31
Hello Dimitry,

This text of Junctinus is obviously important. However according to a translation of such a text from Pepita Sanchis, there is some subtility that has to be taken care of. For instance, the calculation has to be made from "the first star of Aries" (possibly Mesarthim, but I am not sure). Etc. Now, when Junctinus gives an example, in the chapter XIII of the Second part, he don't use precession (at, least as we do).

Any way, here is the Latin text you may have used, and which I refer to:
?...Deinde praecessio equinoctii verni apparens hinc est subducenda,
remanet locus Solis verus a prima Arietis stella numeratus, & non ab
intersectionis puncto vernali...?
Regards,
François CARRIÈRE

Re: Junctin and precession

32
astroart wrote:Here is a free translation:
As far as many astrologers are concerned, in order to use correctly the oservations of Ptolemy , in their astrological predictions they calculate the planets according to the eighth shere. The true location of the Sun is to be found in the emphemeries.
Then, from the position of the Sun in the emphemeries the movement of the precession should be extracted and this way we get the true location of the Sun, which can not be got from the emphemeries.
From the planets we should also extract the precession and so we get the true location of the planets to the fixed stars. This method best meets my practice.
Hi Astroart.
This looks interesting but a few things in your translations aren't yet clear to me. First "in their astrological predictions they calculate the planets according to the eighth shere. The true location of the Sun is to be found in the emphemeries." It seems here that the positions in relation to the fixed stars is meant (the 8th sphere), thus sidereal ephemerides.
Do you or Fran?ois know what ephemerides Giuntini used?
carriere.francois wrote:For instance, the calculation has to be made from "the first star of Aries" (possibly Mesarthim, but I am not sure).
It seems that the Alfonsine Tables were originally sidereal with some added formulas to calculate trepidation (the theory of the backwards and forwards motion of the equinox) instead of precession. The 0?Aries point used was Zeta Piscium or Revati from the Indian astrologers. (see the astrodienst link below). This coincided with the equinox in ca. 560-570 AD. Its use therefore unites Indian, Persian and thus some western Medieval astrologers.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2004JHA....35..479S p. 481.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=RupA3n3 ... t&resnum=2 p218.
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swisseph. ... c226863952

Back to the translated text; the second part confuses me "Then, from the position of the Sun in the emphemeries the movement of the precession should be extracted and this way we get the true location of the Sun, which can not be got from the emphemeries."

Here the "true location" is mentioned again. It seems that in the first part a sidereal position is mentioned (as the correct one), which is to be found in the ephemeris. Then in the second part it is said that the ephemeris position isn't the correct one but has to be corrected (from tropical (in the ephemeris) to sidereal?).

The Harvard article I mentioned above mentions the Parisian tables which were tropical. So perhaps till Giuntini's days perhaps there were two kinds of ephemerides in use? I don't know.

33
Hi everyone,

Today I will intend to give you more detailed answer.
1. I am not the first one who discovered that Junctin was the one who recommended the use of precession for the calculation of the horoscope.
An information about this I originally found in the book of Eric Weil " Astrlogie: la practique de la pr?vision", Lyon 1995, p.92. Below comes the original text without translation as it is easy to understand:

" Denis Labour? nous a communiqu? que tout r?cement (d?cembre 1994), un groupe d? astrologues anglais travaillant sur les textes anciens s?est rendu compte que, dans le premier chapitre de son Trait? des r?volutions solaires (XVI si?cle), Junctin de Florence tient affectivement compte de la precession des equinoxes dans le calcul du moment du retour solaire.Ce chapitre n?a pas ?t? mis ? la disposition des astrologues contemporains dans la traduction par Hi?roz en 1960 pour Les Cahiers astrologiques."

I suppose that the English astrologers' Group, translating from Latin and mentioned from Eric Weil, is the circle of Graeme Tobyn. The reason why I think so, is the information published in the "Astrological Journal" , January/February 1997. Below comes the quotes:

"Graeme Tobyn, medical herbalist and astrologer, provided the Latin translations during Olivia Barclay's lecture in Exeter. He heads the London Translation Group, which meets one Friday per month from October to June at the Warburg Institute, Bloomsbury. The group is currently studying a Latin translation of the 8th Century text " On Reception", Masha'allah. Space exists for people with some knowledge of Latin to join this group..."

In my previous post I specified the text's page with free translation of it.

An now comes the English translation of the discussed part of Latin text:

" Inquirendus est locus Solis verus, qui ad diem completum ex Ephemeridibus excerpitur: deinde praecessio aequinoctij verni apparens hinc est subducenda, ita remanet locus Solis verus ? prima Arietis stella numeratus, &non ab intersectionis puncto vernali...."

