skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
A Correct Prediction: the NYC buiding strike, 1991
by Robert E. Zoller
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
Astrology and Cosmology in Early China: Conforming Earth to Heaven, by David W. Pankenier
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

Skyscript Astrology Forum

How many Astrological Methods do we need?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 3955
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No we don't put the planets in different places,


Well actually we do if we use a different zodiac or house system Wink .

Quote:
but we do choose the moment we ask a horary question -


How much choice is involved? We decide to ask an astrologer a question yes? Whats the difference between going to someone to cast the I Ching coins, read the runes or Tarot cards? We decide on a 'moment' that seems significant to us. However, in horary we have no control when the astrologer might open our email or letter for casting the chart.

Quote:
and the planets are always moving. The answer I get if I ask tomorrow morning may be completely different to the answer I'd get if I asked this afternoon.


Its not just the planets. Life is always moving! Life is change, process and transformation. If I do a Tarot spread tonight it may give me a completely different interpretation from tomorrow. At the same time if the answer is basically 'no' you often find a different but similar answer by the stars or the cards/I Ching.

Quote:
My astrology friend is a PhD in mathematics, and he vividly dissents the idea of ‘coincidence’. He even says it can be proven that there is – mathematically - no such thing as a coincidence. It’s interesting that in German coincidence is called “Zufall”, literally meaning “that which falls to you”. So with I Ging or Tarot, how the cards or sticks fall mean ‘what falls to you’.


As for mathematics...have you heard of Kurt Godel's theorem?

Quote:
In every consistent formal system, there always exists a proposition which is neither formally provable nor formally disprovable, yet it’s true. Kurt Godel 1930


Note this is a theorem not a theory. Its something all mathematicians accept.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=limits-on-human-comprehension

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus


Last edited by Mark on Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
TC



Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia - maybe, a soul (child) participates in its experience-choices; which may well mean “blindly going in this vs that direction.”

About wrong charts that work – my opinion, astrology is the mathematics of thought; a gift; momentum finds its path; the path may be round-a-bout, yet it still resonates a mathematical balance, a gift, and one who can perceive the intrinsic pattern can somehow contact the pulse of the moment. Quite un-scientific.

However, transcending this, are not wrong charts simply wrong?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
3D



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 125

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your two (well, three in the meantime) interesting posts. Let me pick up two points.

Quote:
What about 'wrong charts' that still seem to work?


I have very firm opinion on that but we can of course debate it. Smile
To me, this is lousy technique coupled with self-delusion! I have to put it that drastically because more often it happened to me (and my astrologer friends) that when a chart reading with a client just didn’t make sense – including metagnosis, when several events didn’t fit -, it was the wrong chart.

Quote:
This is why I keep coming back to the consciousness of the astrologer. I believe the astrologer has to have total faith in their technique.

And the astrologer off doing what while all this happens? Surely, without an astrologer to interpret the symbols implied in all this there is no astrology?

Without the consciousness of the human mind, no insights. That’s absolutely understood.

Your other remark, that the astrologer has to have total faith in their technique, I agree 100%. - no, 1000%! This is so true from my own experience but it’s also very puzzling and alarming! (Hello self-delusion). But to me it shows that Astrology is more than the application of a technique. When reading a chart, I have to free from all thoughts (and especially doubts) about technique. Just have to concentrate on the moon and not the finger.

René


Last edited by 3D on Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, in horary we have no control when the astrologer might open our email or letter for casting the chart.

The tossing of the horary I Ching coins and the laying of the horary Tarot cards is when we send the email or post the letter. Our action gets the divination ball rolling.


.............................................................................................


It's really not about astrology at all, but about the astrologer. The astrologer is the true subject of this thread (and of so many more).

We go where the ideas mesh with our imagination. We start with a fantasy about reading the sky, but as our involvement grows through learning technique so grows identification with our ideas as parts of ourselves. We align with those who see similarly in order to gain mutual strengthening and encouragement, and in becoming dutiful group members we learn to depreciate our individual experience. What I see in these sorts of discussions is support for the group's experience. Traditionalist groups are particularly prone to such an individual-suppressing belief. It easily goes unquestioned.

