bit more specific than the speculated Zosma in this nativity, I think.
Taken together with the other natal testimony in this case (as I briefly outlined in my posts above) Zavijava being nearly exactly conjunct the (traditionally arrived at) ascendant has convinced me that Lizzie Borden did in fact "take an axe" and gave many whacks!
(Footnote: natal ascendant declination given as 1 degree 50 minutes North; declination of Zavijava for 1860-approximated from Robson's 1920 tables-is about 2 degrees 33 minutes North; thus the ascendant and Zavijava are definitely within 1 degree of parallel declination)
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Sarah



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Scotland

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Johndro Charts Reply with quote

I was alerted to this discussion and have joined the forum to add some information re Johndro charts.

I have the two Johndro books that are referred to.

Also Barbara Watters 1971 book "Sex and the Outer Planets" which has an appendix on the formula for casting Johndro birth location charts. Perhaps it would be helpful if I summarised that?

Sarah
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sarah,

Welcome and yes that would be very helpful. This is not the usual forum for this sort of discussion, but it started out traditional (Right Ascension to fixed stars), now I'm curious, so if you wish, please summarize for us just what he is doing.

Tom
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Sarah



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
Posts: 3
Location: Scotland

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Johndro Chart uses "locality angles" ie takes the locality of the native or event to establish the Asc and MC. Barbara Watters was taking the place of the significant event in the case of murderers whose time of birth was unknown. Sometimes this varied from birth place but not in the case of Lizzie Borden.

Johndro's theory was that there is a close interplay between the individual and the environment. He believed in physical (cosmic electromagnetic) influences at work in the place where an individual happens to be and that these could be very "fateful".

Fixed stars are very important to Johndro for example he writes "If a man's planets configure large magnitude stars he will make himself heard afar and if they configure smaller magnitude stars his range will be less"
He uses both RA and declination for the stars. He believed the individual nature of the fixed stars that were remote from the ecliptic were studied in very ancient times but the knowledge was not preserved in the records handed down to Ptolemy's time.

Fixed stars are centres of radiant energy which amplify the tendencies of the planets. The stars emit the electromagnetic waves and the planets reflect them according to their individual nature or "frequency of oscillatory responses" - Johndro was an electrical engineer!

To explain this to the reader he gives two analogies:
1) The fixed stars and the Sun's light frequency waves can be likened to the carrier wave of a radio transmitter. Planetary frequencies to the audio frequency that is being transmitted.
2) The Sun and stars light waves are Paul Revere's horse (!) and the planet's frequencies are Paul himself. Without the horse the message would not have gone so far. Without Paul, the horse would have been unable to pass on the message - the horse is dumb.
When a planet moves to conjunction with the Sun or a star in either plane of the earth's movement (ecliptic or RA) it intersects the star's radial field and its frequency is imposted on the stars light frequency wave.

I will do another post summarising how to do a Johndro chart. - if you can stand some more of the 20th Century. Having just produced one for a significant place in my life that is far from my birthplace I am beginning to see the value which is greater than that achieved through astro-location maps.

Sarah
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Sarah



Joined: 08 Oct 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Information Purposes - Please do not shoot the messenger Very Happy

In "Sex and the Outer Planets" Barbara Watters gives the formula used for casting the Johndro charts which give primary consideration to the place of birth or residence rather than the time of birth.

In Johndro's book "The Earth in the Heavens" he gives an explanation on the precessional factor for RA. He uses Greenwich but states that the coincidence of Greenwich with the vernal equinox actually happened in 365BC so the first calculation rectifies this.

The annual rate is 46.10 seconds per year (not 50.25 seconds as it is on the ecliptic).

Taking (his chosen year) 1930 figure of 29 degrees 10 minutes you multiply the number of years before or after 1930 by the annual rate and subtract or add the result to get the RAMC for Greenwich for the desired year.

Then taking the latitude of the birthplace you add for East, subtract for West (and add 360 degrees if the longitude to be subtracted is greater than the RAMC in Greenwich which it will be for the USA).

This gives the RAMC for the desired location.

