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Another request to check the Pingree edition of Valens
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:38 pm    Post subject: Another request to check the Pingree edition of Valens Reply with quote

I have just been reading Mark Riley's 'Survey of Vettius Valens' which is very interesting and available as a PDF file at

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/PDF_folder/VettiusValens.PDF

I am intrigued by the supposition that the example chart given in Valens book II.30 (chapter 31 in the PH edition), dated to 8th Feb 120, is Valens' own birth chart.

The information is contained in footnote 4 on p,45, but there is no explanation other than a recommendation to "see Pingree's introduction to his edition, p.5". If anyone has the Pingree edition will they please share what evidence supports this? Wikopedia seems to be treating it as a fact, but the idea that we have his birth chart has come as a surprise to me and there is no mention of this chart being special in the PH edition.

It would be very good to think that we have his actual birth chart.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Another request to check the Pingree edition of Valens Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
The information is contained in footnote 4 on p,45, but there is no explanation other than a recommendation to "see Pingree's introduction to his edition, p.5".

Pingree's introduction -- or rather, praefatio -- is in Latin. Wink As far as I can see, though, his identification of Valens's possible nativity is more in the nature of an educated guess. He 'believes' or 'supposes' (opinor) two charts (conception and nativity) to belong to to Valens, because the nativity is the most well-worked example (exemplum probatissimum) of the text, and because the dates would fit nicely with the period in which most of the charts discussed in the Anthology must have been collected.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Martin. I'm perplexed that this can get accepted without supporting evidence. What would Lois Rodden have said? I suppose then, it gets a DD rating (dirty data)?
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epurdue



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Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there any English translations of Valens other than Project Hindsight?
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trevor
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this paper Deb.

On page 27 he quotes Valens:
Saturn makes those born under him...........................a nautical bent, plying waterside trades'.

Does anyone know or have an insight into the thinking here?

Is it perhaps that at this time being a fisherman was seen as unfortunate and hard work?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steven wrote:
I'm not so sure Pingrees suggestion is just a shot in the dark since Valens refrences the birth chart 21 times explaining the predecesion of his mother, his working abroad, his adventures at sea, and his move to Egypt.

As a professional scholar, whose job largely consists in making educated guesses, I would certainly agree that there is a difference between these (educated being the operative word) and shots in the dark! Very Happy

I also agree that most astrology teachers, myself included, tend for very natural reasons to use their own charts as examples much of the time. Still, it's not exactly Rodden rating AA for our Valens chart.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 wrote:
Are there any English translations of Valens other than Project Hindsight?

Not to my knowledge (I would be very interested to learn of any such). There is a fairly recent (2004) German translation by Knobloch and Schönberger, though.
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ea



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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hejsan Martin!

Martin Gansten wrote:
Mithra6 wrote:
Are there any English translations of Valens other than Project Hindsight?

Not to my knowledge (I would be very interested to learn of any such). There is a fairly recent (2004) German translation by Knobloch and Schönberger, though.


Have you read it? If so, does it differ very much from the English translation?

Erna
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sasha_i



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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

There is also a translation of the first volume of Anthology in French
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ea wrote:
Hejsan Martin!

Very Happy Nice to see you here.

Quote:
Quote:
There is a fairly recent (2004) German translation by Knobloch and Schönberger, though.

Have you read it? If so, does it differ very much from the English translation?

I have read parts of it, but too little of Schmidt's translation to make any real comparison possible. Both seem to suffer from over-literalism, though. Considering Schmidt's surname, I wonder if this is a pan-German trait! A German Sanskrit professor once told me: 'In this country we have a tradition of sticking so close to the original that you need to know Sanskrit to understand the translation.' Wink
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ea



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Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:

I have read parts of it, but too little of Schmidt's translation to make any real comparison possible. Both seem to suffer from over-literalism, though. Considering Schmidt's surname, I wonder if this is a pan-German trait! A German Sanskrit professor once told me: 'In this country we have a tradition of sticking so close to the original that you need to know Sanskrit to understand the translation.' Wink


Thank you, Martin, what a relief. It looks like I won't have to read the German version after all Very Happy These days I prefer to read these texts in English as my German is getting a bit rusty. And as you imply, the English version can be challenging enough. Confused
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Deb
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you to Steven and others for the new contributions to this thread. I am still looking at this and my mind is quite open. I can understand that the suggestion has been accepted as credible and probable by many; but I am still a little uncomfortable that Wikopedia has turned the suggestion into an historical fact regarding his life-span. The suggestion may be probable but there is also a chance that it is completely wrong, and it could cause confusion which affects the dating of other documents. So I think it is safer to keep this tabbed as a speculated horoscope for Valens.
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Philip Graves



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Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:

There is a fairly recent (2004) German translation by Knobloch and Schönberger, though.


This sounds interesting, Martin, though my German is not really up to scratch presently. It is always fascinating to compare translations (even into different languages) for the semantic and technical conceptions of the translator that they reveal. I have taken the liberty of ordering a copy of the German translation, which at 38 Euros is pretty inexpensive as these things go, presuming that it covers all nine books; and no doubt it will cost a lot more once stocks sell out.