The more we lose sight of the beginning in individual fantasy, and the more we engage the ego – the consciously acknowledged self – and its ties with other like-minded sorts, the stronger becomes the rational function and its grip. The rational mind takes over and the ideas we hold about astrology become more important than the images that inspired us. The ideas become further empowered as a common language between members: The group and its language pushes aside the individual and his or her experience of images. If we want ease of Internet discussion and books that lie side by side on a common ground, then we do need the group language. But for some strange and sad reason the common language is treated as the more valid and desirable end. We value the unified Internet group experience over individual experience. Individual experience is frowned upon as narcissistic babbling.

Images within the mind of the astrologer, quietly shaped and focused with his or her well-practiced method and procedure, lead to vision. A unified group thought belief system doesn't.

But no, I can't prove it. Neutral
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 3955
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's really not about astrology at all, but about the astrologer. The astrologer is the true subject of this thread (and of so many more).


Thanks Kirk. Very succinct and so true.

Mark
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
3D



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 125

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi to all

Thank you so much for your contributions. I’m amazed. What has started with my trivial question about techniques has turned to the much more fundamental questions about the ‘moment of astrology’ and the rôle and consciousness of the Astrologer.

At the same time, I’m a bit perturbed if some of you (especially Kirk) seem to put the only emphasis on the Astrologer. What about the planets? Is it not important that they are physically there at the ‘moment of astrology’? Without any action from the Astrologer? Unlike Tarot or I Ging, where humans put them in place. In astrology, humans can only chose the moment (in horary or by birth), they can’t move the objects of astrology, whereas in I Ging or Tarot, they can move stick, coins or cards???

The great lesson that astrology teaches me is also a lesson in humility. I’m not so important, I can’t move the planets. If I want to move something, I toss coins or lay cards……..

René
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 866

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk, I think you need to become a sky omenologist and a novelist!

Wrong charts: Don't work for me. Had the horrible experience once of putting AM for PM or vice-versa for a client's horary - fortunately it was a client I deal with on a regular basis, so she didn't hesitate to tell me that I was completely off the beam.

When I redid the chart for the right time, it DID work. And thankfully it's only happened the once.

I'm extremely leery of children choosing birth times, etc., as that gets into territory we can never verify. And it also gets into the old chestnut of free will. Now, free will works in the West, because a lot of western folks were brought up Christian, existentialist, or new age, and all those paradigms posit absolute, or close to absolute free will.

For those of us who've never been Christian, or existentialist, or new age, there are some problems. Yet Jews and Muslims have still been good astrologers throughout the ages, as have other people who come from worldviews where the fate/free will thing isn't so much argued over - it's just a non-issue.

I can't believe in God in English - there's just too much reification and baggage that goes with the term, and it's a noun. But - the part of Jewish foundatinal myth I can agree with is that once upon a time, long ago and far away, God had a hand in the world. But now it's time for us to grow up, so God doesn't. But God, not being completely without compassion, did leave us the stars, if we can but read them, for guidance.

Thing is, whether you believe that, or free will, or whatever - you should still be able to be an astrologer. And I've seen so much speculative philosophical stuff written in books as if it's absolute fact that all astrologers agree on and - ugh! It's not.

Maybe that's the group think?

Individual experience does come into it. Why do I have so many natal clients with a Saturn-Mars opposition across the ascendant? The aspect isn't that common, but I do - disporportionately. Why have Clelia Romano and I both found that the conjunction of the South Node to personal planets often indicates severe child abuse? And the North Node isn't a whole lot better.

It's not written down in the tradition that I'm aware of - but it's still there.

Even with astrology, there's a whole lot we can never know for sure. And maybe different astrologers attract different sorts of clients?

I honestly have no answers there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 3955
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At the same time, I’m a bit perturbed if some of you (especially Kirk) seem to put the only emphasis on the Astrologer. What about the planets? Is it not important that they are physically there at the ‘moment of astrology’?


Hi Rene,

No offence but that approach is too literal for me. Partly, because I dont see astrology working on the basis of Newtonian physical cause/effect at all. Astronomers are fond of telling us that the Surgeon has more gravitational impact on the birth of a child than the planet Jupiter. Yes the stars and planets are 'out there' as actual physical points of reference. However, we dont relate to them astrologically as lumps of gas and rock the way science tells us they are. We see their actual cycles as symbolic principles which mirror ourselves and the world around us.

Focusing on the reality of the planets is like focusing on the reality of a piece of countryside in creating a work of beautiful landscape art. Yes the countryside is there. However, its the vision and creativity of the artist that makes the painting possible. Moreover, no two artists will present the image in exactly the same way. Separated in space the parallax view is different while in time the weather/light/scene will have changed. Doesn't this remind you of astrology?

