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When asking about a friend

 
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wintersa



Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 29

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject: When asking about a friend Reply with quote

A good friend, somewhat skeptical but open-minded about astrology, gave me permission to use whatever astrological techniques I liked to shed light on a troubled romantic affair. If I ask a horary question independently (not upon direct request), am I represented by the 1st house, my friend by the 11th, and the relationship partner by the 5th (turned 7th)?
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Greenwich UK

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not quite sure I get this. If your friend wants advice from you then your friend is the querent and is signified by the Lord of the first. If she is asking a sincere question you should be able to help. If she is asking out of idle curiosity or a wish to "test" astrology then it will probably be futile.

Regards

Matt
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wintersa



Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 29

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Matt! I'm sorry for being unclear. It is a close friend, who has been asking myself (and another friend) for advice about this relationship for some time now. (It's been drawn out and painful, sadly.) I try to listen and offer as good of (non-astrological) advice as I can, as his longtime friend. However, he knows that I study astrology and has listened avidly to any astrological descriptions I've offered of the situation. He's provided me with the data for both of them, and is open to any help I might be able to offer on that front. However, he knows I'm only a student and far from being an expert. I've only begun to learn about horary recently, and I thought I might try to cast this as my first chart. I'm the one who asked the question. It wasn't motivated out of a desire to test astrology, but more out of concern for my friend, who is in a bad state at the moment (and facing some big decisions), and, of course, curiosity and the desire to be helpful if possible.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since she is aware that you will/could/can cast a Horary chart for a question regarding her relationship status- her asking the Question would have been a lot better idea. maybe she wasn't aware of how the things work as people are used to handing their data written on a piece of paper to an Astrologer and letting him/her draw and delineate the chart whilst in Horary, the Querent participates in the process more actively!

Still, if the Question has already been asked and if it were you who formulated it- you are the Querent and your main concern is your close friend and that would be the radical 11th! So, your friend gets the cusp of the 11th as her (derived) Ascendant and you start counting the houses from there. Since the Question is about her relationship, you should examine the radical 5th as well- as that is now your friend's 7th (it's the derived 1st/7th axes)!

The other option, of course, would be to give the Asc to the friend but that should be done in cases when the Astrologer decides to exclude him/herself from the question but, truth be told, I don't see any reason to put the things that way given that the friend had the opportunity to ask the question herself.
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wintersa



Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 29

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, both of you! I suspected that would be the right way, and the significators for everyone seem very apt. I would post the chart here, but I know that the forum has had plenty of relationship horaries lately. Smile

Only one quick question more, if I may... the signifiers of the two lovers (Venus for her and Mars for him, appropriately!) don't form an aspect with each other, but the planets' rulers are both conjunct a third planet, Saturn (yours truly). Can that counterbalance the lack of aspect between them?

Thanks again.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wintersa wrote:
Only one quick question more, if I may... the signifiers of the two lovers (Venus for her and Mars for him, appropriately!) don't form an aspect with each other, but the planets' rulers are both conjunct a third planet, Saturn (yours truly). Can that counterbalance the lack of aspect between them?

Thanks again.


I believe that this is a question about the dispositors of their rulers (yes, the planet's rulers) and that can hardly compensate for the lack of aspect between the significators. If the chart is of a recent date, I'm guessing that we're talking about Mercury and Moon in which case, the Moon, the co-ruler of the Question conjunct Saturn does not bode well - I wouldn't call Saturn "Yours truly" but rather "as cold as ice"! The Moon is delicate, the Saturn is cold- the Moon rules the question and, therefore- seeing it close to the Saturn, expecially applying to is- does not bode well in a romance question. if, on the other hand, it has started separating from it, it might be an indication of a period of "cooling-off" in the past! All, this, of course, if we actually are talking about these planets. But do make sure to examine the movement of the Moon as it might be telling a lot!
Generally, since they are already in a relationship or have been, you should check if there is a separating aspect between the main significators- they might be a good indication of a separation and then check if any other planet could bring them back together by translating or collecting their light.
The Moon's last separating aspect should also be descriptive of past events.
Check if there are any applying aspects between any of the main rulers to another planet as a planet applying to another planet just might be suggesting that a person is applying to someone else. Not necessarilly, 'tho. Check the dignities and see if there is mutual reception between the rulers. A VOC Moon suggests often suggest that the situation will keep the current shape (no more future actions), significators in late degrees or VOC could sometimes also announce a change i.e. the end etc.

Everything else will pretty much depend on the construction of the Question! Wink


Last edited by aglaya on Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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wintersa



Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 29

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Aglaya. When I said "Saturn (yours truly)" I meant literally: Saturn signifies me in the question, flanked by both their dispositors. Smile

She is Venus, disposited by the Moon (applying to Saturn); Venus sextiles Saturn and Mercury (his dispositor). He is Mars, disposited by Mercury, in separating aspect to Saturn and Venus. Does the Moon still co-signify the question if she is also the dispositor of one of the parties? (Perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on the dispositors? Forgive my rookie mistakes...)
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
Posts: 1138

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wintersa wrote:
Thanks, Aglaya. When I said "Saturn (yours truly)" I meant literally: Saturn signifies me in the question, flanked by both their dispositors. Smile

She is Venus, disposited by the Moon (applying to Saturn); Venus sextiles Saturn and Mercury (his dispositor). He is Mars, disposited by Mercury, in separating aspect to Saturn and Venus. Does the Moon still co-signify the question if she is also the dispositor of one of the parties? (Perhaps I'm putting too much emphasis on the dispositors? Forgive my rookie mistakes...)


yes, well, like i said- the dispositors applying to each other cannot be taken as a sign of perfection. They're helpful, telling their part of the story but what we need in order to conclude that there is a perfection- is an applying aspect between the main significators or Translation/Collection of light that can bring them (back) together if they have already started separating from each other or aren't even in aspect aspect. COL or TOL sometimes suggest the influence of a third party- a helper. That said- the application of their dispositors to your ruler now that we have you in the chart as well Smile is probably descriptive of your influence and efforts but in order to conclude that you can actually help them get back together or whatever you actually would like to see happen- your ruler should be a Collector or Translator of their light; their planets should both be applying to it (as it is the slowest of the three). Or, we'd have to see one of the significators separating from Saturn and the other one immediately applying to it- that way, Saturn could also be a potential helper as it would be establishing a connection between the rulers!

So, concentrate on the main significators and the Moon first. Additional rulers are Venus (her feminine side, her physical body) and Sun (his physical side and his body) - any contact or reception between them can be useful in examining the nature of their affection for each other or fondness for each other on a more superficial or, if you like- physical level.

The Moon is always the ruler of the question and a very important planet. In situations when it is already occupied (being the Querent's or the Quesited's ruler) the things are a bit more tangy and the Astrologer should examine all the placements and signs carefully and let the chart lead him/her towards the final conclusion! Wink


Last edited by aglaya on Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wintersa

As you are a new astrologer I would advise you not to try to cast charts concerning your friends' concerns. If they trust you and want your help, recommend that they think through what it is they want to know, and that they then ask you to judge the chart for the question they have asked.

If you start off asking questions about situations that you are not in the centre of, you won't get good, clear charts, and you will end up with all sorts of ethical issues about how much you should pass on regarding information that has not been specifically asked for.

It might help you to read this article, which shows how important it is for the querent to think seriously about what is being asked, and that it is asked by their own free will.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_questions.html

Regards
Deb
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Deb's advice...

Having said that, there's just one point I'd make here and that relates to this being a chart about someone else's relationship.

Quote:
Only one quick question more, if I may... the signifiers of the two lovers (Venus for her and Mars for him, appropriately!) don't form an aspect with each other, but the planets' rulers are both conjunct a third planet, Saturn (yours truly). Can that counterbalance the lack of aspect between them?


If you had asked "Will my friend finish his relationship and go out with me instead" then we do need to find Lord 1 in the chart. But that isn't what you asked!

Given that this question is "What is going on in my friend's relationship?", it is extremely unlikely that Saturn is playing the role of Lord 1 (i.e. the astrologer herself). It is much more likely that Saturn is playing the role of something directly related to the relationship. E.g. limitations, restrictions, an ex, etc. In asking about your friend's situation, which does not directly involve you, you would not expect to find yourself implicated in the chart in any way whatsoever.

I hope this helps.

Keren
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wintersa



Joined: 11 May 2009
Posts: 29

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Keren, and thank you, Deb (both of you) for taking the time to reply. Fortunately, this isn't a situation in which I have any romantic interest at all -- it is really just a friend of many years. I agree that it seems frivolous to pry into the affairs of other people, and maybe I shouldn't have cast the horary at all. I'm far from experienced in this branch of astrology, as I think I mentioned -- this is my first attempt at horary, though I'm currently taking a professional course in traditional astrology. The reasons I thought the chart might be radical and worth looking at is because, as I alluded, myself (and another friend, though residing in another state) are really deeply implicated, advicegiving-wise, in the situation -- my friend asks for detailed advice and feedback on basically a daily basis, and is really struggling emotionally with the situation. I've also been somewhat of an advocate for his partner in the attempt to keep them together, as I'm sort of rooting for them. If I've been a busybody, it's at least by engraved invitation Smile!

So given the situation, since I was the person to technically ask the question, I assumed that I'd be represented by the first house and my friend by the eleventh. (This seemed to work out perfectly, as the eleventh house is ruled by the same sign as his natal Sun, and I -- if I am shown by the ruler of the first house -- am also found in his turned 11th.) Is this the correct way to use the chart, or should I maybe not have drawn it in the first place? It does seem v. descriptive of the situation, but maybe it's a bit of grace extended by the universe to a beginner...
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