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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Ethical and moral concerns
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Ethical and moral concerns Reply with quote

Yesterday I opened a topic with a chart regarding a potential love affair between a single Querent and and occupied (probably and most likely married) man. Being aware of the delicacy of the issue, I was actually one one step away from deciding not to post the chart at all but being also very curious to hear as to what other members might have to say about the placement of the main significators I posted it any way. Naturally, today, among the answers I have also found a suggestion (tanit333 Wink ) that such charts should not be delineated in the first place considering the nature of the matter inquired after. At the same time- I'm aware (or becoming aware of the fact) that my perception just might be significantly different from the mainstream opinion or, at least, from the opinion of a significant number of Astrologers!
In order to leave room for specific answers to my question in the other topic, I decided I'd simply answer to Tanit's post here and, at the same time "challenge" the rest of you to share your opinions and experiences regarding such questions.

So, a woman wants to know if there is any chance of starting an affair with a married man- she's interested in basically everything from a casual sexual affair to a steady relationship. But he is married and, if he indeed does decide to start a relationship (of any kind) with her, he'll either have to start cheating on his wife (extramarital affair) or even leave her (in order to start a steady relationship with the Querent!). And that is immoral! Does answering such question put the Astrologer on their side too?

In 8 years of studying this Art I've come across such situations more times than I could have ever expected to! and, in a way- I actually got used to them! But at the same time, I've noticed that the Astrologers mainly decide not "to get involved" for two main reasons :

First- under the "burden" of their own moral/ethical codex,they consider such actions to be wrong and thus, decide to send the Quesited (the Natal chart owner) home and often advise them to stay out of the whole situation. But such decisions can turn the Astrologer into a priest and people can get preachings (as one of my friend's clients once said)- for free. When they come to see an Astrologer, they want help. Whilst the Astrologer needs to advise the Querent, point into the direction from which the danger might be coming and suggest caution based on what the chart says - is he/she allowed to go as far as to conclude that what the Querent is up to is morally or ethically wrong?!
I have at least 5 Natal charts of people who have spent most of their adult life living basically on the other side of the law. As they often say- they would never steal from other people- only from the state! Smile They don't want me to tell them that what they are doing is wrong- they want to know as to how big the chances of them being imprisoned/caught/trialed are during the next year. In their eyes it is probably me who is stupid- because it is so very easy to become rich. (In my eyes, i probably am stupid because they indeed are rich! Very Happy A joke, of course!)

I wouldn't, of course, want this discussion to take a wrong course and open the door to questions such as "are we are allowed to help a murderer find his victim or help someone rob a bank" (I highly doubt they seek for advice of Astrologer in the first place!)- but I would like to know what other Astrologers have got to say when it comes to those "less harmful crimes" such as adultery or extramarital affairs- things that are not against the law and yet they're often labeled as tabu topics or ethically wrong actions. But also very much present!

For what I know- about one half of all the married couples I know had already been married when they met each other and they're happy now.
A woman, who came to me with her Natal chart about 2,5 years ago, came to me again last July (2008. actually) saying that she had just met a lovely only married man. We didn't really talk much about him as she was mainly interested in her professional life at the time but, this June, she came back asking if she could ask a Horary question about that man- but it wasn't a romance horary; she actually wanted to know whether they'd be able to buy a bigger flat during the next year. Apparently, he had already left his wife and moved in with the Querent. We spent an hour talking about removal vans, new furniture and bank loans; the Querent had already taken care of the main part. So, what should have I said to her last summer?!
About 40% (if not more) of all the marriages in Western countries fall apart sooner or later. I've got a chart of a worlds sports champion who is an illegitimate child of a single mother- the Astrologer should not advise a Nativity to do an abortion, should he/she?! But both the abortion and having an illegitimate child is considered to be non ethical in many societies. Luckily, his mother decided to have him (i don't say this because he is now a champion, of course!).