Quote:
In astrology, humans can only chose the moment (in horary or by birth), they can’t move the objects of astrology, whereas in I Ging or Tarot, they can move stick, coins or cards???


As someone that has actually used and studied the I Ching for nearly 30 years I have a real problem with this kind of logic. The implication again is that astrology is superior? Different yes but superior? Surely, that depends on the practitioner reading the cards /I ching or horoscope? Again the cards and I Ching are part of the physical universe too. However, they are only useful once we understand how to work with them by understanding their symbolic meaning. They are all simply tools or fingers pointing at the Moon. None of these tools are the Moon.

Ok I throw the coins (or burn yarrow sticks), or read Tarot. Yes I select the card. However, I dont consciously select the outcome. Its the same for someone asking a horary question.

Quote:
The great lesson that astrology teaches me is also a lesson in humility. I’m not so important, I can’t move the planets. If I want to move something, I toss coins or lay cards……..


Fair enough. Actually though I have met a couple of really arrogant astrologers. Shocked

The I ching is unique because if you ask it a trivial question it will usually tell you off in no uncertain terms! Unfortunately, people can do all kinds of self indulgent things with horoscopes. Horoscopes dont talk back! As a spiritual self development tool I have found The I ching better than astrology. It really inculcates values such as modesty, patience, generousity etc. There are so many ways a person can go off the rails in astrology. With the I ching the experience is like communiting with a real person or oracle.
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus


Last edited by Mark on Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:00 pm; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At the same time, I’m a bit perturbed if some of you (especially Kirk) seem to put the only emphasis on the Astrologer. What about the planets? Is it not important that they are physically there at the ‘moment of astrology’? Without any action from the Astrologer? Unlike Tarot or I Ging, where humans put them in place. In astrology, humans can only chose the moment (in horary or by birth), they can’t move the objects of astrology, whereas in I Ging or Tarot, they can move stick, coins or cards???

The great lesson that astrology teaches me is also a lesson in humility. I’m not so important, I can’t move the planets. If I want to move something, I toss coins or lay cards……..

Let's consider the possibility that the coins and cards too are always 'there' in a sense and always in motion, that we only stop them – freeze them in place – when we toss them or lay them. Or rather, that which lies behind yet also within the coins and cards is always in motion. We play at stop-and-go with their physical representatives.

Likewise, the planets are always present, always in motion. With the coins and cards we need to imagine their eternal presence and motion. But the sky, stars, planets, Sun and Moon show us the eternal motion and presence through their physical presence. The primary motion – the sky's motion from east to west – never stops, so that even a planet stationary in the zodiac is still in motion. Constant motion. The astrologer seemingly stops the motion in drawing up a chart for a moment. The astrologer then possibly becomes enfolded within the halted images of the planets, stars and signs and can't look through them and out to the context. A lot of squabbling and insistent astrologers may be writing on the walls of a box.

It's a rather large issue. Confused


Last edited by ### on Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Estebon_Duarte



Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 130
Location: West Coast USA

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Astrologer is the key component. Wrong charts, "correct" charts w/ different methods and basic divinatory instruments (e.g.tarot) all rely on a couple of intrinsic components. First you must believe that prediction of future events is possible, and as a condition of that you must be disposed toward prognostication.
The birth chart of an individual usually will show if a person is a diviner or a scholar or a dabbler or what. If one practices traditional or classical astrology you must be objective enough to know if your chart promises such things as knowledge of future events, anyone can practice something, producing the intended results is another thing.
To take it even further you could call it what the ancients did, Dignification.
With that in mind I see how different zodiacs and techniques can yield the same results, still, even one with the gift of foresight needs a medium to express it and a methodology can help.[/i]
_________________
Western Predictive Astrology by Estebon Duarte Independent Researcher AMA MACAA
Natal Chart & Annual Solar Revolution Reports
www.organic-astrology.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks René. In Dutch we use a similar word for coincidence 'toeval'. I don't really have a problem with it and I still think it exists. I doubt if a child choses the moment of birth. Natural elements or on the other side Caesarean sections which depend on the decision of doctors etc. are stronger I think. Perhaps there is also something like 'divine intervention' which can be seen as the 'free will' of a 'supreme being'.

Quote:
Quote:
What about 'wrong charts' that still seem to work?


