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I am simply not flexible enough to adopt Bernadette Brady?s suggestion of picking a house system for each occasion rather like selecting different tools from the garden shed for different tasks.


When you think of it ... Let's all seriously give it a try now ..... Why not? Carpenters, artists, and craftsmen have their different tools for different needs. Writers try different approaches and use out-of -the-ordinary words and phrases. Why should astrologers be so limited with such tight boundaries of 'Yes' and 'No'? Are we afraid of appearing weak and vacillating? Yes, I think that is a major part of it. We feel pressure to be tough-minded and he-man strong in our convictions. We want to look like we've been pumping intellectual iron. . . :???: . . . Whatever.

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Do they not use a number of different house charts when drawing up a nativity in Jyotish?
Recently I came across a method of adapting the 5 degree rule for houses that occupy only a few degrees. You divide the degrees by three and any planet in the last third is held to belong to the next house. I have been reading a lot of different books lately and can't find the source of this at the moment but it seems sensible.

Matt

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matt23z wrote:Do they not use a number of different house charts when drawing up a nativity in Jyotish?
Many Indian astrologers use the 'sign chart' (r??i-cakra) and the 'house chart' (bh?va-cakra) side by side, the latter being calculated with Porphyry (here called ?r?pati) cusps but using the cusp as the centre of the house. Other supplementary charts used are mainly divisional (~harmonics).

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Many Indian astrologers use the 'sign chart' (r??i-cakra) and the 'house chart' (bh?va-cakra) side by side, the latter being calculated with Porphyry (here called ?r?pati) cusps but using the cusp as the centre of the house. Other supplementary charts used are mainly divisional (~harmonics).
Thanks Martin,

Thats very interesting. So I take it the so called 'sign chart' (r??i-cakra) is a whole sign chart while the 'house chart' (bh?va-cakra) is a quadrant system?

I wasn't aware Indian astrology also used a quadrant system like Porphyry. Are you suggesting the Porphyry cusps are the centre of Whole sign houses? How does this actually work?

I have heard of the so called Navamsha chart which I believe is based on a division of the chart using the ninth harmonic.

I was wondering what house system Indian astrologers use for horary? Is it simply whole sign or does it ever involve sign division?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Thanks Mark.
That matter of very ?stretched and squeezed houses?? as you call it is precisely why I set up this thread. Not the more arcane issue of erecting charts at the Poles. Its the practical astrological issue of real natal or horary charts from latitudes below 65N that concerns me most. Philosophically, I think the time based nature of Placidus makes it the most attractive quadrant system
Reading your first post more attentively and the name of the thread I realise I totally overlooked your intention of the thread. I guess it was because of my first post I gave the thread a polar twist. :oops:

Although the problems are interrelated the issue you discuss is also one that troubles my mind too. When I have a look at houses I also find it troublesome that (usually) two cusps can be in one sign or vice versa and more cusps can be in one sign further north. I therefore also would prefer an equal system.

Some already remarked that every house system is in basis equal. It depends on how you look at it. Campanus, which I find a very esthetic system because it uses a coordinate system in the usual mathematical sense, is equal in the division of the prime vertical and the north point as the pole of the coordinate system. Horizon system is similar but with the pole of the coordinate system tilted 90? degrees and therefore dividing the horizon in equal pieces of 30?. Regiomontanus divides the equator in equal parts but still uses the north point. Placidus divides every path parallel to the equator for the division.
Philosophically, I think the time based nature of Placidus makes it the most attractive quadrant system.
Most astrologers call Placidus a time system discerned from the other house systems being space systems. Over here http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph. ... c226863998 several definitions of calculating Placidus are given (the whole ?6 gives a tecnical overview of the houses). I consider only the third option as a 'real' time system. But as it is written there a planet can rise in the west at high latitudes. In this thread http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewt ... 5f01f9f0f2 I calculated an extreme example in which the Sun might rise in the southwest, culminate in the east and set in the north west. This can be explained as the planets go up and down in declination during time. At sunrise in spring the Sun will be of lower declination than when the Sun sets. In other words during spring the Sun seems to spiral upwards like a screw because of the combined movement of the Earth's rotation and the increasing declination. In autumn the reverse is the case and the Sun spirals downwards.

Because of this 'spiral' movement the mundane parallels wouldn't litterally be parallels. For example, last week the 20th Sun was in parallel aspect with Venus. The Sun was on its way back to the south for a month, spiralling downwards. Venus was still increasing in declination, spiralling upwards. Instead of being on one parallel for a moment this method would rather see it like crossing spirals.

Another 'time' option perhaps might be the instantaneous motion at the time of birth. However this would also give crossing parallels instead of parallel parallels and in fact the former shouldn't be called parallels at all.

I think most astrologers and computer programs measure the positions according to the parallels. These then are circles parallel to the equator and perpendicular to the meridian. To me this indicates that then a positioning in space is made rather than in time. It resembles time closely but it isn't time actually. So every house system is a space system (almost litterally) observing from different points of view, the positions at a snapshot moment frozen in time.

To go back to the unequality, it is only unequal when you look at a certain division through another reference system than the division was made in. To me it would seem most logic to look through the same 'eyes' in which the division was made (e.g. like the mundane aspects). However if you want to remain 'loyal' to the ecliptic then all these systems would give unequal systems. Only the Equal divisions of either the Ascendant or the MC (and their whole sign derivations) would apply, the former being the oldest.
I cant help wondering if a lot of astrologers end up rejecting/choosing systems for such subjective criteria.
I think this is very true, I too am influenced by personal influences. Maybe this is unavoidable in astrology. Perhaps there are many roads that lead to the astrological Rome.
Do they not use a number of different house charts when drawing up a nativity in Jyotish?
There are I believe 16 divisional charts (vargas) in Indian astrology the navamsha being the most used and most known. Another house system is the Chandra lagna. Using the Moon's sign as Ascendant ( perhaps when birthtime is unknown).

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MarkC wrote:Thats very interesting. So I take it the so called 'sign chart' (r??i-cakra) is a whole sign chart while the 'house chart' (bh?va-cakra) is a quadrant system?
Yes.
I wasn't aware Indian astrology also used a quadrant system like Porphyry. Are you suggesting the Porphyry cusps are the centre of Whole sign houses? How does this actually work?
No, they are the centres of the quadrant houses. The cusps are the same as in a western Porphyry chart, but the first house begins halfway between cusps 12 and 1 and ends halfway between cusps 1 and 2, etc.
I have heard of the so called Navamsha chart which I believe is based on a division of the chart using the ninth harmonic.
Yes.
I was wondering what house system Indian astrologers use for horary? Is it simply whole sign or does it ever involve sign division?
In my experience, those who use quadrant houses (as described above) use them for natal and horary work equally.

I am leaving early tomorrow for Nottingham, where I may not have frequent Internet access, so if I go a bit quiet from now on it's not due to lack of interest. :)

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No, they are the centres of the quadrant houses. The cusps are the same as in a western Porphyry chart, but the first house begins halfway between cusps 12 and 1 and ends halfway between cusps 1 and 2, etc.
Hi Martin,

Sorry but I am having real trouble getting to grips with this. :???:

The house boundaries are separate from the cusps?

Lets have a simple whole sign example. Say I have 0 Taurus rising. The first house begins at 15 Aries and ends at 15 Taurus? :-?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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MarkC wrote:Sorry but I am having real trouble getting to grips with this. :???:

The house boundaries are separate from the cusps?

Lets have a simple whole sign example. Say I have 0 Taurus rising. The first house begins at 15 Aries and ends at 15 Taurus? :-?
No, we need to know both the Asc and the MC. Dividing the ecliptical arc between them by 6, every other point you get will be a house boundary (bh?va-sandhi) and the rest will be the house cusps (bh?va-sphu?a) or house midpoints (bh?va-madhya). The latter are identical with the Porphyry cusps.

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Hello Martin,

Thanks for that. I was wondering if you could recommend any particular books on Indian astrology that set out more information on the houses?

I guess I am finding it hard to understand a quadrant house system where the house 'cusps' appear different from house boundaries. Are these points in the houses seen as places of particular power for planets to be located?

Thanks

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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MarkC wrote:Thanks for that. I was wondering if you could recommend any particular books on Indian astrology that set out more information on the houses?
The first one that springs to mind is the Sripatipaddhati ('Method of Sripati'). There is an old (1937) English translation by V. Subrahmanya Sastri:
http://openlibrary.org/b/OL3010661M/Sripatipaddhati-%3D
Perhaps one of the Indian astrological publishing houses or Internet bookshops would be able to produce a copy, or at least a photocopy of the book.
I guess I am finding it hard to understand a quadrant house system where the house 'cusps' appear different from house boundaries. Are these points in the houses seen as places of particular power for planets to be located?

Yes, they are. Planets are also considered more powerful when applying to the cusp (by primary motion) than when separating from it.

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MarkC wrote:
I guess I am finding it hard to understand a quadrant house system where the house 'cusps' appear different from house boundaries. Are these points in the houses seen as places of particular power for planets to be located?
Martin wrote:
Yes, they are. Planets are also considered more powerful when applying to the cusp (by primary motion) than when separating from it.
I dont have my copy to hand right now but this issue makes me think of the section of Robert Hand's booklet on Whole Sign Houses where he discusses Firmicus.

If I recall correctly(?) Hand suggests Firmicus may have been using equal house cusps within whole sign houses.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly