16
I have tried to summarize my text above as I'm very interested in these conceptions and would be very happy to understand wheter the consequences of the different conceptions of allotting rulerships to the planets are seen right or wrong by me. Up to now there seems to be a certain misunderstanding and I hope this can be cleared.

Each sign comprehends 30? and has one sign ruler. The common boundary of two signs is the end of the first (at 30?00'00'') and the beginning of the following (at 0?00'00''). What if a planet is placed just upon this boundary point?

Geometrically it should be in the rulership of both planets that of the ruler of the preceeding and that of the ruler of the following sign because both are ruling here, the first still, the second yet. But to my knowledge, this has never been defined in astrology.

And so the rulership of the planets was and is shortened by the smallest unit computed actually to ensure that there is a defined rulership of the planets.

As the ancients did not count 'zero' they let a planet's rulership in a sign begin with the first smallest fraction of their actual computing and thus the sign rulership began at 0?00'01'' and ended at 30?00'00''. If they computed in minutes then the rulership began at 0?01' and ended (unchanged) at 30'00'.

Nowadays customarily is computed with zero and the signs begin at 0?00'00''. As far as I know all computer programmes compute the ingresses for 0?00'00'' of the signs for instance.
Whichever conception is right at the 'point zero' i.e. the real boundary of a sign, there is today another sign ruler than in former times or traditionally. For example Aries is governed on this boundary to Pisces:
by Jupiter traditionally (because it is 30? of Pisces in the old concept)
or by Mars 'today' (because it is 0?00'00'' in the new conception).

Johannes

17
Hi Johannes
Sorry I don?t have time for more than a quick response. I?ll give you my view and then if others have more thoughtful discussion to add, hopefully they will.
Each sign comprehends 30? and has one sign ruler. The common boundary of two signs is the end of the first (at 30?00'00'') and the beginning of the following (at 0?00'00''). What if a planet is placed just upon this boundary point?
Without doubt, in my mind, the planet is at 30, the end of the old sign; because there is no such place as nothing of a sign. I won?t repeat what I have already said, except to add that if software companies view 00 00 00 as the point of ingress instead of 00 00 01, then it is technically wrong (IMO). And yet, this obviously makes practical sense, and I am sure that they would argue that astrologers only work in degrees and minutes, and can?t rely upon accuracy to the very second, and so they round up the ingress point to 00? 00" of the sign, even though some moving *into* the sign is necessary for the ingress to take place.

No part of the zodiac has two term rulers (unless you go by the Ashmand edition of the Tetrabiblos :) )

18
While fooling about in Janus 4, specifically its rectification tool, I can move, for example, the Sun from 29?59'59" of a sign to 00?00'00", which I do believe is the computer standard (probably from having to convert from radians to degrees). Don't think there is an option to have it change the goalposts, so to speak. Solar Fire might be different, but I don't have it, so I don't know.
Gabe

20
GR wrote:While fooling about in Janus 4, specifically its rectification tool, I can move, for example, the Sun from 29?59'59" of a sign to 00?00'00", which I do believe is the computer standard (probably from having to convert from radians to degrees). Don't think there is an option to have it change the goalposts, so to speak. Solar Fire might be different, but I don't have it, so I don't know.
Thanks for your information, Gabe! Does Janus 4 change the sign ruler then? I guess Juptiter at 29?59'59'' and Mars at 0?00'00''?

21
Olivia wrote:I've got them both and SF does the same thing - which is annoying if you think about it. So I try not to.
I suppose according the sign rulers it's the same with SF? What about trying whether SF offers a "change the goalposts", Olivia?

22
They both have bugs, Johannes (like don't rely on the VoC tables!), but all of Pisces (up to 29' 59') is Jupiter, and the terms are right, too, and starting at 0'00 Aries it switches to Mars and the terms are right - per Ptolemy. As are the rest of the signs.

I use Dorothean dignities, but I've got the Ptolemaic tables and I double-checked since SF is Ptolemy only on the breakdown. So it's just a programming glitch or preference. In both of them it goes 0-29'59 instead of 0 01' to 30.

23
Thank you so much for confirming the actual status of two computer programmes, Olivia! As we can see, they don't support the traditional techniques, when a Planet or a computed point is right and exactly on the boudary of a sign &c.. According tables or other declarations and valuations they have then the wrong correlation concerning classical requirements as we have seen. Working traditionally and supported by computer programmes we should be careful to consider whether planets are exactly on boundaries.

Johannes

25
Olivia wrote:You mean I'm not the only one who's looked at a chart tabulation on the screen and said: No it's not! to the computer? ;)
But now you know what the computer could not tell you, Olivia, and there is no need for you to be angry any longer! :D

Johannes

26
True, but Janus still goes buggy on VoC, terms, and aspect perfections sometimes.

Not ALL the time, but enough that you want to know roughly what should be there yourself. Especially on the VoC. Though I have one poor client who, per Janus, had been having his directed ascendant by term switch from Mars to Saturn to Mars to Saturn - his whole life!

Life is short, art is long, software is buggy, and there is much room for error?

27
Not ALL the time, but enough that you want to know roughly what should be there yourself. Especially on the VoC.
And also, although Janus calculates the planetary hours correctly, it always mistakes the beginning of planetary days!

For instance, at thursdays 2am, it will say it is "jupiter?s day" but the day of jupiter only begins at sunrise.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com