Now, take the position of the Sun for the date of birth in the correct year from your ephemeris.

Enter a table of RA to discover the RA of the sun for that degree.
Add this factor to you previous sum.
This gives the RAMC for the place and date of birth.

With a table of Houses for the appropriate latitude of the birth place use this RAMC to establish the cusps of houses.

If the birth hour is known figure out the correct positions of the planets and place within the Johndro locality chart
Otherwise enter the planets as shown in the ephemeris for noon or midnight GMT as the case may be (!)
Note on the chart the hour this would be at the location
eg if using a noon ephemeris the hour in NYC for the given planetary positions would be 7am, with a midnight ephemeris it would be 7pm

Barbara then works an example using the USA 1776 chart.

Johndro's book - which I got in a second hand bookshop in Glasgow, Scotland - has a useful table of cities of the world and their latitudes, RAMC's, midheaven's and ascendants.


Sarah
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll hold my fire if you can explain this to me:

Why do all that when the event locale and the birthplace are the same as in Borden's case? She was born in Fall River, Mass. I suppose if Watters had no knowledge of Lizzie's birth time, and she may not have, this method produces a birth time that is relatively close to what we have simply by coincidence. Watters did not give a time in the book. And since this is a locality chart, how does Watters get off describing LIzzie using her ASC as though it were a birth ASC?

The planetary placements, except the Moon are exactly what Solar Fire gives (rounded up) except for the Moon. There is a one degree minimum difference, Watters does not give minutes, between this Moon and the data I have. Or because it happened to work out that this chart is only 40 minutes difference these placements and the actual ones are virtually identical. How far does Saturn travel in 40 minutes? There is an important shift in house placements however.

I've read a bit about Lizzie trying to get a handle on her character and personality, and have only discovered that so has everyone else that is interested in the case. Lizzie is an enigma and none of this is helped by the rather sensational contemporary press coverage followed by the usual lunatic fringe conspiracy theories all of which have one common trait: there is no credible evidence to support them. I get the impression of Watters trying to find Victoria Lincoln's Lizzie in this chart rather than finding Lizzie in the chart.

However I've decided not to shoot and instead offer my sincere thanks for putting in so much time and effort into the explanation. Since, intellectually, I'm growing closer and closer to Renaissance thinking, I'll strive mightily to ignore the heretical remark about what you call "The 20th century," whatever it might be. Wink

Thanks again and welcome to Skyscript.

Tom
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dr. farr



Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 276
Location: los angeles, california usa

Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I join our moderator in expressing thanks to Sarah for taking the time to outline the basics of Johndro's method. But relative to applying that method in determining the astrological influences of fixed stars (and of ascendant degrees when time of birth or event ARE known), I submit gives results which are inferior to those we can obtain by the application of traditional techniques.
-In "Fixed Stars", Robson mentions right ascension for determining star position as essentially something the reader might want to experiment with (he gives the math for determining position by r.a. with latitude and also r.a. without latitude, in the appendix of his book; he gives r.a. tables, with annual variation, dated 1920, and latitude, in the earlier part of the book) The old time astrologers were quite familiar with right ascension and the principles of its application, yet virtually all of them chose not to apply it for determining star positions. Why? I suggest the old astrologers' application of traditional methods in determining star position yielded more precise and reliable indications for astrological analytical and predictive purposes, than using r.a. did. Even moderns like the Ebertins still used traditional methods to determine ecliptic longitude and declinations for the star positions, not r.a. The traditional methods simply give better results. For example, if we look at the indications in Robson for the (speculated) Zosma position (as detemined by non-traditional methods) and then compare those indications with Zavijava (my posting above), its position found through the use of traditional method, the precision of the latter star's indications (within the over-all context of the Borden natal chart and the events of her actual life) fit much more closely than those of Zosma.
-I don't knock any whole-system-model (like Johndro's) or any experimental innovation (star postion by r.a.), however for me (personally) the old-time methods have proven their worth in actual practice, and have demonstrated their great reliability in the analysis of macrocosmic influences.
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