"You should search for the true location of the Sun, which is to be extracted from the past days from the Ephemeries: from there the precession of the vernal equinox which appears, from this place is to be subtracted, and what remains is the true location of the Sun, measured from the first star of Aries, and not from the intersection of the vernal point."

I think, Junctin is easy to understand: he recommends to take the Sun's position from the Ephemeries, which are tropical, and from this position of the Sun the precession to be subtracted. The result is the sidereal position of the Sun. The same has to be done for the other planets.

Mss Francois Carriere is right. In the chapter XIII Junctin gives an example in which gives tropical positions of the Sun and the planets in the radix as well as in the solar horoscope. Here comes the original text:

http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/lib ... trologiae/

As we can see from the text, the longitudes of the Sun in the radix and in Solar horoscope have the same values, which means that in this example Junctin haven't used precessed solar return.

Everyone can recalculate the example horoscope of Juctin by a modern software and will make sure that Junctin gives tropical longitudes- in the radix as well as in the solar.

But what ephemeries Junctin had used? Here is the answer of the Eddy's question:

Regiomontanus had published in 1474 the ephemeris for the years 1474-1506. These were the first european ephemeris. The Alfonsine Tables are not ephemeris in the modern meaning of this word, they are rather "zij" or arabic astronomical tables.
Johann Stoeffler had published ephemeris for the years 1499-1532.
Luca Gaurico had published in 1533 ephemeries for the years 1534-1551.
Johann Stadius had published in 1581 ephemeris for the 1554-1606.

The birth date in the Junctin's example horoscope is 18 July 1523, 17h18m
post meridiem. I think for this horoscope Junctin had used the ephemeris of Johann Stoeffler. Here you have a link to these ephemeris for July 1523:

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... &seite=783

Everyone can recalculate the Suns' and other planets' positions for the mentioned date.

In his book Junctin had given 400 example horoscopes. As Junctin hadn't given any information in the horoscope mentioned above, such as birth name and birth latitude, I supposed that Junctin had published this horoscope in other place of the book. And B I N G O!!!!! I have found this horoscope on the p. 966:

http://fondosdigitales.us.es/fondos/lib ... trologiae/

Here Junctin had given more information about the native.About the horoscope he had written:
"Cuiusdam Medici Nativitas" which means : "Radix horoscope of someone Medici"
In the beginning of the horoscope interpretation Junctin had written:
"Tria breuiter in hac tua genitura, Magnifice Francisce, faciam" which means: "Shortly, with this[description] your geniture, Your Hollyness Francisco, I will make it."
So, first of all, we understand that he is someone from the Medici's family, and secondly, that the native is born in Florence.

From the book of Wilchelm Knappich "Geschichte der Astrologie", Frankfurt 1967, p.236 we got to know that Junctin had been a educator of the Catherine de' Medici's sons, and as well as Nostradamus, had made predictions about her sons.

These historical facts confirm our example horoscope.

34
Thanks for the fascinating material Astroart, great research :' .

Unfortunately I can't read Latin but I looked at the charts to try to find out what he used as "0? Aries". In the 1523 chart example to get the sidereal positions he subtracts 27?19'. I don't know what people of those days believed the rate of precession was but a few centuries before it was believed to be 1? in 66.6 years and according to some with the 0? Aries beginning point near Zeta Piscium.

If we calculate for the now known rate of precession of ca. 1? in 72 years
then 27?19 would give a 0? Aries date about the year 450 BCE. Now this would be at ca. 3? ? 4? Taurus (tropical). This comes close to the star mentioned by Fran?ois; Mesarthim http://www.constellationsofwords.com/st ... rthim.html

In a work of Astrodienst (which due to some computer language 'things', unfortunately is hard to read) the history of several starting points is discussed. All are at about 20? (Zeta Pisium, and according to Astrodienst used by Hipparchus, the Persians in the 6th century, the Toledan tables and Copernicus) to 24? (Spica) (according to the year 2000) so Mesarthim still is far from those values. Perhaps this one was introduced by other Arabic sources. It's quite a logic choice because Mesarthim is easier visible than Zeta Piscium and the point is there the 0?point (for Spica one has to subtract 180?).

35
Not only should you precession correct your solar returns, you should do the same to your transits! After all. that vernal point is moving backwards all the while so you have to add that precession amount to your transits to get a real "hit".

Don't just take my word for it, try it out. With PC transits come alive.

