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16 by trevor
Deb wrote: No one enjoys doing things 'backwards' but there is a magical principle that if you really want to concentrate on something and put your whole mind into it, you do it backwards. That way you have to focus and your mind doesn?t get stuck in the groove of the expected. This also fits with the connection between retrograde motion and unexpected events or unanticipated results. The drawback is, because there is this element of uncertainty, we are not able to rely on a retrograde planet fitting into the usual flow of things, and this is why retrograde planets are generally viewed with suspicion. The overall state of the planet and the rest of the chart help to describe whether the effect, being 'outside the norm' will cause shock and grief or whether there is a chance that it might cause sudden excitement and surprise.
Well the first part of the paragraph kind of fits with the psychological schema which sees a retrograde planet as introverting it's energy/function/sub-personality. So very useful when you need to turn in on yourself, as it were, and reflect.

Here only Mars is going to be all that problematic.

I can't follow this 'impulsiveness' narrative you often encounter it's not as though a planet appears to move backwards one day and goes 'direct' the next, it's a long process even for the inner planets. Once we get to Jupiter and the impersonal/transpersonal qualities/dynamics of the zodiac then we have a +30% time period so surely this becomes largely irrelevant?

17 by mattG
PallasAthene wrote:I have saturnRx in pisces, placidus 9th.
It squares stationery jupiter in gemini in 11th.
Saturn aspects every planet in my chart except a mercury (leo) /venus (virgo) conj in 2nd.

Do I have trouble getting out of bed or am I quietly determined and focused? Sorry if the wrong thread for personal analysis.
I don't know about that but according to traditional astrology I wouldn't go very far when you do get up as Saturn in the 9th does not bode well for long journeys and square to ruler of the 6th means you may get ill when abroad.

Matthew

18 by PallasAthene
Tom wrote:
Fair dos! But you'd still expect only half to have that placement then..
Births aren't evenly distributed during the year. The claim as best I recall it (and this is always dangerous) was that many famous WWII generals had Pluto Rx in the 12th. And I think that claim was made by Jeff Green in one of his books on Pluto (I could be wrong about that, too). So I mentioned it once, maybe here and some disrespectful little twit proved me wrong. Patton has Pluto Rx in 12. Rommel has Pluto Rx in the 4th. My tormentor listed a bunch of them


Thanks for that admission Tom : ) Still think I should get my coat...

19 by PallasAthene
matt23z wrote:
PallasAthene wrote:I have saturnRx in pisces, placidus 9th.
It squares stationery jupiter in gemini in 11th.
Saturn aspects every planet in my chart except a mercury (leo) /venus (virgo) conj in 2nd.

Do I have trouble getting out of bed or am I quietly determined and focused? Sorry if the wrong thread for personal analysis.
I don't know about that but according to traditional astrology I wouldn't go very far when you do get up as Saturn in the 9th does not bode well for long journeys and square to ruler of the 6th means you may get ill when abroad.

Matthew
Hi Matthew, thanks for taking the time to comment.
You know, you're right.. I had 2 week job in S Carolina last year...the whole crew went to a sea food restaurant and I was only one violently sick that night : ) Work, travel and health all connected.

I also get a lot of work by word-of-mouth ie through friends and aquaintences. Makes sense, 6th ruler in 11th? Or is work 10th?

Saturn is about delays, restrictions by nature, so I'm having trouble thinking about it Rx. Lessons learned.. extra slowly? Or internalised? And in the 9th of higher learning, spiritual development.. well that's an internal place anyway.

Lost.. : (

20 by mattG
Now I come to think of it the debility of Saturn and Jupiter in this chart could be down to the fact that they are out of sect in a nocturnal chart and not due to their speed and direction. Complicated isn't it ? :-?

Never mind, Venus is in sect.

21 by ###
I can't follow this 'impulsiveness' narrative you often encounter it's not as though a planet appears to move backwards one day and goes 'direct' the next, it's a long process even for the inner planets. Once we get to Jupiter and the impersonal/transpersonal qualities/dynamics of the zodiac then we have a +30% time period so surely this becomes largely irrelevant?
Here's my take on it:
The whole retrograde period can be seen as a period of irregularity because the set order has been disrupted. The Sun can once again be used as the exemplar for the whole astrological system: It establishes and typifies the primary motion from east to west and the secondary motion west to east through the zodiac. That's the engine and model that steadily hums along in astrology. When a planet enters a period of retrograde motion it is going against the established order. Instead of its naturally balanced motion from east to west by primary motion and west to east zodiacally, its motion is completely, excessively, east to west. It may not constantly be doing things impulsively and irregularly during that period, but it's poised to act in such a manner at any time due to the fact that it's unstable and out of sync with the Sun's model of motion.

22 by Martine
In the so-called Centiloquium of Ptolemy, the third aphorism reads thus ??He that is inclinable to any art, without doubt in his nativity had some star of the same nature very well fortified?? (translation by Henry Coley). Jean-Baptiste Morin published in French (not in Latin) a book of remarks on the commentary of the Centiloquium made by Nicolas de Bourdin. Morin does not disagree with this aphorism. He just states it is very clear.

If we follow the above rule, famous people should have strong planets related to their pursuits. For instance an athlete should have a strong Mars, an intellectual a strong Mercury, an artist a strong Venus. Unless there is, perhaps, a fixed star that compensates the weakness of the planet.

For a military man, Mars should be strong, but does Pluto show personal qualities ? I doubt it. Pluto may have something to do with war. Morin would not agree on this, as he thought that planets did not mean inanimate things.

Anyway, a planet retrograde at birth may mean something special in the native?s life because of its moves in the Progressions : how long it stays in the same place as it is slow, when it changes its direction, when it returns to the places it already visited, etc. So, if Pluto means war, its being retrograde in the charts of WW II generals perhaps makes sense. A retrograde planet calls for attention.
Martine

23 by trevor
Here's my take on it:
The whole retrograde period can be seen as a period of irregularity because the set order has been disrupted. The Sun can once again be used as the exemplar for the whole astrological system: It establishes and typifies the primary motion from east to west and the secondary motion west to east through the zodiac. That's the engine and model that steadily hums along in astrology. When a planet enters a period of retrograde motion it is going against the established order. Instead of its naturally balanced motion from east to west by primary motion and west to east zodiacally, its motion is completely, excessively, east to west. It may not constantly be doing things impulsively and irregularly during that period, but it's poised to act in such a manner at any time due to the fact that it's unstable and out of sync with the Sun's model of motion
I see your astronomical thinking Kirk but retrograde is quite regular. Venus/Mars are retrograde 10% of the time, Mercury 20% then we are into the 30% from Jupiter.

Then the next question when people have charts full of 'retrogrades' do we notice greater amounts of irregularity / impulsivity. My understanding is from the Psychological Astrology literature is that this isn't noticed when we study people more intensively.

I forget where I heard this but I made a note of it ' When Mercury is retrograde the Sun doesn't go after things in the obvious way'. But is the obvious way always the best way? I'm sure we could find many charts of great thinkers/communicators who have this retrograde,

24 by PallasAthene
matt23z wrote:Now I come to think of it the debility of Saturn and Jupiter in this chart could be down to the fact that they are out of sect in a nocturnal chart and not due to their speed and direction. Complicated isn't it ? :-?

Never mind, Venus is in sect.
Hi Matt, my chart is diurnal, I think. 0505am, asc 0 leo, sun 3 leo. Sunrise?

So, if I'm following, my RxSaturn could manifest as being disorganised, unable to follow traditions or rules, irresponsible, flighty even, claustrophobic about restrictions on freedom, rebellious even. Sort of anti-Saturn? Sounds like Uranus! It also sounds like the Saturnalia.. party time, indulge with presents and free the slaves for a week... most un-Saturn like.

25 by ###
I see your astronomical thinking Kirk but retrograde is quite regular. Venus/Mars are retrograde 10% of the time, Mercury 20% then we are into the 30% from Jupiter.
No astronomical thinking here. I'm following the observational foundation of the day as measured by the Sun's complete cycle from the eastern horizon to its return there the next morning, and the year as measured by the Sun's movement along the ecliptic. Those two types of motion acquired symbolic meaning: That's astrology. Noting the percentage of time spent by the planets in retrograde motion is not astrology! :shock: What use is it? Its most obvious use is to dissuade people from bothering with astrology at all. Statistics and symbolism both start with the letter s, and that's about all they have in common.

What difference does it make if retrograde motion is regular? We aren't considering the occurrence of retrograde but the effects. Retrograde motion doesn't 'turn on' so that the planet always and continuously acts like in a certain manner for a set amount of time. The planet enters a period of a more irregular likely expression.

Then the next question when people have charts full of 'retrogrades' do we notice greater amounts of irregularity / impulsivity. My understanding is from the Psychological Astrology literature is that this isn't noticed when we study people more intensively.
It does depend on the definition used of irregular and impulsive behavior in people. When is someone's action somewhat quirky and when is it clearly irregular? Who determined the definitions and rules that were then used in the literature for judgment? With retrograde motion maybe we are in one of those areas where natal and horary astrology need to be treated differently.

26 by Levente Laszlo
I don't think retrogression should be differently interpreted in the various branches of astrology. The only step is to clarify more exactly what retrogression is in the 'sidereal language' and, to my mind, 'weekness' is a sort of baggy translation that is not suitable in each situation.
I can absolutely agree with Kirk as to contemplate the celestial event itself behind retrogression. Moving counterclockwise, that is, the secondary motion is the natural way of progression (in every sense of this word) of both wandering and fixed stars in a broader scope but I would resist to call retrogression unnatural. It is a matter of forming an opposition with the Lord of the Zodiac, the Sun, or, in the case of inner planets, of passing round him like a dog around the owner. It wouldn't be properly called backward motion because in time there's no backward motion, only recalling past events. Therefore, this motion is not about activity but making plans, tactics, strategy. That's why it is sometimes compared to being ill, when the body tries to set up itself again, but it could be described metaphorically as sleeping vs. being awake, contemplation vs. activity and so.
To sum up, in this and other cases I found the best if we try to unfold some meanings from the celestial story itself and eventually we will be able to interpret the phenomenon properly.

27 by mattG
Hi Matt, my chart is diurnal, I think. 0505am, asc 0 leo, sun 3 leo. Sunrise?
It also sounds like the Saturnalia..
Someone who elects to incarnate at sunrise just to puzzle those who use sect in astrology is clearly a born trouble maker!! :) As to Saturnalia as you know it happens soon after the sun ingress into capricorn. I have heard that an ability to cope with chaos is a capriconian trait. I have started to look at some charts to see if there is a particular saturnian influence that could be relevant.
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