There will always be a Nativity out there who's chart is saying that she might become a cheated or abandoned wife during her lifetime. The woman who will eventually fall in love with her husband and who's chart says that she will meet her future husband while he is still married to his first wife might just be sitting in another astrologer's office asking about her romantic future as we speak! What do we do with them?!

Secondly- the personal systems of values can significantly vary from one person to another even inside the same family, let alone in different cultures. I live on Mediterranean Very Happy and, for a member of another society, our perception of physical love may seem a bit deviated and wrong. For many people here- the affairs are normal! Smile * Live and let live! * Enjoy the beauty! * If you can't marry her, she can always be your mistress! * If you're in love- get married, or not, no one cares if your marriage is legitimate! (and the law supports that) * You don't have to be married to have a child! (again, not aginst the law) * Having sex with another woman is not cheating as long as you're still in love with your wife! * Steal his wife, he ain't your brother! Laughing etc. Whilst for some other people, we're probably buttoned up Puritans who don't know better than to have only one wife or keep our extramarital affairs secret (if you do it, why don't you talk about it?!) ! Smile
My grandmother was from a town with 7 times more women than men. i only know one astrologer there and she says that in the past 30 years she has had multiple cases of delineating charts of different women all married to the same man (not at the same time, of course! Very Happy ). Once, she had a visit from one of those men himself, asking about his future with the 4th woman- his 4th wife! Smile


So, what would you do if the Querent would ask a question about the prospect of having an extramarital affair or even "stealing" someone elses spouse! I must say- I'm generally ok with it! At the end of the day, it's the Querent (Native) that has got to pull the strings of his/her own life and make decisions- we are only here to help them learn more about their Natal promise or offer our readings of their charts. It's one thing to say that the chart says "beware his wife" but, saying that the Querent should not get involved because it is wrong can sound as though the Astrologer is pointing his/her finger into the Querent and saying :"You cheater/stealer!!!". Knowing the mentality of the people where I live, such actions would soon put a big lock on that Astrologer's office!


Last edited by aglaya on Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:09 am; edited 8 times in total
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear !

Lock this before this gets ugly or personal Idea

This forum is generally one of the more liberal forums that I ave been on and not sanctimonious. So just get on with it Agalya Smile and tell us which planet/house represents the wife and which one is for the mistress !!

PD
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
Oh dear !

Lock this before this gets ugly or personal Idea

This forum is generally one of the more liberal forums that I ave been on and not sanctimonious. PD



Hi, pankajudubey!

Well, your answer is pretty much why I opened this topic in the first place and, to be honest-it answers most of my questions! Very Happy This forum offers a great opportunity for the Astrologers to communicate with their colleagues living across the world and I'm more than curious to hear about, not only their thoughts, but also their experiences. Your reaction is obviously saying a lot about the kind of questions you usually come across and what your society thinks of such matters!

I am the last person who would like to see this topic turning into a battlefield but it was basically a very technical question and, like I said- your reaction is a clear example of how different our approaches are and I appreaciate it.
After all- I asked this question in a community full of experienced and serious Astrologers, I don't see it as a place where people could get carried away and start insulting each that easily (if at all)!

Of course, I will go through my post again and see if I any of its parts are not clear enough or could be easily misunderstood as my intention, by all means, was not to sound disrespectful of other people's customs, beliefs or values and if you did find it insulting, i sincerely do apologize to you (I mean that!)

But my question was rather serious and sincere! WE live in different societies. Not so long ago, inspired by a thread about an arranged marriage posted here on forum, I started reading about such marriages and what the Indian astrologers have got to say about them- did you know that an average European Astrologer usually never comes across a such question! Quite the opposite, there have been multiple cases of the authorities "stepping in" and putting the families where the parents were encouraging their children to get married that way under their own control.
Following that logic- if a person should come to me and ask if she should marry her daughter for this or that man- my moral impulse would actually probably be telling me that what that woman is doing is wrong because, according to our Constitution, that would mean neglecting the daughter's right to free will.
Adulterous woman are sentenced to death in some countries while in most other parts of the world- no one really minds- there's no law to prevent her from cheating on her husband,there are no extra sanctions for her in case he files for a divorce and she will even keep her share of the family's property once they're divorced. As long as she is a good parent- she will kepp the kids too.
That's what we live with every day!
So, as you can see, the things significantly vary from a society to a society!

