House rulers

1
Hello everybody!

I'm glad to be in your company. I have a question to ask. Since most planets rule two houses, what do I do in a nativity when I want specific information about something? For example, If I have a Scorpio Ascendant and Aries at the cusp of the 6th, Mars will rule both my health and the illnesses I'm likely to suffer from. Is that acceptable or do I use a different ruler for either of the two houses?

2
You use the same ruler for both. But there is also another planet that rules Aries, and that is the Sun, by exaltation, so it aids you.

You can also check triplicity, terms and decans, to see what other planets concur.

At last, and this is important, does this Mars of yours aspect either the 6th or the 1st? If it does aspect one but not the other (traditional aspects only) then the one it aspects is more affected by him. Also, you should look the placement by itself, a Mars in Scorpio would say more about your AC and conversely so would a Mars in Aries say more about diseases; this same Mars in Taurus would indicate problems to your health due to 7th house affairs, while showing your general constituition at the same time, and a Mars in the 10th could show that your diseases may originate from excess at work, or even that you work in something related to diseases (doctos, pharmacologist and so on)...

3
Thank you very much PFN for replying.

Mars aspects the 6th, not the first. But shouldn't I keep Mars for my Ascendant ruler, since it is also the triplicity ruler of Scorpio? And if Mars were in Aries (which is not the case), then I would take him as the 6th house ruler, but where would that leave the Ascendant? Since Mars has more essential dignity in Scorpio than in Aries, I would be forced to pick the term or the face ruler as ruler of my Ascendant. Can I do that?

4
From Ibn Ezra in The Beginning of Wisdom (though there is a lot more in The Book of Nativities and Revolutions), and a whole lot on the ailment of Saturn throughout the signs in BoW.

The Sixth House indicates chronic illness, slaves, and maids, small animals, prison, lies, and slander. The first ruler of the triplicity denotes illness and defects, the second signifies the slaves, and the third whether they are useful or harmful.

You might want to look at the first triplicity ruler for illness. With the ascendant, regarding health, the first triplicity ruler is the first third of life, the second triplicity ruler is the second third of life, and the third - the last.

From the same source.

Hope this helps.

6
Since most planets rule two houses, what do I do in a nativity when I want specific information about something? For example, If I have a Scorpio Ascendant and Aries at the cusp of the 6th, Mars will rule both my health and the illnesses I'm likely to suffer from. Is that acceptable or do I use a different ruler for either of the two houses?
I'd like to pass along an interesting way to look at this. First assuming the ruling planet is not in a sign that it rules, combine the meanings of the house the planet occupies and the house it rules. Ignore the house you are not looking at. For example, Virgo on the 2nd, Gemini on the 11th Mercury in the 7th. Looking at the native's wealth we see that he might obtain money from the spouse. Looking the native's friends we see that the spouse comes from his friends or the native marries someone formerly thought of as a friend or friends introduce the prospective bride and groom, i.e. they will not meet at work. You would not say that the native obtains wealth from friends.

The ASC is a bit trickier since it has to take priority. Mars gives us information about the native and everything else is secondary to that. So the ASC and its ruler will always give us information about health regardless of where the ruler is placed. Normally t doesn't matter what else it rules, but in this case the meanings will be combined. You cant' get away from it.

However if another planet occupies the 6th that does not rule the 6th, it will contribute to the information given about illnesses and may be more informative than the ruler placed elsewhere, but only about the illnesses not about the native's overall health.

This gets trickier still if the planet ruling two houses is in its own sign and therefore probably in one of the houses under scrutiny. That will have to wait for another day.

Tom

7
OK, let's say I keep the same planet as ruler of both houses and work my way around that. Do I want this planet strong or not? Since we are talking about the ruler of the Asc, yes, I want this planet both essentially and accidentally strong. But this planet also rules a malefic house, in this case the 6th or with Libra rising, Venus also rules the 8th house. Do I want this planet on the Midheaven for example where it will have occasion to act or not?

8
That's going to depend on what shape the planet is in and what kind of essential dignity it does or doesn't have.

Would I want an ill-dignified or even peregrine malefic in an angular house? No, I wouldn't, not even if it was my ascendant ruler.

But there's a lot you need to look at if you're looking at illness. Tom's right, too - if you have any planets in 6, you need to look at those, too. Any planets in 1?

Here's another, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me, but Oskar Hoffman (whose name I have probably mis-spelt) is wonderful on illness and treatment, and he says to look at the planet afflicting the ascendant or ascendant ruler - this makes a lot of sense. What attacks the ascendant attacks the health.

In other words - it's often complicated.

