This is the answer to the Mystery Rectification Chart

If you don?t want to know the final answer, please, don?t read further.

The original test was published by the astrologer Alexey Dodsworth in the link below:
http://www.constelar.com.br/revista/edi ... cacao1.php
and
http://www.constelar.com.br/revista/edi ... cacao1.php



The time of birth as measured by the astrologer - 19.8.1966, 1h38m10s AM - Rio de Janeiro, RJ - 22s54, 43w15.

The Birth certificate had a time of 2 AM, if you like it better.

Very thanks for everybody who played, and I hugely appreciate your participation and the considerable amount of effort that member of this forum invested in this question.

Best regards to all, and I hope the exercise has been a good learning experience.

Hi Yuzuru,

Thanks for the quick reply. Aha so the time was 1:38:10. With my preference for 2:00, I at least agreed with the municipality registration . So I rather should have taken the 1:30 birth time with +/- 20 Gemini MC as reference, with this second choice I was only 8 minutes off. With a start from a six hours span I feel quite amazed of having one of the two times so close to the real one .

Unfortunately I don't read Portuguese but with a quick look it seems that the participants did the same as we did but with the given birth certificate time of 2:00 as starting point.

I have a question.
Since I made the calculations on the Trutina Hermetis I got more insight about how this technique looks like from a pure mathematical point of view, I made a table and wrote down some comments. Could I use those data based upon this person's birth to post a comment/thread in this forum? Neither the person nor his events will form part of my post. I think it would be interesting for others to know how the 'inner clockwork' of the Trutina looks like.

If you wish so.

I remember that when I took the test, I got a fair good result with trutina, but it was off by a few degrees.

Thanks

According to my calculations the real time is exactly between two possible 'trutina moments' I got. But I used an alternative trutina based upon MC+90?.

The time 1:38:10 gives Uranus(and Pluto) sesquisuare AS/MC and transiting URANUS was repeating that aspect at the time of the car accident. I guess I was careless in not including the 1:35-1:40 range in addition to 1:48-1:54 range(where the rising degree squared the Uranus-Pluto conjunction and Saturn conjunct MC).

FWIW, I agree with Alexey Dodsworth.

I am cracking up here seeing that my proposed time of 1:24:48 AM compares to Jussara Fields who in the original contest using a birth certificate time of 2:00 AM and mother's memory of 1:15 AM to 2:00 AM came up with 1:24:08 AM using the Trutine of Hermes. Both answers were the closest in both contests (in round 1 for Yuzuru's context). Eddy's 2:00 AM was also within the range for round 1.

For round two, Matt at 1:35 AM had the closest standalone time to the measured 1:38:10 AM time. Eddy added another window of 1:26 to 1:35 which was also very close. Rene used a similar Saturn-MC direction for the grandfather's death and came in at 1:24 AM. I believe these were the closest answers to 1:38:10 AM within 15 minutes and apologize if I left anybody out.

Matt - you said your rectification was 'based on the degree eclipses prior to the tragedies affecting natal nodes and planets.' Curious to see exactly what you did if you have time to post. Also do you use mean node or true lunar node? I have been using mean node with good results.

For the 1:38:10 AM time I found no primary directions for the three events. But these measurements I did find:

19-May-1976. Death of grandfather. c. tr. Mars conj MC. Mars rules the 11th, or death of male ancestors.

18-Jan-1979. Mother moves out/Father's suicide. c.s.a. Moon conj IC.

16-Aug-1986. Car accident. c.s.a. Moon square ASC.

The solar arcs are less than half a degree away (e.g., 6 months error) but not exact.

========================================

Since on a separate thread both Animodar and Trutine of Hermes was used, I thought I would present results for these methods. I didn't use them in the contest and only looked at them just now.

Animodar

Syzygy is the New Moon of 16-Aug-1966 at 23LE09 separating from a Libra Ascendant by diurnal motion, chart cast for Rio.

Lord of the syzygy is the Sun who at 23LE09 falls at only 21 minutes of degree from the actual MC of 22PI48. This is pretty good.

But check this out. Sun falls in bound of Mercury/Leo at 4LE28'42" for the syzygy. At birth Venus, ruler of the angle the syzygy separated from moves to 4LE27'54". This is within one minute of degree for Mercury's position at the syzygy. Moreover at birth the Moon 4LI04'25" applies by sextile to Venus; same degree emphasized. I don't believe there is any evidence that this type of connection is proposed by Animodar theorists.

What I did was to borrow from Margherita's observation that CieloTerra also includes the ruler of the angle the syzygy separated from (here Venus). Venus at birth matches the position of the the bound ruler of the syzygy found at the time of the syzygy.

The real problem I have with this technique in practice is how does one choose whether it is the ASC or MC degree which is closest to the degree of the ruler of the syzygy (or angle syzygy separates from)? Especially if one is working with an unknown Ascendant.

Trutine of Hermes

Recent thread on this subject:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... es&start=0

Eddy has spent some time on this, though using MC+90 instead of the actual Ascendant I believe skews the results. Eddy, tell me what you think of what follows:

Working from a birth certificate time of 2:00 AM which is what the original contestants had to work with, note the following:

ASC = 19GE26
Moon = 4LI17

Finding day of conception:

Method mentioned by Papretis: Start with 273 days before birth. In this case, Moon waxing below the horizon means the pregnancy lasts more than 273 days. So start with November 19, 1965 and work backwards until one finds a Gemini Moon

Method of Lilly with an example by Deb:

First make a note that 1966 divided by 4 is not an even number; so a common year (e.g., no leap year).

Step 1. Find # days of the child's mansion.

With Moon below the horizon, compute: Moon - Ascendant
184.2833 - 79.4333 = 104.85 = 3 signs 15 degrees
Lilly Christian Astrology p. 502, find entry in left column closest to 3 signs 15 degrees. It is 282 (column 3) for the Moon below the horizon.

Step 2. Find the conception date.

At this point I am going to depart from Lilly's table because as wintersa pointed out sometimes the table can be a bit confusing. So I just subtract 282 days from August 19, 1966 which yields November 10, 1965 (using Excel). Moon makes its Gemini Ingress at 12:56 AM on Nov 10th so we are in the ballpark.

Step 3. Match the natal Moon to Ascendant of the conception chart; vice versa.

I am not sure which way people iterate, but what I did was to advance the time of the Nov 10th chart cast for Rio until the Ascendant reached 4LI17 which is the Moon's position for the 2:00 AM August 16, 1966 birth certificate time and date. That pushes the conception chart to November 11, 1965, 2:45:09 AM with the Moon now at 14GE56. Adjusting the birth certificate time/Ascendant of 2:00 AM/19GE26 to 14GE56 pushes back the rectified time to 1:39:40 AM. Moon also moves back a bit to 4LI05 but I leave that alone though it appears some folks might continue to iterate. The 1:39:40 AM time by Trutine of Hermes is very close to the 1:38:40 AM recorded time. But it doesn't match the 1:24:08 AM time given by Jussana Fields said to be produced by Trutine of Hermes. So I don't know how Fields got to 1:24:08 AM.

Anyway, this is a pretty good result with Trutine of Hermes, though as has been pointed out one needs to have the correct Ascendant first.

Having worked this example out both with Animodar and Trutine of Hermes, I wonder if both were used jointly. It seems that feedback from each method can assist the other. Then there is rectification by accidents which is what I prefer.

Doc,

I checked in the ephemeris and it was true node.Good question though. It had occured to me too.

I got the idea from Ronald Davison's "Technique of Prediction" If you know the exact birthtime you can predict something will happen after (or rarely before) an eclipse if it falls at say, the degree of the asendant. By treating this like an equation you reverse it by going back from the incident to the previous eclipse. When I looked at the 1hr35 I was convinced "This is it!" and posted. I had avoided reading other posts up until then but when I saw someone else had put 1hr24 to 1hr35 I looked again and wasn't sure if I had applied my idea consistently but I am pleased nonetheless.

Matt

matt23z wrote:Doc,

I checked in the ephemeris and it was true node.Good question though. It had occured to me too.

I got the idea from Ronald Davison's "Technique of Prediction" If you know the exact birthtime you can predict something will happen after (or rarely before) an eclipse if it falls at say, the degree of the asendant. By treating this like an equation you reverse it by going back from the incident to the previous eclipse. When I looked at the 1hr35 I was convinced "This is it!" and posted. I had avoided reading other posts up until then but when I saw someone else had put 1hr24 to 1hr35 I looked again and wasn't sure if I had applied my idea consistently but I am pleased nonetheless.

Matt

Congratulations Matt for arriving so close to the true birth time.
One thing is not clear to me: you claimed that "1h35m based on the degree eclipses occur prior to the tragedies affecting natal nodes and planets" and now you add "the degree of the Ascendant".
I checked all the relevant eclipses and I saw that only for the death of his father the relevant Lunar Eclipse on 16 Sep 1978 is on 23 Pis33' conjunct MC. Is this is the eclipse you based your rectification?
Following Ronald Davison, I checked also the converse eclipses and I found out that for his accident (converse date 21 Aug 1946) the relevant Lunar Eclipse on 8 Dec 1946 16Gem03' conjunct Asc.
I also checked the New Moon/Full Moon including the relevant converse lunations and I see nothing.
Could you please give us some details on which eclipses you based your rectification?
I hope that the next test will include much more than 3 events. Rectifying with only 3 events is almost like shooting a target in a dark room.

Hello,

Next time, please, at least 7 Events... and let there be a next time.

Have fun!

Central Scrutinizer

Better luck next time Central.

Hi Dr. H.

I didn't know there had been a Trutina thread in a remote past. Yesterday I posted my calculations in the recent Rectification thread
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 2&start=45 and gave some technical remarks. I only discovered the technical features when the Mystery chart came. I'm not sure if I understood your question but when I read a calculating method in a book it seemed to use mean values. I therfore used the astrodienst online chart calculator to find those values listed in the other post. I think it resembled step 3 The methods have much in common but I think it's the best to verify it again. I don't think that the 1:24AM Trutina is correct. In the calculations I saw that the intervals between each possible Trutina is about 52 minutes.

It is striking how close the Ascendant based (normal) Trutina got close. I have a problem with the use of the Ascendant as a basis. With the rule Ascendant at conception is position of the Moon at birth then conception is not possible at some northern latitudes were signs like Gemini, Cancer, Sagittarius and Capricorn (70?North). I therefore used the MC+90? cusp. Although there is a semiarc method for polar horoscopes, this can't really be used in combination with the zodiac because you then get 2 or 3 ascendants sometimes. I made a table of how this looks like in http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4555

This one was far of the recorded birth time. Furthermore if the Trutina is totally correct, a 'wave' pattern should be visible in the birth times.

With the real birth time it struck me to see the progressions. Progressed Sun was square to the Ascendant 3 months before the accident at age 19. Progressed Moon was almost exact on the Ascendant! A great stimulance to use progressions.

Eddy

I understand your motivation to use MC + 90 instead of the Ascendant because of the failure of various house systems at high latitudes. But keep in mind the developers of the Trutine of Hermes technique (Babylonian, Hellenistic, Medieval), probably had few or no clients at those high latitudes. It's quite possible that a technique like this simply fails at extreme latitudes. That's a guess on my part as I haven't experimented with the Trutine very much. As I said, I prefer rectification by accidents.