You surely do know that in some countries, gay people are sentenced to death for their sexual orientation; speaking of "sanctimonious" ! But, at the same time, gay marriages are legal in some European countries, it is against the law to say something insulting about gay people and, apparently, they will soon be declared legal in my country too.

The biggest percentage of all the questions has got something to do with love/relationships/marriages- I believe that is pretty much the same everywhere. But when it comes to marriages, the things don't work the same way in every country/culture. Where I live- one half of all the marriages falls apart. About 1/3 of all the Quetions I've had in the last year was about extramarital affairs- we simply had to come to terms with that. Turning a blind eye on the fact that a marriage is not a "til the death do us apart" kind of obligation/institution any more is of all the importance, as those are the stories of our clients.
Still, I hope that the Astrologers who do not support divorces, illegal marriages etc. will not find this insulting and will realise that my question was very serious!

Quote:
So just get on with it Agalya and tell us which planet/house represents the wife and which one is for the mistress !!


We've had plenty of charts cast upon questions concerning married people, forbidden relationships, love triangles or asked by people who were not aware that the person of their interest was already involved in a relationship. Many experienced Astrologers have also shared their thoughts and inputs on how to search for evidences of a hidden affair, infidelity or the presence of a mistress/lover or an unknown wife/husband in someone's ife!
I believe there is also more than one delineated chart cast upon question concerning love triangles (one for sure, delineated by Deb) offered in the articles section.
Such things exist (and are even fairly common in some cultures) and, turning a bling eye on them can actually be very dangerous as, sooner or later, a Querent will come to us and ask:"When will my boyfriend propose to me?" and the chart will be saying that he is already involved in a relationship with someone other than the Querent. People do it, people are our clients and we have to be aware of that. And so, yes,we do have to find a way to determine when a person involved in a relationship is having and extra affair, a lover or even a wife!


regards! Wink


Last edited by aglaya on Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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Deb
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Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Aglaya

I can understand Tanit’s point. Personally, I wouldn’t want to get involved in a forum discussion with another astrologer about how best to advise a woman seeking an affair with a married man. So to get this out of the way, I completely understand Tanit’s reaction and felt it was appropriate that she stated her position clearly. I am always pleased to see question marks being placed over the ethics of horaries, because many situations are loaded with heavy ethical implications. The astrologer needs to be thoughtful about the consequences of any advice or encouragement that is given.

On the other hand, and concerning the broader principle - yes I agree with you. Many of the querents who come to us are genuinely seeking a bit of help and guidance because they are not sure what to do, because they are in ‘knotty’ relationship situations. The reality is that a lot of our relationship horaries do concern affairs, for good or for bad. The querent is very often infatuated and in need of some kind of help to put things into perspective. Actually infatuated querent’s make for very clear horaries, because they tend to be entirely focussed on the prospect of developing the relationship (often to their own detriment).

Of course we cannot moralise when we have been asked to give guidance to someone who is emotionally confused. On a one-to-one situation, I would never turn any querent away, if that person seemed to me to be sincerely asking for astrological advice (and I am talking about much worse moral dilemmas than this). I would also demonstrate such charts as case studies to other astrologers, and teach the rules to judge those kinds of charts to students. However, I still wouldn’t want to involve myself in a public forum discussion on that kind of chart which comes from another astrologer, because I couldn’t be sure, in that situation, whether it was wise to get involved in any way. You have asked for opinions and I can only give you mine, knowing that it is completely personal to me. I wouldn’t have a problem with it being on the forum.

As for the signification, any genuine relationship horary has the 1st house assigned to the querent and the 7th house assigned to the person that they are emotionally engaged with. This includes sweethearts, spouses and lovers, whether the lover is emotionally or legally free or not. If that person is married, or has other interests elsewhere, then the 7th house and its ruler will describe that. The wife or husband is usually signified by the planet that is in close contact to the 7th-ruler, and the state of the marriage is shown by the planets involved, and the kind of contacts they have between them. 7th-ruler in the 5th house, or 5th-ruler in the 7th, describes the relationship as intended to be a ‘not-too-heavy’ affair (at least in the eyes of the other party); but in any one-to-one emotional situation, or practical negotiation, the signification cuts across the 1st and 7th house axis.

Hope this helps with the flow of the discussion,
Regards
Deb
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Deb, thanks for taking time to add your comment- I really and genuinely am interested in what other Astrologers think and how they approach such situations- not whether they'd answer a specific kind of question but rather if they would deicide to delineate a chart cast upon a question that they consider to be "inappropriate" in any way (again- drastic examples aside )! What we will or will not find as an inappropriate question will I'm sure drastically vary from one Astrologer to another but the bottom line is- how far can we go and how far each of us is ready to go when faced with questions regarding things/actions that are opposed to our own system of values whatever the the question may be about (and it could be about anything).
Therefore, I do find your answer to be very helpful and it also opens some new questions for me as well.

Tanit's post makes a lot of sense to me as well, I was actually expecting to find a comment of such kind which is exactly why I have decided to start this topic- not because I disagree with her approach but quite the contrary- because I wanted to share my view with her and the others and because there are surely things that i would start scratching my head over only, oddly enough, I didn't think this was one of them! How could have I- I see such questions and hear such stories on daily basis. It has, obviously, got a lot to do with the mentality of the people I'm sorrounded with and their life style/stories.
Today I spoke to three different astrologers about this and said that I wasn't sure if I should have posted that chart in the first place but I don't think any of them actually understood what (on Earth) I was actually talking about! I think that the main impression when it comes to such situations here is, more-or-less: "What difference does it make if someone is already married? The love should always win!" Smile For most people, the things are as simple as that! And the reality only supports it- casual extramarital affairs are very common and marriages are obviously taken less seriously than they used to be. And, logically- a situation in which a person is asking about the prospect of having a relationship with a married man doesn't sound as outrageous to most Astrologers over here as it obviously does to some of the Astrologers who have expressed their opinions here so far. For most of the Astrologers i have spoken with - it's only one of the ways to start a relationship that might/will eventually evolve into a marriage or, in less optimistic/ambitious version- a benign sexual affair. And that's it! They got used to it and, apparently- so did I! Smile
And, while breaking a marriage (or a steady relationship for that matter )still does sound pretty harsh and, like Tanit has rightly pointed out- involves many additional problems , as much as I've tried to force myself to see it in a different light I'm aware that I'm more then "cool" when hear such questions! I am a very liberal person but I don't think it has got anything to do with it (because, apparently, you don't even have to be liberal to see it as a perfectly normal thing Laughing )- it' has simply got plenty to do with my environment.
It's strange, actually! Confused
But still, like I said- there's more than one situation that might trigger a reaction like Tanit333's and, while I can't change the fact that as long as I'm willing to delineate charts of people who don't think that some things are necessarily bad, I'll probably see such questions as "normal" too - I would like to know what an astrologer who doesn't support, say, abortion, would say if the Querent would ask him to advise her on whether to do it or not. oddly enough, two of the astrologers I have spoken to today- said that they would feel rather uncomfortable if they'd have to read charts cast upon such questions. And to be perfectly honest- i don't think i'd be either- not because I think they're doing something bad (who am I to judge, after all!), but because I would not be comfortable advising a person who has decided or is re-thing doing that! At the same time, I'm pretty sure I could never do it, but- I'm not them! From that standpoint, i completely understand the impulse to say that "having interest in someone else's spouse" is bad- we don't like to be involved into readings and conversations about things we personally would not approve of but the thing is- what we do or do not consider to be appropriate is, obviously, a completely different story! It's a strange, strange world! Smile

Thanks for the input on the 1st/7th axis!
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just take divination and giving people advice very seriously. I have been asked seedy questions before (even by close friends), and I am not afraid to tell someone when I feel a question is inappropriate. And I will refuse to answer questions.

This is all a personal choice, but I know that I would want no hand in something like this - encouraging someone to break up a marriage, of which children are involved (a family). To me, assisting someone in committing a crime (i.e., will I succeed in robbing this bank?) isn't much worse than a question like this. But, again, this is only my opinion. I was raised to put other people's feelings first, and I will never understand why someone would be so selfish as to pursue a married man, and possibly destroy people's lives in the process.

And, to be honest, if this man is willing to cheat on his wife, why is he worth pursuing in the first place? If they do begin an affair, who’s to say he won’t cheat on the querent later on and hurt her as well? It benefits no one.
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have thinking about this one since yesterday.Yes,you cannot know what people are going to ask but when they do, do you owe them a duty of care to help themselves at the expense of others?

I see the words priest and sanctimony mentioned followed by some moral relativism. If you are an astrologer then you are a professional like a priest or a doctor.If your patient has a STD they would not harm themselves by sleeping around so would you advise them to do just that?

I do not propose stoning women for adultery but advising them to find a single lover instead of being a homewrecker seems like reasonable advice to me.Sorry but you did ask.

Matt

ps I am no saint myself but don't tell anyone will you Secret
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And another thing that plagues me is that people put a lot of trust (and their hopes) into astrologers. When they come to you for advice, you should remember that your words have consequences on these people's lives. They often take whatever you say very seriously, so you should too. If you encourage them to do things that are unhealthy, as I think this is, what does that say about you and your credibility? I'm not trying to get all Dr. Phil, but people who pursue married men should rethink their life in some way. Do they have poor self-esteem? Why do they look for relationships that are not stable, or for flings, etc.? I would think of referring someone who asks such questions to a therapist.

These are just things that I consider before I hit "send."
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reality is that most of these charts show that the querent ought to back off because the hoped-for relationship is not as idealistic as they assume it will be. I spend a lot of time bursting romantic bubbles, because the horaries very often show no future or no interest from the man being asked about, or a great deal of pain and upset in the situation advancing. Even so, I think that I offer a very valuable service.

I would not judge a chart for something that offended my own sense of morality, but it is hard to define what really offends me. I take a dim view of extra-marital affairs, but I do know that desire can lead to despair, and I sympathise for anyone who feels trapped, confused or in need of advice. For me, I can tell when someone is honestly wanting some kind of guidance and direction, as opposed to someone who is wanting an affirmation of what they want to hear/ an account of what they should do to get what they want more easily. The latter really offends me. People asking questions and expecting easy answers really offends me. They don't get past my 'sniff test'. Trouble is, my 'sniff test' only works for my own charts, which is why I take a more guarded approach in forum discussions.
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Tanit



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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I spend a lot of time bursting romantic bubbles, because the horaries very often show no future or no interest from the man being asked about, or a great deal of pain and upset in the situation advancing.


It's interesting because, unlike other chart types, I rarely see a good romantic chart (they are quite rare). This is true regardless if a male or female is asking the question. I guess they wouldn't come to astrologers for advice to begin with if things were running smoothly. There are so many idealistic people out there asking, "when will I meet my soulmate?" and I have to wonder if they understand the reality of relationships at all.

In my experience, it is pretty easy to tell if someone is into you or not! Do they call you or ask you out, and keep wanting to see you? That might be a hint. If they avoid you, but stare a lot... maybe there's a reason they avoid you, and so what if they stare?! Actions speak louder than words. I know everyone isn't the same, and some people are just shy, etc. But even that is not hard to figure out.

I just wish more people had common sense.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Tanit333"]
Quote:


I just wish more people had common sense.


Confused

And what has Love got to do with common sense crying


PD
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Tanit



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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know, "we are all fools in love." We are wandering off topic, but maybe divorce rates would be lower if people did have more sense. I'm probably jaded, but believing in fairy tales, and fated love encounters often only leads to disillusionment and disappointment. How many people can say that they even found their soulmate, if there is such a thing (and I don't think that there is)? I'm sure we've all received these types of questions, and, before we even pull up the chart, know what it's going to say. People need to quit watching the romantic movies/reading the trashy novels and be a bit more realistic about love, is all I’m saying.

We may not be able to control who we love, but we can control our actions, or in beginning unhealthy relationships based on superficial feelings - such as the person who wants a trisk with a married man. Sick
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Aldebaran



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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am still a novice astrologer, but i am a fairly experienced reader as well as being a rootworker. As such much of the kind of work we do operates in these moral grey areas much of the time.

However, I judge each case on its own merits - and I never project my own morality onto another. They are coming to me for a service, and whilst I do practice within the bounds of my own personal ethics - I do believe each case is unique. Human life is complex and rich, and whilst its all good and well to have pristine moral standards - in reality people do have affairs, people do cheat and worse - all for varied and complex reasons.

I think the example of a doctor advising someone with an STD that matt23z gave before is an excellent example of this issue. A doctor who thinks someone with an STD is never going to have sex again is an ignorant doctor. For a doctor to get into a moral assessment of such a persons life and then to give medical advice based on that is, in fact, failing as a doctor. A good doctor will know that human beings will have sex - and that such a person is likely to have sex again. As such it is his responsibility to council and then make sure that this person does so responsibly and as safely as possible - limiting risks, whilst taking the reality of the situation into consideration objectively, dispassionately and realistically.

Similarly, someone coming to me for divination advice or magical aid in the case of an affair or something else elicit - I will rely on my skill as reader and assess the situation. Why does the person want to do this? Sometimes there are valid reasons. Often the person is going to go ahead with this anyway. So i try to council and if they still want to go ahead, and if the chart/cards/other divination tool indicate likelihood of success - i will try to help them do so in a way that limits harm to themselves and others. My job is to help my clients, not to judge them.

However if I see that this persons intentions are sinister, rather than simply misguided or morally ambiguous I will tell them so and decline if I feel that this would make me complicit.

An example more specifically related to astrological tradition that springs to mind: many classical astrologers were employed to advise regarding waging successful warfare, were they not? I think its safe to say that war is usually deplorable - yet, astrology offered aid in these matters. Why? Because sometimes war is justified, or necessary - or simply inevitable. Confused
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And what has Love got to do with common sense


Love as a deep sincere desire is one thing. The selfishness and self-centered desire of so many of these questions is another matter. True feelings of falling in love leaves a person feeling out of control and helpless. Selfish desire looks for help in getting what and who is desired.

I haven't said a single astrological thing here. I'm not even sure if I said much of anything at all.
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AquaStella



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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk:
Quote:
I haven't said a single astrological thing here. I'm not even sure if I said much of anything at all.


You said it all. Astrologically too. The astrologer can often see from the horary chart whatever it is that motivates the querent, by the position of lord 1, the position of the Moon, their dignities, receptions and aspects. He/She can also see what the querent is trying to hide, the true purpose behind the question and how sincere the querent really is about it (check radicality and considerations before judgement, among other things).

For example, a male querent asks "when will I get married?", and the chart tells you he is mostly concerned about his status, he doesn't really want to marry his fiancee, they don't really love each other, and he is engaged in secret "love affairs" with other women he doesn't care much about either. The chart confirms he will get married in such and such time units (though the timing is unclear) but will not be happy.

So, should the astrologer report all the information in the chart, or just give a short answer: "You will get married in a few years or months."

??? Confused Sad Confused Secret
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