9
OK, let's say I keep the same planet as ruler of both houses and work my way around that. Do I want this planet strong or not?
In natal astrology I would almost always want the ruler strong by essential dignity. The 6th and 12th present a problem with this however. In horary or medical astrology a strong planet in or ruling the 6th would indicate a strong illness. I don't think we want that. In natal astrology a strong planet ruling the 6th could indicate that any disease will be overcome (not forever obviously). A lot depends on what else is going on in the chart. Also an important meaning of the 6th is servants or people we hire. We especially want the people we hire to be strong even as we prefer our illnesses to be weak.
Do I want this planet on the Midheaven for example where it will have occasion to act or not?
You have to differentiate between accidental and essential dignity. Mars in Libra on the 10th is essentially weak and accidentally strong. In other words he can more easily carry out his malice. Mars on the MC ruling the 6th might mean servile work or it could mean diseases encountered as a result of work, e.g. working in a hazardous career. A good aspect from a strong Jupiter would alleviate some of the bad stuff.

Tom

10
RE: the original question

I found this in Astrologia Gallica Book 21 page 65 (Baldwin translation)
" ... if a planet is ruler of two houses and located outside those houses, their meanings ar resolved into the meanings of the house in which the ruler actually is, or are at least affected by that meaning. Thus, the ruler of the first and eighth in the seventh, and in adverse celestial state, foretells the native will be killed or wounded by an open enemy, and so on. But attention should be paid to the nature of the planet and its analogy with the meanings of those houses, as well as its celestial and terrestrial state, for a planet in an adverse celestial state -- and especially when malefic by nature -- is of no value for the fortunate houses it either occupies or rules over, but instead denies, hinders, or brings misfortune to the good they signify. However if such a planet is in an unfortunate house it clearly promotes the evil of that house and not the good of the other house it may rule over, and so no resolution takes place -- unless perhaps unfortunate of the rulership meanings into the meanings shown by the planet's location."
Read that carefully and a few times. A few definitions are in order. Celestial state is essential dignity plus aspects and antiscion. A planet with lots of essential dignity but say square Saturn or Mars in detriment is less good or has a worse celestial state than the same planet with a nice trine from a strong benefic. Morin didn't break down essential and accidental dignity. He combined some features of accidental dignity with essential dignity and called it "celestial state."

Terrestrial state has to do with the house the planet occupies. It is in good terrestrial state in an angle; it is in poor terrestrial state in the 12th.

Morin was big on the effects of a planet if its meaning was similar to the meaning of the house it occupied. For example The Sun signifies honors. If the Sun is in the 10th house, the house of honors, it was particularly strong and more likely to indicate honors than it would indicate other things the Sun rules. Venus has an analogy with relationship, so if she is in the 7th house she is more likely to indicate relationships than say other Venus things like luxuries. In the second she is more likely to indicate luxuries than relationship. Morin did not believe a planet should indicate everything it was associated with everywhere in the chart. He took issue with Ptolemy and others on that point. The Moon cannot be your wife, your mother, your sister, and your daughter no matter where it is in the chart.

So he's saying you may (I don't get the impression this is absolutely necessary to do this), combine the ruling planet with the houses it occupies and the house it rules. He gives the example of Lord 1 and 8 in 7. The 7th house is house where the meaning of everything else is resolved because that is the location of the ruling planet. House 1 is the individual and his body. House 8 is the death of the individual and this is resolved in the 7th: the body is killed by an enemy or as a result of an enemies action. Why not the spouse doing the killing? This is where the analogy comes in. If the ruling planet is Venus a planet with an analogy with the wife, it could well mean death by the wife (at times an open enemy if there ever was one). If the ruling planet is Mars, the open enemy is likely to be a soldier or if the native is a policeman, a violent criminal.

But what if it is Mars? Mars has no analogy with the 7th. Mars is a malefic so Mars denies, hinders, or brings misfortune to those things in the 7th house, e.g. marriage. Mars is the natural significator of divorce. So
maybe the native gets lucky and only gets divorced rather than meet a violent death. Morin has this habit of almost always using the ASC, and thereby denoting the native, when he gives examples of these combinations. It doesn't always work so neatly when the ASC is not involved.

I think in cases where these things cannot be combined that we should simply ignore that facet of the delineation and instead simplify by reading the house and its ruler separately and not try to combine them. Notice, too that not every planet can rule houses 1 and 8. So not every combination is possible for every planet.

