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Will she really buy me an RV
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't use Louis's book, even though there are a lot of good tips in it. I have a problem with the modern planets as significators, and with some of his assignments, like the 8th house being procreative sex.

BUT - I do agree on having a clear idea of how to proceed before one does the chart - almost always. Once in a great while, the chart seems to want to tell the story itself, though.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:

Hi Olivia

Are you sure this is written in Lilly's work? Could you give a reference because I'm not aware of where he says that.
Many thanks
Deb


Hi Deb, hi Olivia,

still a little more abstract - Lilly, CA, p. 157:
"Generally, the Signe ascending and the Moon are Significators of the Ship, and what Goods are in her, the Lord of the Asendant of those that saile in her: . . . "
But Lilly speaks of ships only and his understanding is not so abstract to speak of other things or places, vehicles for example.

And ships are very special: you can't leave them at sea!

Johannes
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't it be more adequate to look for a connection between Lord 1 or the Moon and Lord 2?

Or even better between Lord 1 or the Moon or Lord 2 and Lord 11 (2nd of the 10th, fortune and objects of the mother)?

Johannes
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not something the mother owns. It's something she's planning to buy for her daughter.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit, I agree with your advice on getting the signification thought through before approaching the chart; that’s often the best approach to problems of unusual signification.

Tanit wrote:
Moving vehicles (which I would consider a recreational vehicle to fall under) are 1st house.


This is often said because Lilly demonstrated questions about missing ships as a first house concern. But this was because there were concerns about whether the lives were lost, and the first house signifies life. Ships or moving vehicles are not naturally a 1st house matter.

Tanit wrote:
I always took the 5th as gifts in general, but the 8th is specifically gifts FROM others.


But surely all gifts come from others? The 8th house is other people’s money and assets but it is such a negative and unhappy house that I find it hard to relate its signification to gifts from others. Very often it is safer to consider the Moon as the object being sought or traded, but in this case, the mother being signified by Venus, which is the 5th-ruler, and the Moon applying from trine from the exaltation of Venus and in the querent’s 2nd, seems to give a clear picture of the mother providing the goods. The only concern is that the Moon opposes Mercury (7th-ruler) in the 8th, and Jupiter (querent) retrogrades back to the opposition of the Sun (in the 8th and 8th-ruler). This could show confusion, cross-words and some disappointment. Also, the 2nd-ruler is Saturn which is squared by Mars – so it looks like there could be some arguments involved in this situation. I wonder if this could involve family members, or where she wants to live, since Jup rules the 3rd with Uranus in it, and Mars rules the 4th. Overall I think there is a good chance that she will get something in the end, but she should keep her expectations realistic and not expect that this will fall into her lap without some difficulties involved.

I’ve just seen Yuzuru’s comment. I’d go along with something like that.

Re the Lilly quote (Johannes, the ref you gave was the same as that which Olivia gave) – just to say that I think it is unreliable to take that quote and make a general principle out of it, because that’s definitely not something that is found in Lilly’s examples. In many situations there are good reasons why the sign on the cusp, and the ruler of the cusp, should be kept together as reinforcing factors for signification. There are many houses and many reasons that could be used to argue the signification of a gift, and I have a note that some classical authors attributed gifts to the 11th house (although more mention the 5th) - but here I think that Olivia’s first instinct was right; so it’s not necessary to over-analyse the signification, and which house is the best for gifts, because it always depends upon context, and this chart shows us the way to go.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:

Re the Lilly quote (Johannes, the ref you gave was the same as that which Olivia gave) – just to say that I think it is unreliable to take that quote and make a general principle out of it, because that’s definitely not something that is found in Lilly’s examples. .

Hi Deb,

I really didn't want to make a plagiarism! Of course it is a qoutoation of the same page, but it is not the same quote. My point was to show that Lilly himself (CA, p. 157) had already formulated expressis verbis the abstraction which Olivia developed in her text. Thus I only wanted to help Olivia in the first part of her argumentation.

But I fully agree with you that Lilly made his statement for ships only.

Johannes
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johannes, it's not plagiarism to quote somebody in a forum conversation - that's why we have quote buttons.

Now, if I discovered the answer to life, the universe, and everything, and posted it here, and you copied it and published it in a book under your name - that would be plagiarism.

It won't happen, but just saying... Wink

Quoting what somebody else said during the course of a conversation in the same forum - that's fine. We have to around here or we'd all have to scroll back four pages somtimes!

I'm all headachey today but if I get a chance, I will try to find more support for my 'person gets the planet, thing gets the cusp if they are both signified by the same house' theory once I can bear to put my reading glasses on again.

In the event, we're not really talking about that in this horary though - I think it's a straight case of house 5 and a gift.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update: I blew this one but good. I realise it's not quite the end of January, but as soon as her mother got the investment return, she immediately cut off all contact with my friend (who found out from the mother's brother when mother wouldn't answer the telephone when my friend called because her mother was in possession of some documents my friend's daughter needed in order to get employment).

My friend has been in horrible financial straits this month, and Mum didn't want to give her $100 to keep the lights and water from being disconnected, nor did she wish to feel guilty over having no intention of keeping her promise to buy an RV for her.

I probably ought to have gone with a different house for the RV instead of treating it as a gift, or that opposition really put the kibosh on everything.

And some people just plain suck. Not very professional of me, I know, but - that was just nasty.
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 693
Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit wrote:
the astrologer should have a true understanding of the nature question in general


Was this question really "Can I trust my mother to fulfill her promise"? The querent has been "disappointed" before, so maybe the RV, the gift, was a red herring and looking at the relationship between mother and child would be more appropriate?

Jupiter and Venus (10th) are in aversion (see House 6 thread : ). Jup in 2nd is fitting, and so too is venus in 7th of enemies since it has become clear that the relationship is difficult, not a happy one. Yet venus is in exultation and terms of jupiter, appearing to show real maternal love and affection and this reception is returned by the moon while jupiter remains indifferent.

Moon trines venus in one degree but opposes mercury, L7 1st. Who is the person (or persons, gemini,) who got in the way?

Mother's money, L11, mars is in detriment of jupiter while moon exults mars. Mars in 6th, in its joy , malefic house and face only.. was there enough money?
Almutem of 10th, saturn is also in detriment of jupiter.
And moon's last aspect is to oppose saturn before conj uranus on 3rd cusp?
So maybe that is the way to get the "right" answer, with hindsight.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I realise it's not quite the end of January, but as soon as her mother got the investment return, she immediately cut off all contact with my friend (who found out from the mother's brother when mother wouldn't answer the telephone when my friend called because her mother was in possession of some documents my friend's daughter needed in order to get employment).


That is inexcusable! Sick Deb mentioned issues with other family members getting involved and a possible disappointment, and that does seem to have happened here. Hopefully this isn't the end of the matter though.
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
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Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And thinking about it, it's interesting that the 2 almutem rulers of 10th tell such different stories. Is this a reflection of gemini on the 7th cusp? A dual-faced enemy who is actually the mother? Mother/daughter relationships are often dualistic in nature with jealousies and power plays interfering in how love is shown. I get a sense of the mother having a public, venus, and a private, saturn, face in respect to the relationship with her daughter.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right about that, I think, PallasAthene - the public/private face. Money's not an issue for mum, it wasn't even before the investment paid out.

But she didn't bother to even send a Christmas card. And then my friend having to find out from her uncle about this, and get him to try to intercede to at least get the documents so her daughter could get a job - that's just so painful.

I also think the question might have been more 'can I trust her to...', but even then we still come up with an exalted Venus for mum.
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PallasAthene



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
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Location: Bristol, UK

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venus and saturn are both peregrine? So neither "maternal" face is performing correctly.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2949
Deception - when one planet is located in the domicile or exaltation of a second planet, the second planet being in the detriment or fall of the first. This condition creates more complicated circumstances than the 'rejection' because in the deception one party delivers, the other not. In one way it is a relationship where two people are hung up in eachother, almost like a karmic imbalance. The two misunderstand eachother and get into knots. It is difficult to figure out the dialogue that the planets share. It is like a love-hate relationship. The one significator enjoys the admiration of the second, but there is no mutual reprociation. The second planet is in a representation the first signifcator abhors. Impulse and embarrassment intermix. Example: 1) Mars in Gemini or Virgo with Mercury in Taurus, Cancer or Libra 2) Jupiter in Libra, Capricorn or Aquarius with Saturn in Gemini, Virgo or Capricon.

Seems to describe the jupiter/saturn relationship.
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Venus isn't peregrine - okay, I use Dorothean triplicity rulers and Egyptian terms - that puts it in its own triplicity and term, plus it's in 7. 7 can indicate opponents, and that's certainly how her mother has seen her, especially after the investment paid off. And mum's got the stronger planet. UGH.

I do agree with you on the Jupiter/Saturn thing - oppositions are nasty, especially to planets in the planet's fall or detriment and that one's going both ways here.

I do believe the question itself was okay, but I probably should have looked at it from a 2/8 perspective, would the mother indeed spend any of her own resources on her daughter?
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handn



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 509

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Olivia

Very interesting chart, and an unpleasant situation for the querent.

My question is, in this chart do you think there's any case for taking the Moon to be a co-significator of the mother rather than of the querent?

At the very least, the Moon and Jupiter in the 2nd house show radicality, but they are separating from a previous conjuntion and are in separate signs. Even if the Moon is seen as co-sig for the querent, isn't it interesting that these two are in the same house but separated and separating?

Regards

H.
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