Wolfgang Hubner is due to release a new translation of Manilius into German in the not-too-distant future, I believe - not that this thread concerns Manilius, but on the subject of German translations of ancient astrological texts, the foregoing observation appears at least tangentially relevant.

On the Kroll vs. Pingree issue with regard to the Greek editions of Vettius Valens, I have only seen the Pingree edition so far. It was still just in print and in stock at the publisher a couple of years ago when I started buying up astrological Teubners, but seems to have become very much more expensive on the second-hand market since then. The Kroll edition, surprisingly to me at first, is relatively abundant and cheap second-hand, though perhaps this is as a direct result of scholars preferring Pingree's more up-to-date scholarship and introduction.

The reverse was true of the older and more recent Teubner editions of Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos (under the title 'Apotelesmatica') when I last checked: no copies of the earlier edition, while the more recent edition circa 1998 edited by Hubner was abundant.

I tend to favour the later editions of Teubners on the assumption that the original texts will have been better collated and the commentaries expanded, and forego the earlier ones as unnecessary extravagances; but I feel that where an earlier edition comes complete with unique commentary it may be worth investigating even if the text itself is inferior, and Manilius, with its long history of different scholarly editions, is perhaps a particular case in point here, with earlier editions by Scaliger, Bentley and Housman all being noted for their different commentaries. But I digress....

Best wishes,

Philip
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Clelia Romano



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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Deb and other friends:

For a coincidence I arrived at you message after having wrote to Mark Rilley with my congratulations for his work on Valens. I was searching for confirmations in relation to an article I am writing on a technique of Valens of which I never heard about. Riley points that Liber Hermetis has a similar technique, and I went to the text doing a research... but it is not the same thing. Now I know that no astrologer have explained that specific technique, and it is for that kind of things that I find Valens an eternal surprise.
I didn't ask exactly as he knew that it was the real chart of Valens , but it seems probable, because there are some characteristics in the chart that correspond with known fact of his story: for instance his mother's died early and the hypothetical chart has the Moon in Scorpio in the house 4 observed by Saturn in Cancer.. Other times Valens puts the Moon in the third house, but it is the same chart that he uses with whole signs or dynamical houses. Besides this, it is a chart that doesn't possess any planet with dignity: the Sun is in detriment, in the sixth house, that Zoller attributes to skills, but anyway it is a weak chart respecting fame. We know that the Sun below the horizon cuts the fame in a half, unless it is in the fifth house. Valens is almost totally unknown comparing to Ptolemy and he wrote a beautiful work that according to estimates (for the dates of the contained charts) took long 20 years to be written. Also the fact that presumably she died with 55 years old, more or less fits, because using the method of Ascension Arcs, between Mars in the ASC and Saturn has 60 degrees approximately, but we don't know exactly the longitude of Mars and that of the ASC, the same for Saturn.
It is a night chart and the lords of the triplicity are Mars for the first part of the life (ASC and regent of the house of the Moon), Venus for second part (it improves that part when Valens went to Egypt and wrote the Anthologiae). Venus is in the 5th house in its joy.
The Moon is in the third house (it could be in joy, but for whole signs it is in the fourth house). Now, the third part of his life practically didn't exist. The first two parts were more operative, when at 35 he traveled to Egypt, in the triplicity of Venus ruling the 9th.
Riley translated the whole work but it is not satisfied because there are problems, they lack pieces, etc: I offered to buy books 8 and 9, not translated by the PH, but he doesn't have trust to pass them ahead. He doesn't seem to be an astrologer, since he doesn't know about the translation done by the PH: he imagined it was a translation into the Modern Greek. Maybe for that he doesn't worry in giving a date of birth: he will not use it for anything.

have a good Sunday all of you!

Clelia Romano
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Deb
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Celia

Thanks for the contribution to the discussion. I find your comments very interesting. (They would have been especially interesting if you had got, and then translated books 8 & 9 ! Smile )

Quote:
Valens is almost totally unknown comparing to Ptolemy and he wrote a beautiful work that according to estimates (for the dates of the contained charts) took long 20 years to be written.


I have a certain reservation on this point. I think Valens did achieve fame, because he is referred to by many other astrologers. I also don't think he can be directly compared with Ptolemy, because Ptolemy was the leading astronomical authority of his day, and one of the most important authorities on all forms of natural science. Hence Ptolemy's writings directly impacted upon commonly agreed notions of science, so it is only natural that his work received more attention throughout history. And I don't think we can assume that it took Valens 20 long years to write his book because the charts span 20 years. Most of us who have 20+ years of experience have chart examples that span that period. If I was to write a book on horary it will include demonstration charts that go back to the late 1980s. This shows I have 20 years experience in that subject, but not that I would take 20 years to put the book together.

I've always considered it likely that much of that work would have been translated or reproduced from older texts, copied out and demonstrated by up to date chart examples. That seems to have been the case for most of the ancient texts we possess. I'm not sure how that fits with the theory that the speculated chart is that of the author of the work though, so I am very open to the discussion.

Best regards
Deb
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