Tom

11
RE: the original question

I found this in Astrologia Gallica Book 21 page 65 (Baldwin translation)
" ... if a planet is ruler of two houses and located outside those houses, their meanings ar resolved into the meanings of the house in which the ruler actually is, or are at least affected by that meaning. Thus, the ruler of the first and eighth in the seventh, and in adverse celestial state, foretells the native will be killed or wounded by an open enemy, and so on. But attention should be paid to the nature of the planet and its analogy with the meanings of those houses, as well as its celestial and terrestrial state, for a planet in an adverse celestial state -- and especially when malefic by nature -- is of no value for the fortunate houses it either occupies or rules over, but instead denies, hinders, or brings misfortune to the good they signify. However if such a planet is in an unfortunate house it clearly promotes the evil of that house and not the good of the other house it may rule over, and so no resolution takes place -- unless perhaps unfortunate of the rulership meanings into the meanings shown by the planet's location."
Read that carefully and a few times. A few definitions are in order. Celestial state is essential dignity plus aspects and antiscion. A planet with lots of essential dignity but say square Saturn or Mars in detriment is less good or has a worse celestial state than the same planet with a nice trine from a strong benefic. Morin didn't break down essential and accidental dignity. He combined some features of accidental dignity with essential dignity and called it "celestial state."

Terrestrial state has to do with the house the planet occupies. It is in good terrestrial state in an angle; it is in poor terrestrial state in the 12th.

Morin was big on the effects of a planet if its meaning was similar to the meaning of the house it occupied. For example The Sun signifies honors. If the Sun is in the 10th house, the house of honors, it was particularly strong and more likely to indicate honors than it would indicate other things the Sun rules. Venus has an analogy with relationship, so if she is in the 7th house she is more likely to indicate relationships than say other Venus things like luxuries. In the second she is more likely to indicate luxuries than relationship. Morin did not believe a planet should indicate everything it was associated with everywhere in the chart. He took issue with Ptolemy and others on that point. The Moon cannot be your wife, your mother, your sister, and your daughter no matter where it is in the chart.

So he's saying you may (I don't get the impression this is absolutely necessary to do this), combine the ruling planet with the houses it occupies and the house it rules. He gives the example of Lord 1 and 8 in 7. The 7th house is house where the meaning of everything else is resolved because that is the location of the ruling planet. House 1 is the individual and his body. House 8 is the death of the individual and this is resolved in the 7th: the body is killed by an enemy or as a result of an enemies action. Why not the spouse doing the killing? This is where the analogy comes in. If the ruling planet is Venus a planet with an analogy with the wife, it could well mean death by the wife (at times an open enemy if there ever was one). If the ruling planet is Mars, the open enemy is likely to be a soldier or if the native is a policeman, a violent criminal.

But what if it is Mars? Mars has no analogy with the 7th. Mars is a malefic so Mars denies, hinders, or brings misfortune to those things in the 7th house, e.g. marriage. Mars is the natural significator of divorce. So
maybe the native gets lucky and only gets divorced rather than meet a violent death. Morin has this habit of almost always using the ASC, and thereby denoting the native, when he gives examples of these combinations. It doesn't always work so neatly when the ASC is not involved.

I think in cases where these things cannot be combined that we should simply ignore that facet of the delineation and instead simplify by reading the house and its ruler separately and not try to combine them. Notice, too that not every planet can rule houses 1 and 8. So not every combination is possible for every planet.

Tom

12
Thank you very much Tom for taking the time to provide such long and elucidating answers.
Thus, the ruler of the first and eighth in the seventh, and in adverse celestial state, foretells the native will be killed or wounded by an open enemy, and so on.
OK, but since the 8th house is about MY death, wouldn't its' position indicate something about my death without the need to involve the Ascendant? What I mean is, if just the ruler of the 8th (let's say the Sun or the Moon which rule one house only) were in the 7th, wouldn't I reach a similar conclusion as above? Or would I only interpret it as afflicting the 7th house and its' affairs by being there as it is an accidental malefic? Which brings me to another question. Do I consider the rulers of the malefic houses as accidental malefics? What if I have Gemini in the 8th and Virgo in the 11th which would make Mercury the ruler of both a malefic and a very fortunate house?
Morin was big on the effects of a planet if its meaning was similar to the meaning of the house it occupied. For example The Sun signifies honors. If the Sun is in the 10th house, the house of honors, it was particularly strong and more likely to indicate honors than it would indicate other things the Sun rules. Venus has an analogy with relationship, so if she is in the 7th house she is more likely to indicate relationships than say other Venus things like luxuries. In the second she is more likely to indicate luxuries than relationship. Morin did not believe a planet should indicate everything it was associated with everywhere in the chart. He took issue with Ptolemy and others on that point. The Moon cannot be your wife, your mother, your sister, and your daughter no matter where it is in the chart.
This is very interesting and makes sense. So, if Venus is in a house that has no connection with the things she naturally rules, we would give her back all her natural rulerships?