I have very firm opinion on that but we can of course debate it.
To me, this is lousy technique coupled with self-delusion! I have to put it that drastically because more often it happened to me (and my astrologer friends) that when a chart reading with a client just didn’t make sense – including metagnosis, when several events didn’t fit -, it was the wrong chart.
When the wrong chart 'works' I tend to think that the applied astrology is wrong. Probably too vague and flexible for different interpretation. I have read about astrologers who discovered afterwards they had been using the wrong chart when explaining it to a client. However everything seemed to have fit and the client left satisfied. I think there needs to be some falsifiability in astrology. Yet allowing for a small margin of non verifiability because there is always some unknown human factor in astrology. But in general the astrology must 'work'. When I had just started with astrology I had an argument with my eldest brother who thought I was wasting my time with 'that nonsense'. "Predict something for me", he said provokingly. I looked in the chart and saw that Uranus was going to conjunct his MC the next year. He was unemployed then and I predicted that he would get a sudden change in job circumstances. Later I discovered that the MC was way off because I had used daylight saving time which wasn't used when my brother was born. Yet these changes in job circumstances came, he started following courses and got jobs through these Surprised .

I'm convinced that astrology works but not all astrology. It's difficult to know which is the correct astrology. We are humans dealing with humans. I heard about a story of a crime case where a witness a terrain guard had stated that his dog was never mistaken. The lawyer questioning him asked the guard if he himself could sometimes be mistaken. "Sure, I sometimes am mistaken" he replied. The lawyer then asked how he then could be sure if the dog might not be mistaken Smile .

Quote:
Part of the problem is that astrology is so complex one can always ascribe an outcome to different influueces in the chart. This is why I keep coming back to the consciousness of the astrologer. I believe the astrologer has to have total faith in their technique. Call it the 'Tinkerbell effect' if you like but once we become riddled with doubts it cripples our ability to make the magic work. I am experiencing a bit of that myself right now on house systems.

Quote:
Your other remark, that the astrologer has to have total faith in their technique, I agree
Why would doubt be a problem. I think some doubt makes a person more careful and more willing to research. Some doubt is as necessary as having a bit fear for a stunt man.

Concerning horary, since I don't know much about it I'm not in the position to judge it. It seems to be the achilles heel of a pure natural view of astrology. From a technical point of view the main difference with say Tarot is that if for example in two different rooms next to eachother a horary is done at the same time for the same question the chart will look the same and the answer would resemble if the same techniques are used (e.g. Lilly's). The chance that the Tarot cards laid down would be the same however would be extremely small. However there it may be possible to find a link between all these by which all stem from a natural source. Moreover studying a chart (whether horary or natal) or the Tarot (or any kind of divination art) seems to bring you in a sort state of mind where intuitively a connection is made with the other person/client. Without this, both arts could simply be performed by machines.

Quote:
Quote:
No we don't put the planets in different places,


Well actually we do if we use a different zodiac or house system .
I too think we don't put them in different places. It's just the position we look at them. The spider hanging on the ceiling sees the room from another perspective than the mouse down in the corner does, however it is the same room.

Quote:
Quote:
At the same time, I’m a bit perturbed if some of you (especially Kirk) seem to put the only emphasis on the Astrologer. What about the planets? Is it not important that they are physically there at the ‘moment of astrology’?


Hi Rene,

No offence but that approach is too literal for me. Partly, because I dont see astrology working on the basis of Newtonian physical cause/effect at all. Astronomers are fond of telling us that the Surgeon has more gravitational impact on the birth of a child than the planet Jupiter. Yes the stars and planets are 'out there' as actual physical points of reference. However, we dont relate to them astrologically as lumps of gas and rock the way science tells us they are. We see their actual cycles as symbolic principles which mirror ourselves and the world around us.
On this point I rather agree with René. While Kirk is right that much depends on the astrologer and much happens in the interaction between astrologer and the other person, this view could be subject to the often heared criticism that all astrology and divination is a variant of 'cold reading'. There indeed is such a thing as 'cold reading' and I believe this kind of criticism should be rather acknowledged than rejected, because then the astrologer can learn to discern what is really astrology and what is merely a psychological effect.

Perhaps there is something else we don't know yet and that cannot be explained by newtonian physics. We shouldn't give in too much to scientists' remarks that the gravity of the doctor or midwife is many more times greater than that of Jupiter and also of the Moon. Sure the Moon doesn't 'pull' on us individually but she excerts the gravity for certain on the sea. With the tides the sea goes up and down and within it all fish and other creatures. I think this also happens with humans. I'd say 'something' around us over the whole Earth is somewhat affected by the planets and we are within it. The moment of birth being the most sensible moment for us.

The drawback of a pure symbolical view is that one needs to be 'initiated' in it or one needs an astrologer to explain what is happening. However the relation of weather with astrology and the possible effects of astrology on animals and plants indicate that there should be something physically related and couldn't be explained from a pure symbolical view. Our emotions are in fact minutely small chemical reactions in the brain. Often these emotions appear blurred to us. Our culture in which we grew up affects that what we see or experience. For the one dreaming about a snake would mean the devil and for the other the cycle of life.

Note that Galileo Galilei rejected that the Moon caused the tides referring to this as magic or occult. Although he has another physical explanation for the tides, this example illustrates how the rejection of a phemomenon, based on the assumption that it doesn't correspond with another (usual) theory, could be done too easily.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/galileo/

article wrote:
Galileo argues that the motion of the earth (diurnal and axial) is the only conceivable (or maybe plausible) physical cause for the reciprocal regular motion of the tides. He restricts the possible class of causes to mechanical motions, and so rules out Kepler's attribution of the moon as a cause. How could the moon without any connection to the seas cause the tides to ebb and flow? Such an explanation would be the invocation of magic or occult powers.


I prefer the view of Ptolemy of humours etc. I think this view was always there with the medieval astrologers, notwithstanding their symbolic approach. Only with Rudhyar this view was totally rejected. I could never be a pure humanistic astrologer, rather a humouristic astrologer Smile.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However the relation of weather with astrology and the possible effects of astrology on animals and plants indicate that there should be something physically related and couldn't be explained from a pure symbolical view. Our emotions are in fact minutely small chemical reactions in the brain.


Oh my . . . You've explained away and so seriously diminished a huge part of your experience, your creativity, and your life. And astrology – it's thrown into the same battle. Let us all bow down to the scientists who measure chemical reactions in the brain.

It's absolutely disgusting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3127
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
“If one Astrologer uses the NAIBOD and the other the PTOLEMY key, then at least one of them has to be wrong”


Not necessarily - at least according to one astrologer. The way I understand Rumen Kolev's methods, when he works with a chart and primary directions, he checks the chart against known events to see which key works best for that individual. Sometimes it's Ptolemy, sometimes its Naibod, sometimes it's something else. Whichever it is, he sticks with that key for that chart.

But this is part of the hunt for precision. Do we need to be all that precise all the time? When one technique gives a timing that is years different than another, I think we need to do better than that. But "You'll marry at age 26" might be good enough given all the other events that have to occur prior to the marriage (meet someone, get to know him or her for a few years, set up some kind of finances etc). On the other hand being told, "You'll encounter health problems at 55" and they occur at 51 or 60 might be a bit problematic. Still the point is that the information give to us by Naibod and the difference in the information given by Ptolemy is one of timing only. The promise is the same. A certain amount of precision is valuable, but it isn't the most important thing astrology has to offer. Knowing about potential for health issues outweighs the importance of the dates of occurrence.

I also think that this hunt for precision obscures larger issues. Perhaps wrong charts "work" because astrology, by its nature isn't that precise. Including the outers there are only 10 planets, 12 signs and 12 houses (unless we load up the chart with even more stuff). That is very little to combine that will describe the human experience, so there is often more than one possibility in a given chart. Does Mars in the 7th mean divorce or a Mars type spouse? Or both? Our quest for precision ought to be to sort that out rather than fretting over Naibod or Placidus to find the exact date of the marriage. Perhaps precision in timing is overrated or we have a lot more work to do with more important things before we tackle that one.

I think broader questions are at least as worthy of our attention. Does the chart show us a map of our psyche? If so, how do we understand it with the chart? If not what does it do? Burying ourselves in technique sells books. It doesn't add to our experience, if we already have more than enough techniques to work with. Maybe we just don't know how to use what we have very well.

On the mundane forum a thread began with the observatioin that a whole bunch of astrologers "missed" WWII. This in turn resulted in the rejection of the technique, which resulted in a book espousing a new technque which resulted in more books based on that technique and so on. Meanwhile, a guy using the old techniques accurately predicted the war, and, if he is to be believed, he could not get his article published! So the entire astrological world has passed by the guy who got it right and we have a whole bunch of new stuff to work with that might not have been necessary in the first place or may not work any better than what it replaced. Whether it was or not is well beyond the scope of this little essay.