I read earlier on this thread that 2 Taurus is 2 Taurus, I suppose it is but that 2 Taurus is moving backwards, is it not?

Curtis
Many articles published on www.starworldnews.com

36
I recently heard a talk on Solar Returns by the English astrologer Bernard Eccles.

One suggestion he made which I found quite thought provoking was why just do a return chart in terms of the ecliptical longitude? What about a chart when the Sun reaches the same declination as in the natal chart? I dont know if this idea has any traditional pedigree or not but it seems quite intriguing.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

37
You can always try it, but to my knowledge it doesn't have any traditional basis. If I'm wrong I'll probably hear about it from Steven or others. Traditional astrology or the better parts of it, are based in a philosophy or understanding of the world. Everyone didn't understand everything the same way, but no matter what the astrologer's viewpoint his astrology was based on something in addition to astronomy. Moderns tend to look at technique alone and keep on inventing new ones, along with new planets, etc. There was a reason why older astrologers cast charts for the time the Sun returned to its natal place. What would be the reason for using declination? There may be a good one. I just don't know what it is.

I'm not aware that any of the older astrologers used declination for much, if anything. Rumen Kolev makes extensive use of parallels of declination with primary directions and claims excellent results. I never bothered if only for the reason that I have enough on my plate without taking more into consideration. Give it a whirl, see what happens.

Tom

38
I assumed it wasn't traditional but I have grown wary of saying anything is not traditional here as I have been proven wrong so many times!

I agree modern astrology is obsessed by 'the shock of the new' at the expense of fundamental concepts.
I'm not aware that any of the older astrologers used declination for much, if anything.
There does seem to be much more focus on latitude than declination in terms of planets. However for the Sun its central path along the ecliptic dictates it can have no latitude.

Thus ancient astrologers closely examined the Sun's declination in relation to the celestial equator. This gave birth to the important traditional notion of antiscional and contra-antiscional points which originate from zodiac degrees where the Sun has identical or opposing declination. Clearly the declination of the Sun was very significant to hellenistic astrologers.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/antiscia.html

Thus the intriguing idea of a 'Solar declination return' is that it can occur in an antiscional sign to the location of your natal Sun. However, I have not had time to try this idea out yet in any charts.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

39
MarkC wrote:I recently heard a talk on Solar Returns by the English astrologer Bernard Eccles.

One suggestion he made which I found quite thought provoking was why just do a return chart in terms of the ecliptical longitude? What about a chart when the Sun reaches the same declination as in the natal chart? I dont know if this idea has any traditional pedigree or not but it seems quite intriguing.
From a climatological point of view this would even make more sense than the ecliptic return. Since the duration of light and the intesity of sunbeams depend on declination, the declination return is even more realistic.

On the other side it makes me think that the relation of the Sun (in the ecliptic) in astrology and therefore the effect of astrology is of another nature than the climatological/'declinational' one. (Note that my personal standpoint is that I prefer to view astrology from a more 'natural' standpoint rather than only 'symbolical' one.)

The lunar declination return would even be more interesting because of the movement of the nodes. In 2006 the Moon reached extreme high and low declinations in Gemini/Cancer and Sagittarius/Capricorn, only to be repeated after ca. 18 years, giving a lunar return period of 18 years! The Moon's declination though would be of another nature than the Sun's declination since the temperature etc. depends mainly on the declination of the Sun.

40
Hi Eddy,
On the other side it makes me think that the relation of the Sun (in the ecliptic) in astrology and therefore the effect of astrology is of another nature than the climatological/'declinational' one. (Note that my personal standpoint is that I prefer to view astrology from a more 'natural' standpoint rather than only 'symbolical' one.)
I accept we are discussing different things with Solar declination and the ecliptical position of the planets. However, the notion this makes declination any less central to horoscopic astrology is incorrect in my view. Yes delination of the Sun is a very naturalistic or climatological factor as you present. However, its integral to much of our symbolic astrology too.

For example, look at Ptolemy. The Tetrabiblos is littered with examples that link solar declination/season to astrological concepts. The point is not restricted to the notion of Antiscia/Contra-Antiscia I have already raised.

In book I , chapter 10 of Tetrabiblos Ptolemy links the seasons to the four angles, quadrants and the zodiac.
10. Of the Effect of the Seasons and of the Four Angles.
Of the four seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, and winter, spring exceeds in moisture on account of its diffusion after the cold has passed and warmth is setting in; the summer, in heat, because of the nearness of the sun to the zenith; autumn more in dryness, because of the sucking up of the moisture during the hot season just past; and winter exceeds in cold, because the sun is farthest away from the zenith. For this reason, although there is no natural beginning of the zodiac, since it is a circle, they assume that the sign which begins with the vernal equinox, that of Aries, is the starting-point of them all, making the excessive moisture of the spring the first part of the zodiac as though it were a living creature, and taking next in order the remaining seasons, because in all creatures the earliest ages, like the spring, have a larger share of moisture and are tender and still delicate. The second age, up to the prime of life, exceeds in heat, like summer; the third, which is now past the prime and on the verge of decline, has an excess of dryness, like autumn; and the last, which approaches dissolution, exceeds in its coldness, like winter.
Even more fundamentally Ptolemy suggests in Book I, chapter 11 the nature of the zodiac signs corresponds to their position relative to the equinoxes and solstices. For all tropical astrologers this connection is pivotal.
11. Of Solstitial, Equinoctial, Solid, and Bicorporeal Signs. After the explanation of these matters the next subject to be added would be the natural characters of the zodiacal signs themselves, as they have been handed down by tradition. For although their more general temperaments are each analogous to the seasons that take place in them,certain peculiar qualities of theirs arise from their kinship to the sun, moon, and planets, as we shall relate in what follows, putting first the unmingled powers of the signs themselves alone, regarded both absolutely and relatively to one another.

The first distinctions, then, are of the so?called solstitial, equinoctial, solid, and bicorporeal signs. For there are two solstitial signs, the first interval of 30? from the summer solstice, the sign of Cancer, and the first from the winter solstice, Capricorn; and they have received their name from what takes place in them. For the sun turns when he is at the beginning of these signs and reverses his latitudinal progress, causing summer in Cancer and winter in Capricorn. Two signs are called equinoctial, the one which is first from the spring equinox, Aries, and the one which begins with the autumnal equinox, Libra; and they too again are named from what happens there, because when the sun is at the beginning of these signs he makes the nights exactly equal to the days.

Of the remaining eight signs four are called solid and four bicorporeal. The solid signs, Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, and Aquarius, are those which follow the solstitial and equinoctial signs; and they are so called because when the sun is in them the moisture, heat, dryness, and cold of the seasons that begin in the preceding signs touch us more firmly, not that the weather is naturally any more intemperate at that time, but that we are by then inured to them and for that reason are more sensible of their power.

The bicorporeal signs, Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius, and Pisces, are those which follow the solid signs, and are so called because they are between the solid and the solstitial and equinoctial signs and share, as it were, at end and beginning, the natural properties of the two states of weather.
I would therefore suggest it is incorrect to regard the use of declination as a modern development in astrology. In regards the Sun at least its fundamental to tropical astrology. Going back further to the neolithic the oldest evidence we have of astrological activity seems to relate to buildings or monuments aligned to the the solstices/equinoxes or the location of specific fixed stars.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

41
Hi Mark,

The relation with climate is attractive but one of the problems is how to define conjunctions then. An extreme example may be Pluto. Somewhere in the 1940's 1950's Pluto was in highest declination. Would this then be interpreted as a conjunction with the Sun when in highest declination. Furthermore the plane of the equator rather than of the ecliptic would seem the more logic plane to use.

42
Hello Eddy,
Furthermore the plane of the equator rather than of the ecliptic would seem the more logic plane to use.
Thats not the general position of astrologers who traditionally have relied more on latitude in relation to the ecliptic. However, many modern astrologers have stated to work with declination of the planets too.

I was not trying to argue that declination should be used on its own astrologically. IMHO the use of ecliptical longitude and latitude are still crucial to any meaningful horoscopic astrology. I was simply pointing out that there is a traditional basis for considering declination in regards some important astrological concepts. In particular Antiscia and the qualities of the signs as suggested by Ptolemy. However, this is restricted to the Sun which has obviously no latitude.

There are modern astrologers who use declination much more extensively with all the planets as a technique in itself. This is where modern 'out of bonds' theory originates. A good introduction to the modern use of declination is Paul Newman's book on the subject. I dont know if you have looked at this? As its outside the scope of the traditional forum I will not get into further discussion on modern declination theory here.

My objective was far more modest. I was simply taking issue with Tom's earlier statement.
I'm not aware that any of the older astrologers used declination for much, if anything.
Incidentally, in a recent book 'The Hellenistic Legacy' the writer Joseph Crane quotes a section of text in the Apotelesmatics of the classical astrologer Hephaistio of Thebes which he believes is referring to using declination in regards fixed stars. In particular, delineating prominent fixed stars which coincide with a point of the the ecliptic due to declination but are well outside the ecliptic in terms of latitude.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly