Moon Hyleg Ruler and Almuten of 8th?

1
Can the Moon in a night chart in the 5th house by division and 6th in whole sign houses, ruler and almuten of the 8th house (empty) be considered hyleg?
Bob Dylan's chart has the Moon dignified in Taurus in this condition. Should I discard the Moon and search for another candidate or stick to it althought she's determined to the 8th house?
There's also the rule from Abu Ali Al-Khayatt and Masha'Allah stating that Moon in Taurus or Cancer, or Sun in Aries or Leo should be considered Hyleg and Alcocoden.
I'm having some difficulty sorting the giver of life (Hyleg) with the ruler of the 8th (death).javascript:emoticon(':-?')
Thanks
Sara

2
I've got Moon in Taurus in 6 ruling 8, so I use the Ascendant as hyleg in my chart. But the big problem is the house location, not the 8 rulership. You go with the best you've got, and Moon in Taurus in 5 is good. I'd go with it.

Closest example from personal files and per Bonatti and Ptolemy is a client with a nocturnal chart, Moon in Cap in 1, Moon rules 8, and Moon is hyleg by both of them - and it makes sense to me looking at the chart, too.

3
This also brings another discussion to me. Can the lord of the AC be the Anareta (Lord of Death?)

For example, I'm a Aries rising, and Mars rule my 8th... So, is Mars able to bring death by whatever means, in the fellow astrologers opinion?

4
According to Ibn Ezra, yes - it's somewhere in The Beginning of Wisdom, I think - I know it's one of his, and that seems the most likely.

I believe the problem with Aries rising is that the native's recklessness often plays a part in his death.

Looking now, and so far we have, on page 88 of the Epstein translation:

The eight house denotes death, and inheritance, and loans, separation, fear, grief, and loss. The first ruler of the triplicity indicates death (emphasis mine); the second [indicates] anything ancient; and the third [indicates] inheritance.

5
Hi Olivia,
I've got Moon in Taurus in 6 ruling 8, so I use the Ascendant as hyleg in my chart. But the big problem is the house location, not the 8 rulership. You go with the best you've got, and Moon in Taurus in 5 is good. I'd go with it.
Thank you for your reply.
Your example seems to be a good choice given the Moon (by division I assume) in the 6th, but the fact is that by whole signs in a nocturnal chart the Moon in Taurus below the horizon is out of sect and not properly aspecting the Sagittarius ASC sign.

Valens in Book III, 1. Concerning Predomination
Let our first determination be that which concerns predomination and hurling of rays and rulership. And before all, let the predomination for the Sun and the Moon be sought. Some, then, gave it to the Sun by day and the Moon by night, but I say that the Sun also predominates by night and the Moon by day if they should happen to be figured opportunely. And if this should be the case for both, then I say to assign the predomination to the one that is more properly figured and to the one that is found in sect or trigon. (emphasis mine).
Some lines below Valens gives an example of the Moon in Cancer and the Sun in Leo, which we could transfer to our Moon in Taurus example. If the Sun is in Aries with the Moon in Taurus, both in the 5th house by division the Sun would be the light in sect and aspecting the ASC by sign while the Moon would be cadent by sign. I think the Sun will predominate over the Moon.

Anyway, I'm still puzzled by the question of giving a Hyleg role to a planet ruling the 8th house.

Any comments on this will be much appreciated.

Sara

6
Based on the chart at Astro-Databank (which they conclude has a "AA" rating) the Moon is closely conjunct Saturn in Taurus, under the Sun's beams, and in the sixth sign from the Ascendant. This makes the Moon a poor candidate for hyleg.
With just a glance I would say the Ascendant is Hyleg, Mercury (the term ruler) as Alcocoden.
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7
Okay - conjunct Saturn and USB - no, not a good candidate for hyleg.

Ibn Ezra went into the huge differences of opinions of the authorities, though - at least up to the 11th century, when he was writing. Some said it's okay to have a planet under the horizon as hyleg, some said never, it's kind of a draw as to who you decide to go with.

But unless the ascendant is in even worse shape than the moon, that sounds like your candidate. Or Fortuna. Or the SAN, if need be.

8
I'd go with the Sun as the Predominator, he being angular by sign though the sect light is the Moon, because she is cadent by sign. Since Mercury is both domicile and confine lord of the Sun, and he is also angular both by sign and division, it's probably safe to give Mr. Dylan Mercury's major years as the base for the length of life.
Gabe

9
Thank you all for the answers to my question.
With just a glance I would say the Ascendant is Hyleg, Mercury (the term ruler) as Alcocoden.
But unless the ascendant is in even worse shape than the moon
I'd go with the Sun as the Predominator, he being angular by sign though the sect light is the Moon, because she is cadent by sign.
In this particular case, like Gabe I would be incilined to steer away from the Moon as Hyleg since it is in a place hostile to the ascendant and it gives its testimony from a place in aversion to the Ascendant.

Either way if we consider the Sun or the ASC as Hyleg, we'll end up with Mercury as the "giver of years". That's fair enough.
But the hyleg was also called the "giver of life" and I would also be inclined to say that if the Hyleg were also the lord of the 8th it cannot impede itself and I would begin to look at another for the killing planet, which there are several possibilities.

Thanks Steven for the quote from Masha'allah.
In the particular case of Bob Dylan the Moon was discarded by its own placement but in other cases where the Hyleg happens to be the 8th ruler I feel that searching for another significator of death is very much the point I was searching for.

Sara

12
Hi Estebon,

Aby Ali al-Khayyat in "Judgments of Nativities" ? Chap 37, have rules to compute the almutem of several points and planets from the chart which could indicate the "killing planet" its significations and the kind of death the native will be subject to.

Omar of Tiberias, Bonatti and Ibn Ezra (sorry not to cite chapters or pages, I'm not with them right now) also addressed this matter.

Saturn and Mars by their natures are obvious candidates, but in a fast calculation as per Abu Ali, Venus, closely followed by the Moon and Mars is the Almuten of the killing points.

But these are only math and you have made a point with Mars, because by whole signs he's in the 4th house and is the 1st triplicity ruler of the 8th besides being aspected by the Sun.

Regards
Sara