Find a system that makes you comfortable and stick with it. Experiment with other things a bit as you encounter them, if they interest you. If you're wrong at times so what? You're human. The hunt for perfection is only frustrating, and often counterproductive. Everything and everyone have limits including astrology and astrologers.


Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Quote:
However the relation of weather with astrology and the possible effects of astrology on animals and plants indicate that there should be something physically related and couldn't be explained from a pure symbolical view. Our emotions are in fact minutely small chemical reactions in the brain.


Oh my . . . You've explained away and so seriously diminished a huge part of your experience, your creativity, and your life. And astrology – it's thrown into the same battle. Let us all bow down to the scientists who measure chemical reactions in the brain.
Hi Kirk,
At first sight it might appear that I see humans and life just as a result of chemistry. Far from that, I'm not a supporter of 'physicalism' that believes that everything in life is ruled by physical processes and denying the spiritual. There's a very thin line between 'soul' and physical processes in the brain.

I think that soul is totally free from astrological influences and therefore feel for the view of Thomas Aquinas who viewed the astrology as affecting the body while the soul has free choice. He did acknowledge however that the effects can be so strong that free will is very difficult to maintain.

An astrology ruling over the soul through symbols is in my opinion far more fatalistic than 'physical astrology'. Sometimes modern astrology is even more fatalistic than classical astrology. According to some, a Pluto transit definitely means a transformation of the soul which cannot be avoided. On the other side classical astrology could warn people to be carefull when they are about 41 and shouldn't do hazardous things like jousting. The transformation issue is sometimes also used for something called 'astrological alchemy'. Transits are used in the transformation process of the soul. However interesting this may sound, the issue I don't like is that it denies free will of the soul. What if I just started astrology today only to discover that I missed great opportunities to conduct my transformation during a Pluto transit of a few years ago. Or I have to wait for the next transit.

The problem is not only that people want to control astrology like Deb explained, but also that some always try to find something astrological that allegedly is said to control us. I think that a smaller percentage can be attributed to astrology, the rest is due to social political economical natural circumstances and free will, perhaps part of this can be found through mundane astrology and we might be subject to these forces overruling our individual chart. This is how Ptolemy explains it in Tetrabiblos IV.10.
Quote:

Quote:
“If one Astrologer uses the NAIBOD and the other the PTOLEMY key, then at least one of them has to be wrong”


Not necessarily - at least according to one astrologer. The way I understand Rumen Kolev's methods, when he works with a chart and primary directions, he checks the chart against known events to see which key works best for that individual. Sometimes it's Ptolemy, sometimes its Naibod, sometimes it's something else. Whichever it is, he sticks with that key for that chart.
I'm not sure if I can totally agree with this. It resembles a bit the recent idea (made possible by software?) that there are several house systems fitting to different people, according to this idea there are 'Placidus types', 'Campanus types' etc. If there's a distinction to be made then there would be the purely symbolical view of 1° of right ascension equals 1 year and the view that directions should reflect the year. The key then depends on the technical view of the astrologer. This may not simply be an attempt to be more precise, but rather a search for a theory that appeals to you.

In that case it's indeed better to stick with it:
Quote:
Find a system that makes you comfortable and stick with it. Experiment with other things a bit as you encounter them, if they interest you. If you're wrong at times so what? You're human. The hunt for perfection is only frustrating, and often counterproductive. Everything and everyone have limits including astrology and astrologers.


Last edited by Eddy on Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3127
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how you get from here:

Quote:
If there's a distinction to be made then there would be the purely symbolical view of 1° of right ascension equals 1 year and the view that directions should reflect the year.


to here:

Quote:
The key then depends on the technical view of the astrologer. This may not simply be an attempt to be more precise, but rather a search for a theory that appeals to you.


Mars directed to Jupiter is Mars directed to Jupiter regardless of what key we use. The key tells us "when" - nothing more no matter what reasons we may come up with for using a particular key. We can, of course, look for a theory we like in any subject for any reason. That seems to be beside the point. Claiming one key has to be correct in all instances and therefore every other key is necessarily wrong is just as easily a search for an appealing theory as any other. The real problem, as I see it, is trying to square all of astrology with the scientific-materialist worldview. If there is more than one astrological way to skin a cat then it is the scientific viewpoint that may need to change, not astrology.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated