Hello,

Eddy wrote: Since Skyscript deals with traditional astrology it surprizes me a bit that nobody has mentioned the Trutina Hermetis yet.

The problem with Trutina is we should start from whatever Ascendant because the conception Moon should be in the same position or in the opposite one

Another traditional method is given by Ptolemy Tetrabiblos III.2 but I fail to understand this difficult text.

Well there are several variants, and using ascensions is a little tricky, yes, because one should try and try until having a proper result.

And even in this case we could have many results, i.e. someone could be born just in determinate moments, but there a not jus a single moment proper to birth in a day.

Anyway, using longitudes it is not a difficult method. you should start from the sizygy preceding the birth and find its ruler, i.e. the planet which has most rights on it
Then we should consider where this planet is in the birth chart: MC or Asc should have the same degree.

In the case of Michael Jackson (let's consider Ben Dykes chart, I vote for him ), the preceding sizygy is the Full Moon at 6 Pisces.

Jupiter rules it by domicile and it is in separating aspect with the Moon.

Venus rules the sizygy by term and triplicity, it's in the same hairesis of the chart (on the contrary Jupiter is against its hairesis) but there is no aspect to the Moon.

Still I would prefer Jupiter because of the aspect ....

Then I see where Venus or Jupiter fall in MJ chart.

Jupiter is at 28 so I should move Ascendant or MC behind at 28 Taurus; Venus is at 17 so in this case I just should move MC a degree behind, for a birth at 23:36.

Easy, true?
The point I'm not sure about the method, I study with Giancarlo Ufficiale, former secretary of CieloeTerra and it seems to understand he is not happy with these theoretical methods, but I don't want put in his mouth words I never heard.

In every case in CieloeTerra they use ascensions,
let me know if I was unclear - as usual, I do the same in Italian too

margherita

Hi, everybody
sorry for the delay, but sometimes life takes its charge.

First of all, many thanks for James, Deb, Linchi, Dr H, Isaak, Rene, Juspica, Matt, Eddy and Marguerita participation. Hopefully this will be an interesting exercise.

Central Scrutinizer - I don?t know if he was in his place of birth at the time of his birthday, sorry. If you look for, you will see that even if he was in Sao Paulo, the difference is pretty small, around 600 km. If possible, try to use the same method you would use for a celebrity where place at birthday is usually unclear. He lived at Rio de Janeiro at the time of the accidents.

Deb - Sorry, I don?t have the phisical description.

Eddy - sorry, when I said the astrologer "timed" the birth, I meant he was present and timed it with a clock. There is also the time of the birth certificate available.

Dr H, I agree with you that this mystery chart should be taken as an exercise in "trial rectification". I will give some extra time to everybody (untill monday) and after that I will narrow the window of rectification to only 2 hours. Everybody who chose a time will be free to try to try again with the more precise window of time.

Marguerita - the birth was in a moment between 12pm and 6 am, it couldn?t be at 23:36. As I will narrow down the window of time, I think you will be able to use trutina.

Thanks again everybody for the participation.

Thanks Yuzuru for the clarification. This chart then is great material for examining rectification.

Gjiada wrote:The problem with Trutina is we should start from whatever Ascendant because the conception Moon should be in the same position or the opposite one

Since I never thoroughly investigated the Trutina I don't know how the results will be, seen from a technical point. I have been calculating a bit with the astrodienst chart program and there are several possible Trutina based birthtimes. It seems like a sort of wave pattern. I did it with intervals of 15 minutes of birthtime, using these to find the conception moments. At certain moments the results 'click' into place. I will have a look at them at home tonight. But one of them came close to what I said in a post before (MC close to Saturn).

With a birthtime at 2:00AM the MC is 28?54' Pisces. Note that I use as 'Ascendant' MC+90?. In this case this would give 28?54' Gemini. I searched for the Moon taking this position 273 days before plus several days (according to the Trutina, for waxing moon under the horizon) and got the date and hour when Moon was there. This was 12 november 1965 at 2h37m in Rio and Sidereal Time was 6h09m. At this moment MC was 2?6' Cancer giving a MC-houses cusp I of 2?6' Libra which is very close to the natal Moon.

I will have also a look at the other 'Trutina' moments of conception.
However I like this one because looking at the transits in the third date, the car accident in 16 August 1986, could be fitting.

Apart from the traditional 7, the only planets I use are Uranus Neptune and Pluto and major aspects (and sometimes 45?/135? and other minor aspects). I don't use asteroids, nor midpoints. Although I didn't use the Trutina based upon the Ascendant, I do use the Ascendant as an important sensitive point. The 2:00 AM chart gives an Ascendant of 19?34' Gemini.

The period of the accident is extremely full of transits. One day before the Moon went conjunct over the Ascendant. The 16th Mercury was conjunct natal Venus. A few days before Venus had conjuncted natal Moon. Retrograde Jupiter was a 10 days before square aspect to (the 19?34') Ascendant. Uranus is retrograde and had aspected Ascendant by opposition in June. With a later birthtime +15 minutes this wouldn't have been possible. Uranus turned direct 10 days after the accident so 'stood still' for a while, could have been extra strong by this. Retrograde Neptune was square to natal Moon and had the turning direct date one month later. If the person was born later than 4:30 the Moon couldn't have been transited in the months before. Pluto was square transit between natal Venus and Mercury in the retrograde period, just didn't touch the Venus when turning direct and would only get over (the square) to Mercury in November (just didn't manage to 'touch' Mercury in february when he went retrograde. The Node was close square to natal Jupiter Mars.

Many transits thus, which perhaps could make any transit to Ascendant or MC necessary to trigger an event. I'm not really sure if a transit kan make an accident happen but I rather think that the person was very busy or restless in this period and may have been distracted at just the wrong moment. Uranus' part would be interesting though because this planet is often related to sudden events.

In the natal chart this would result in MC/IC axis conjunct with the respectively Saturn-Moon opposition. The line of planets Jupiter-Mars-Venus-Mercury are trine to MC, or at cusp II in the Equal-MC system. The infromation given by Yuzuru, lawyer education and the work at the "non profit organisation fighting for the rights for the handicapped" makes me think that he is good in his job that he manages to get funds (house II). I believe his Mercury Venus conjuntion makes him a good speaker managing to attain the goals.

Tonight I will have a look if I can find anything with progressions and directions.

So in short until now I think the birthtime is close to 2:00 AM with MC 28?54' Pisces and Ascendant 19?34' Gemini. And the method(s) used are Trutina Hermetis based upon an ' Ascendant' of MC+90? as cusp I and major aspect transits of slow planets over fast planets and Ascendant covering a wide period and Moon and fast planets over fast planets and Ascendant close to the accident.

The temperament of the native would seem to lack melancholy and I think that his ruling planet is Jupiter because of his charity work. Abu Ali Al-khayyat describes the third/ninth house house axis as pointing to the native's law and religion. This definition is fine for someone living in a theocracy but is anachronistic in our secular times. I would say community/ideaology.

Jupiter is almuten figuris in the middle of the range at least according to my computer so it looks like around three o'clock. Capella rises, looks promising.

I will check it and then try to find a way to fine tune it. These techniques are very basic but they can be seen as a control for the more sophisicated methods

Regards

Matt

Now I have the positions of intervals of 5 minutes for calculating the Trutina Hermetis. (To be sure to cause no confusion I again mention that I based the calculations for a cusp I of the MC-house system i.e. MC+90?, instead of the ascendant.) According to this Trutina possible birth times are:
12:15-12:20
01:05-01:10
02:00-02:05
02:50-02:55
03:40-03:50 or very close to 03:45
04:35-04:45 or very close to 04:40
05:35-05:40

The choice of 2:00 could have been because it was one of the first close results I got (with the previous 15 minutes intervals). There is the danger of trying to 'fit' the resulting natal horoscope to what is known of the person, I try to keep aware of that.

I'm not sure about what primary directions to use (I haven't totally reconciled to which system to use) but using one of the easiest methods.
The movement of MC and Ascendant for every 4 minutes of the clock, gives positions of the Ascendant square to Saturn a bit before the death of the grandfather and Ascendant square to Moon a bit after the death of the father (and the mother leaving the father!). Could also indicate the person as a 10 year old going to an other family taking care of him, uncle or someone else for example.

Using Mundane primary directions (with latitued involved, so not latitude =0?) in Equatorial system or Right Ascension chart (not semi arcs thus) I get directed Sun in 135? aspect to Saturn at age 13.5.

The progressed Sun gives for the first event semi-sextiles, 30? to Venus and Moon, but such aspects are very weak. The second event is with Sun semi-sextile to Mercury and semi-square to Sun.

Semisquares are also found in the natal chart and in the transits I mentioned yesterday.

Hi, everybody

Thanks so much to everybody for the effort and participation.

As promised I will narrow it down the "window of time". I hope that this will not discourage anybody, but instead it will raise even more interested for this chart.

The real time of birth is between 12:30am and 2:30am. He was born at some moment in this interval.

Best regards

Hello,

Thanks for the challenge...

I am using methods which I am new at... so am not so confident...but a challenge is a challenge. LOL

I have three times that I like, so in the interests of covering all bases at once, here they are... in order of preference:

1st: 12:45:46 am

2nd: 1:10:33 am

3rd: 1:01:47 am

This is quite fascinating and I look forward to having the answer revealed!

James / CentralScrutinizer

hi

re-checked

01:06:44 or 02:29:00

02:29:00 seems better than 01:06:44

used H-16 (Tropical)




02:29:00


1-On May 19th 1976, around 10h30 PM, his grandather died

tr-MO = MO
tr-UR = Se-UR = AC/MO


Se-MO= Se-SA = ME/MA
Se-MC = SA/UR
Se-AC = MO/MA
Se-ME = AC/SA = MC/PL
Se-SU = MC/UR

SeC-AC = SU
SeC-MC = AC/SA
SeC-MO = AC/NN
SeC-SU = AC/MC
SeC-MA = MC/PL


2-On January 18th, 1979, around 5 AM, his father, who was an alcoholic, committed suicide after being left by his wife (Mister X?s mother). He killed himself with cooking gas.


tr-NN= MO/SA
tr-MA = MC/MO
tr-ME = MC/SA

Se-MO = SE-MC = AC = MO/PL
Se-AC = MC/NN
Se-SU = AC/MO
Se-SA = MC/UR

SeC-MC = SeC-NN = MC/NN
SeC-AC = MC/SU
SeC-MA = MC



3- On August 16th, 1986m, exactly at 9h32 AM, in a interstate Highway between Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo, he suffered a car crash and became paraplegic.

tr-MC = MC = MA/PL
tr-SU = MC/PL
tr-MO = ME/MA
tr-MA = AC/MO
tr-AC = AC/PL

Se-MC = AC/UR = MA
Se-MO = ME/MA


SeC-AC = SeC-SU
SeC-MC = PL



linchi

Here is my second attempt: 02.27.44 Asc 25Gem41', it could be 15 seconds earlier.
Abbreviations:
SR = Solar Return
SRP = Solar return, precession corrected
CSR = Converse solar return
CSRP = Converse solar return, precession corrected
LR = Lunar return
CLR = Converse lunar return
All the aspects are to the angles of the solar or lunar return
Q = Quarterly (4th harmonic)
All the lunar returns are precession corrected
1. Grandfather died
Primary directions in Topocentric system:
MC 120 Mars 1'
Moon 90 Asc 1'
Nep 120 Sat 1'
Mars 120 MC 2'
Asc 90 Moon 4'
VIII 0 Mer 8'
Mer 0 VIII 10'
Secondary: Asc 90 Pluto 2'
PSSR: Moon 180 Neptune 24'
SR: Neptune exactly on IC, Mars on MC
SRP: Saturn exactly on MC
CSR: Neptune exactly on Desc
LR: Saturn and Mars on Asc, SN conjunct IC
CLR: Sun and Saturn exactly on Asc
Transit: Saturn conjunct cusp 8th 48'
2. Death of father
Primary:
MC 150 Nep 4'
SN 180 XII 8'
SR: Sun, Saturn ON IC
SRPQ: Neptune and Mars on MC, Saturn on Desc
CSRPQ: Saturn on MC
LR: Saturn exactly on Asc, Neptune exactly on IC
CLR: Pluto on MC
Transits:
Sun conjunct cusp 8th orb 1'
Mars conjunct cusp 8th orb 29'
Converse Neptune 120 Asc
3. Accident
Secondary:
MC 90 Mars 5'
Regressed Moon 180 regressed Mars 28'
PSSR: Moon 0 Pluto 6'
SR: Mars and Mercury exactly on Desc, SN exactly on IC
SRP: Mars and Mercury on IC, SN and Saturn on Desc
CSRP: Mercury, Saturn and Pluto exactly on Asc, SN on IC
SRPQ: Mars on MC
CLR: Mars and Neptune on IC
Transits:
Saturn 90 III 48'
Neptune 120 III 56'
Converse: Neptune 180 MC 35'
Mars 180 MC 89'

yuzuru wrote:The real time of birth is between 12:30am and 2:30am. He was born at some moment in this interval.

Best regards

Now there remain two (Cusp I = MC+90?, based) Trutina possibilities. 1:05-1:10 and 2:00 and 2:05. I'll have a closer look to other possibilities but until now I think I'll stick around the time of 2:00AM. It gives the Ascendant a fitting position and I think the deviation should not be more than 5 ? 10 minutes back or forth.

By the way, Yuzuru do you know if the grandfather was the father of the person's father or the father of the person's mother?

Gjiada wrote:

Another traditional method is given by Ptolemy Tetrabiblos III.2 but I fail to understand this difficult text.

Well there are several variants, and using ascensions is a little tricky, yes, because one should try and try until having a proper result.

And even in this case we could have many results, i.e. someone could be born just in determinate moments, but there a not jus a single moment proper to birth in a day.

Anyway, using longitudes it is not a difficult method. you should start from the sizygy preceding the birth and find its ruler, i.e. the planet which has most rights on it .

This still seems difficult to me, since I don't know very much about traditional astrology the choice of planet with the most right would be quite difficult and I think I easily would make mistakes.

Looks like I am within the range. So sticking with 1:24:48 AM

With a proposed time of 03:15 I?m out of range so it has to be revised.

The first event, the death of the grandfather and the feeling of guilt afterwards could well have been the primary direction of Saturn to the Midheaven (in mundo, key of Ptolemy). Calculating back, this gives a birth time of 01:24, very close to Dr. H.?s time of 01:24:48.

Checking this new time the same way as in my first post, unfortunately, the aspects orbs of the secondary progressed Moon are getting a bit too wide

19 May 1976 Grandfather died:
? Moon (p) -45?- Saturn (p) on 4 June 1976
? Moon (p) -45?- Saturn (rad) on 23 June 1976
=> Close emotional encounter (Moon) with death (Saturn)

16 Aug 1986 Accident:
? Moon (p) -90?- Pluto (rad) on 22 Sept 1986
? Moon (p) -90?- Pluto (p) on 11 Oct 1986
=> Profound transformation (Pluto) of life habits (Moon)

?.. unless you take the parallax Moon!

19 May 1976 Grandfather died:
? parallax Moon (p) -45?- Saturn (p) on 15 May 1976
? parallax Moon (p) -45?- Saturn (rad) on 13 June 1976

16 Aug 1986 Accident:
? parallax Moon (p) -90?- Pluto (rad) on 31 August 1986
? parallax Moon (p) -90?- Pluto (p) on 29 September 1986


Parallax or geocentric moon? ? I guess this would be worth another discussion.


Solar Arc aspects for a birth time 01:24:

MC (directed) conjunct Saturn (radix), orb 0?09? applying. The same interpretation as PD Saturn/MC. No significant aspects to/of the angles for the other two events. And also, no Mars/Uranus/Pluto aspects to the angles for the accident?.

Solar Eclipses preceding the events:

Only event 3, the accident, has aspects to the new angles: MC and Saturn of the Eclipse at the Descendant.

Fixed Stars rising/setting:

AVIOR rising (01:24); unfortunately, I couldn?t find any delineation
MIRFAK rising (01:26); ?A sporting attitude, or a physically active person.?
ANTARES setting (01:20); ?Perpetuating, or being subjected to, polarizing events?
VEGA setting (01:21); ?To have charisma, to be a strong influence on others?
(?quotations? by Bernadette Brady)

We only have the information that the native was planning in having a major in Sport and Fitness which would fit MIRFAK.

Aspects to the angles and midpoints with AC and MC radix involved:

? Uranus and Pluto at the IC could well represent the drastic change in life through the accident.
? Mars is half square to the AC with a small orb of only 0?39? separating. In combination with Uranus and Pluto at the IC, the heavy accident looks plausible.
? AC is in the midpoint of Sun and Saturn. His freedom of movement is impaired.

The Progressed Angles (mean Quotidian) with Secondary, Tertiary and Minor Progressions are plausible for all 3 events, even better than with the previous time.

So, my new time is 01:24.

Ren?