Which software did you test?

Sorry, it has been many years. But I remember that somebody created a software based on this system.

Well, if in your experience it works, and in mine it doesn?t, I don?t know in what grounds we can discuss it :-)

But, let?s assume you are right and I am wrong, there is two great problems in my opinion, even if it works.

1 - as Steven commented, the author "fits" aspects that don?t really have any real symbolism of the event just because they happened at "the right time".

See for instance page 20: "there has no attempt at identifying and retaining only "appropriate aspects". The converse direction As opp venus for "invades Poland" would have probably been eliminated had we retained only aspects we believe were "appropriate". Yet, that particular As opp Venus aspect exactly identifies the lenght of Hitler?s life."

Here we have exactly all the problems that Steven has commented about, with the author taking great pride of not knowing why the direction showed the invasion of poland, based only on the timing of the direction. This paragraph, in reality, was the reason why I eventually dismissed this work as hindsight astrology. It doesn?t fit my criteria and expectations of good astrological prediction technique (and of rectification as well).

2 - As the "velocity" was variable, that was a huge problem in my experiences with the program. Usually you would have to wait untill the person died to have a clear estimation of the velocity of the Life Span Revolution. Again this is useful for hindsight astrology, but for prediction seems to be of little use, as we have almost no "out-of sample" events to investigate.

Best regards

While I fully support the pursuit of perfecting rectifications, I think we need to be realistic and practical.

The primary reason we do astrology is to make predictions. The primary reason we rectify is to make even more accurate predictions. In order to make predictions, we need to have recognized indicators for an event. If we rectify a chart for a dead person, we can't predict. It's all hindsight. While a dead person's chart can be instructive, at the end of the day we tweaked a chart to fit already-known events.

Let me repeat what I said above: in order to predict, we need understandable indicators. Otherwise, there is no way you can look at a particular aspect or other indicator and predict an event. For instance, I can simply look at a direction of Saturn for a wedding date, even if that date fits if Saturn has nothing to do with matrimony. Traditional sources say that death can be shown by directions of the killing planet. Let's say death happens on March 1st and the killing planet of a chart is Mars. If I see a direction for March 1st and the directed planet is Venus, why would I say ahead of time the person will die then? No astrologer can be expected to make that kind of prediction. Maybe Bonatti was wrong. However, even if he's wrong, we still need an indicator. It has to make sense first.

The primary reason we do astrology is to make predictions. The primary reason we rectify is to make even more accurate predictions. In order to make predictions, we need to have recognized indicators for an event. If we rectify a chart for a dead person, we can't predict. It's all hindsight. While a dead person's chart can be instructive, at the end of the day we tweaked a chart to fit already-known events.

Amen to that!

We should separate rectification as an important tool for prediction, from rectification as a discussion topic, made by hindsight astrology, that never gives anything but heated flame wars about celebrities that already died!

We should separate rectification as an important tool for prediction, from rectification as a discussion topic, made by hindsight astrology, that never gives anything but heated flame wars about celebrities that already died!

I don't agree here

Why we should be so involved with prediction?
Prediction could be important if we are casting a chart for our clients or friends, but why we should make prediction for people we don't know and don't ask?


On the other hand, charts of famous people are very interesting to me because events tend to be stronger in celebrities life, and in this case we can more easily check if techniques work or not.

Personally, there is nothing more boring to me to cast a chart of the friend's friend mother in law, inventing about their psyche.

And on the other hand Renaissance books are full of charts of dead people, it's obvious because it's the better way to show how astrology works.

Then obviously, there is a moment for everything in life and if need we should cast a chart for a client, or an horary....

margherita

Hello Steven, I'm not sure we are in disagreement, just different words.

steven wrote:
Well, I'm not sure I agree at all with this. Are you going to tell me that events in my life are not as strong as events in a celebrities life? I have personally built 3 orphanages, two in the former Soviet Union and one in Brasil! They have changed the lives of thousands. Just because it doesn't make the "world news" doesn't mean it is not as strong or influential as any celebrity! There are thousands of people, little people, who go through life "changing the world" in their little corner of the world. Just because you don't know about it does not diminish the quality or strength of the event.

I never meant this obviously. And it's very beautiful hear what you did.
It takes a lot of heart try to do the world a better place because it's very easier to stay in silence and take things for granted.
Manzoni in his masterpiece Promessi Sposi explains this very clearly.

I just meant that GENERALLY life of people is not like that, they are quieter and their life is made of quieter events.

Famous people live very fast on the other hand, and it's easier to know about them.

Secondly, since neither you nor I know these celebrities personally and have first hand knowledge of events in their lives, there is no way in heaven or hell we can accurately check anything. We only see what the media tells us, which I have very little faith in its accuracy. I often hear and read quite conflicting accounts of celbrities lives all the time. We only see the surface but not the chain of events except on very rare occasions.

But we need just dates and event, we don't try to read in their psyche. I'm not a psychologist, I'm not interested in their family complex, Oedipus and so on...I'm sure the same for many here.

As far as why we should use prediction it is simply because it is the "proof of the pudding" as we say in English. My clients would stop using my service if all I did was look in retrospect at their lives.

What I tried to tell, maybe I was not clear. We need to do predictions for our clients, and horaries.
But studying chart after events helps us to see if we are using the right tools.

Prediction isn't about the psyche, that is modern astrology. Traditional prediction is people like David Hernandez stepping up and accurately predicting things in his own country and that makes a difference.

Exactly what I believe, there is no Liz Greene for you or David or Deborah or other traditional astrologers.

.

For myself I find it much more exciting working with everyday people, little people the apples at the bottom of the barrel that hold up the nice shiny apples at the top. They are the ones whose lives make astrology come alive!

I don't want that people would believe I despise ordinary people. Myself I'm very ordinary and very quiet. And I never thought that celebrities are better than us.

Never I would change my life with Michael Jackson or Silvio Berlusconi life...I just meant that sometimes it's useful to study their chart as demonstration.

It was Cardano who invented booklets of famous nativities and everybody liked the idea and copied him-

Hope I was clearer,

margherita

Hello,

Maybe someone can explain.

I don't get the difference in whether the person is alive or dead having any fundamental importance relative to rectification and/or the confirmation thereof.

Example:

If Bob is still alive and we take the events of his life up to this point and rectify his chart. Using that rectified chart, we see corresponding aspects with several events later in his life. (whether it is predicted or not is irrelevant, as either the symbols are correct or they aren't)

Now, if Bob were DEAD, and we took the events in his life up to 1990 and rectified his natal chart and used THAT to correctly "predict" many events from the remaining 12 years of his life post 1990, what is the difference?

Alive or dead, predicted or not; if the SAMPLE events lead to a rectification and that rectification then fits appropriate symbology to other events (not used in the rectification) in the life. How is that not the same confirmation?

James

yuzuru Quote:
Well, if in your experience it works, and in mine it doesn?t, I don?t know in what grounds we can discuss it :-)

You are right, we can not discuss about our knowing from experiences. Because you don't know why it works for me, and I don't know why it did not work for you. (':?')
This, or we both, would need another way of communication. It needs the understanding of using the "material" and so on. So the forum would be the wrong medium. ('') - But this was not my intension. - Anyway I think the LVsP from Ross Harvey is not really a module for doing correction, because it works only by person which have arrived the age of 21 ore more. But please reconsider, that the symbols in this kind of "Horoscopes" is different than to other kinds of Horoscopes. You remember to the comparing of languages?
And it also important that you have a correct Horoscope, because you work by this technic "only" with MC and AS. Don' forget one, the hole Lifespan is the movement by 360? from AS and/or MC. You need the correct AS/MC, or it does not "work".
I have had mention this Module, because of controlling for a finished rectification with different Systems, which are based on other rules than my system. I think, that astrology works with a lot of (still unknown) rules, and not only one. And they are connected together in still unknown kinds. Example: Astrology works on/with two basically regularity:
First by an mathematical. You divine the Ecliptic, you find out the correct "place" whit mathematical instruments. Also with mathematical instruments you find the place of Antiscies etc.. But the meaning from an planet or a sensitive point you specify by a kind of an analog system! Venus stand analog for money, women, mother etc. Also when you will declare a situation you use a analog system: Houses and the ruler of a house. But this is not in every Horoscope the same planet. This is always changing! -This is an old system. But is this the only working system? No! There are more astrological languages! They are keyed. Still we have to find the keys. So one System works in that way, as it is using the planet with the meanings as General significator and also the mathematical system by using Antiscies and mathematical proportion from two or more Planets. In other words this is called Half-sum and so on. Placidus was this using in primaries called mundan parallels and rapt parallels. _ So we can use the pure symbolic of the Planets in connection to another planet by mathematical order. Old astrology is using this by aspects, modern astrology is this using by Midpoints and sensitive points. But stop, the Old one have had also sensitive points: The lots! So we can see overlaps or a corresponding!

Now I will come to the conclusion: I think we can not be sure by using a mainly analog system for correction. To much hypothetic points. But with a "modern" use of mathematical symbolic we have more logic explanations, and when this is really working (I don't belief, I am sure, I tested it) than it is an enrichment. That does not condemn the old knowledge and experiences.
I am happy that I can use so many systems. For fast working I use the (for me) most effective one, but also I am looking to the same problem than in other kinds of astrology. But I could not start in this kind of astrology!

Example: do you know a (classical) technic by knowing only place and birthdate and one event, and you be able to find out the birth-time?
Try to get proofed birth-certifications, Then make a blind-study, in meaning of not knowing the real birth-time and find out with one important event the birth-time.
So you can proof a system, when the astrologer also is able to mastery his knowledge and trade.
But when you have the birth time, you can use any system and see if you can find with this the same analogy, or if it is comply with event.

I have usual weekly meetings with other astrologers, which are learned the the (modern) classic astrology, as we use in Vienna. But also every one has his own special system. So one prefer the method of D?bereiner (Rhytmenlehre), an other one is using Witte, ...
(By the way, if you want to see very fast was is going on in any horoscope, the technic of D?bereiner is fascinating!)
So we work together by looking for events or Horoscopes but also by different style of technics. This gives the possibility for insights into astrology!

Wolfgang

CentralScrutinizer wrote:Hello,

Maybe someone can explain.

I don't get the difference in whether the person is alive or dead having any fundamental importance relative to rectification and/or the confirmation thereof.

Ok I'm going to issue a clarification before I begin. I am going to pick on Dr. H's Rectification book a little bit, but I don't want any mistake to be made. I fully support him and will buy his PD book when it comes out. I think he's an excellent astrologer, so please don't take this personally. I'm using an example of his in his rectification book to illustrate what I am talking about. I just happen to disagree with this one idea.

Traditional astrologers say that death can be shown by directing the ASC or hyleg to the killing planet. The killing planet is found through making a table and finding the most dignified planet of a certain group of degrees.

Abraham Lincoln, according to Dr. H's rectified chart is Sag ASC, and the hyleg is the Moon. The killing planet table shows Saturn as the killing planet.

Dr. H shows a rectified direction of Lincoln's death date minus 5 days of Venus conjunct the Moon. While this looks significant and interesting considering Lincoln's killer was an actor and the Moon is the hyleg, how would an astrologer predict this as death? The answer is they couldn't. There is nothing shown in that direction that shows a death. It shows a Venusian event affecting his body, but not necessarily a death. Venus isn't the killing planet and isn't even close. It could also mean Lincoln would contract a venereal disease at that time.

Of course the (early) traditional astrologers could be wrong, and if they are, we need clear indicators to look for. I don't think there is an astrologers amongst us who, if Lincoln walked into our office with that chart, would've looked at it and said "at around April 15th you will die". Now in retrospect it all fits. For prediction, not so much.

edit: I'm actually fascinated by this subject, but I'm approaching this with normal clients in mind. I want to make accurate predictions for clients I personally interact with. This means blind prediction. This is why I want to get this nailed.

Mithra6 wrote: Ok I'm going to issue a clarification before I begin. I am going to pick on Dr. H's Rectification book a little bit ...

This was a book that I bought with high hopes and was throughly dissappointed.

Mithra6 wrote: Abraham Lincoln, according to Dr. H's rectified chart is Sag ASC, and the hyleg is the Moon. The killing planet table shows Saturn as the killing planet.

Dr. H shows a rectified direction of Lincoln's death date minus 5 days of Venus conjunct the Moon. While this looks significant and interesting considering Lincoln's killer was an actor and the Moon is the hyleg, how would an astrologer predict this as death?

Actually, this was a funny part, as an actor would definitely be signified by Saturn. Venus I'd see as more a woman or maybe a religious fanatic? Don't think that John Wilkes Booth was a religious fanatic, though; but it is interesting, as he was a very famous actor of the time, along with his brother, who went by another surname IIRC. It would be like Obama being done in by Tom Cruise.

CentralScrutinizer wrote:Hello,

Maybe someone can explain.

I don't get the difference in whether the person is alive or dead having any fundamental importance relative to rectification and/or the confirmation thereof.

Example:

If Bob is still alive and we take the events of his life up to this point and rectify his chart. Using that rectified chart, we see corresponding aspects with several events later in his life. (whether it is predicted or not is irrelevant, as either the symbols are correct or they aren't)

Now, if Bob were DEAD, and we took the events in his life up to 1990 and rectified his natal chart and used THAT to correctly "predict" many events from the remaining 12 years of his life post 1990, what is the difference?

Alive or dead, predicted or not; if the SAMPLE events lead to a rectification and that rectification then fits appropriate symbology to other events (not used in the rectification) in the life. How is that not the same confirmation?

James

James:
The main problem is in the word "fit". You and I know what that means; we know that only in primary directions in Topocentric system there is perfect corresponding of the appropriate symbolism to the event with very small orbs and that we never use one event and never use only one system. No matter how our primary directions are perfect, we always use other systems for corroboration. The problem is that other astrologers claims that in their methods, be it other system of primary, solar arc, profections or whatever, there is a perfect corresponding and the event "fits" to the aspects in the system they are using.
In my post from 20 May in the thread on James Randi, I gave 10 events with the primary directions in Topocentric for Prince Charles and ask if someone can find out other system that can produced appropriate aspects with so small orbs, using any other rectified birth time (but of course it must be close enough to the recorded birth time). The question of orbs is very crucial. See in Alexander Marr's article "How exact must we be" (in Prediction III).
But most astrologers don't want to learn our methods.
So, what is the solution?
1. As Tom stated, predictions is the best way to prove the correctness of rectification but many astrologers think that once we have a precise rectified birth time we can easily predict. It is certainly not easy at all and I already discussed this point.
2. The best way of course is that the after the rectification was published, the birth certificate will be found out. If one day the birth certificate of MJ will be published, if it will fit my rectification. +/- some minutes that will be a strong proof, and if it will not fit, I will not hesitate to admit in failure. No one is infallible.

Responding to a number of comments in this thread

Labalance

Worth emphasizing are a few points that Steven made.

1. A birth certificate time presented to the exact minute is likely to be robust and requires little or no modification by rectification.

If a birth certificate is presented with a time not rounded off to the nearest half hour, like yours at 6:24 AM, it is probably highly accurate. Any error is due to clock error or recording error. These issues can be magnified when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth, Mercury is combust, or malefics fall in the 12th house which describe the conditions immediately prior to birth which can be indicative of problems in delivery. Without any of these conditions, the 6:24 AM time should be fairly solid, perhaps off a minute or so. If off by a small bit, you should notice a consistent pattern that projected event dates mismatch actual life event dates by roughly 3 months per each minute the time is off (using solar arc directions). With primary directions, it will depend on whether the Ascendant falls in a sign of long or short ascension. Generally speaking, Ascendants of short ascension like Pisces are more difficult to rectify because the Ascendant moves very quickly and is extremely sensitive to the birth time.

2. Any rectification must match the precise delineation of the significators and promittors to the directions (or any other dynamic method) proposed.

The modern tendency to accumulate a large number of ?hits? to the angles without specifying how those directions might match the delineation of the significators is the hoodoo of many modern rectification software modules. In addition, not all events are shown by directions to the angles. Dynamic activity to the lots can cause significant life events without any measurements to the angles. See my post in the separate Rectification Challenge thread for examples of this.

3. Any rectification must be tested on an out-of-sample basis.

For living clients, I prefer to test a rectification for a year before declaring it sound. You can see an example of out-of-sample tests applied to the nativity of Obama on my site to get an idea of how this works. If the rectification proves wrong, then go back and try again.

James/Margherita/Steven

On the relevance of rectifying historical figures. People familiar with my work know that I spend a lot of time working on historical figures. Like everybody learning astrology, I am interested in studying accurate charts. I have been disappointed at quality of Rodden AA rated charts; finding as many as 10-15% of them to have the incorrect Ascendant. So I started working on charts of American Presidents to develop a research database. Also because nobody had ever made an attempt at rectifying the American Presidents with traditional methods.

I agree with Margherita that before techniques can be reliably applied to existing figures (for clients and others) that they need solid confirmation. While one can test past event of living clients and others; studying rectified historical charts offers another perspective.

As Steven mentioned, choosing to study ?celebrity? charts poses special risks given the ability of the media and celebrity handlers to manage celebrity reputation. But I see this much less of a problem for heads of state for whom multiple biographies exist (at least in the United States). Or just use a well-defined critical biography on anyone. There are thousands available. Then there is the considerable amount of time required to study historical figures. It?s been a luxury afforded to me which is practically unavailable for many astrologers dealing with clients on a full-time basis.

James mentions testing rectifications for historical figures by basing the rectification on events up to a certain cutoff date, then using the balance of life history in an out-of-sample test. That?s very logical and an acceptable practice. Occasionally, one can go farther and test rectified charts for deceased individuals against current events. I listed a number of examples of posthumous events in the Afterword to A Rectification Manual which demonstrate this possibility. More recently I have been working through charts for American spree killers. In several cases, I found that dates of movie debuts on the subject of the killer released after death were often timed by directions/transits of planets/Nodes to the MC degree.

Mithra6

Regarding Lincoln?s arcus vitae. You might be interested that rechecking directions for American Presidents with the completely revamped Janus 4.2 primary directions module that the following Saturn-Moon direction emerges:

23-May-1865. Saturn (lat=0) c. => Moon (lat=0). Method of Ptolemy

This is 5 weeks late but if you look at other latitude permutations, you can also find:

5-Jan-1862. Saturn (lat=Saturn) c. => Moon (lat=Moon). Method of Ptolemy

Using the primary direction sequence concept, Lincoln basically had an active Saturn-Moon primary direction for the duration of the Civil War. Switching to Regiomontanus or trying other latitude options yields similar results. War exhausts anybody. As an astrologer looking at this in advance would have predicted extreme melancholy/depression during this time period. Photographs of Lincoln taken during these years demonstrate a marked physical deterioration.

In addition to the Saturn-Moon direction detailed here; also active was the sinister sextile of Mars directed to the Sun by converse motion. Depending on whether one uses Ptolemy or Regiomontanus with various latitude options, the projected due dates of this direction range from 3-Sep-1863 to 10-May-1866 with one of the Regiomontanus directions due 26-Apr-1865. This is an error of 11 days. Note for this direction the Distributor will either be Saturn/Sagittarius or Mars/Sagittarius depending on the latitude option for the Distributor.

Then there is the Venus-Moon direction which I propose is the most accurate arcus vitae because it times assassination within 5 days. Moon is the hilaj; Venus signifies the actor/assassin Booth.

You raise the question of predicting death for Lincoln in advance because Venus was not the high scoring killing planet. Predicting longevity is a difficult question but one starts with the Al-kadukadah which for Lincoln which is roughly 57 years depending on how one handles the contribution of years by Venus, if any. He died at age 56 years 2 months 2 days; this is a fairly accurate result for Lincoln. Zoller also mentioned that individuals whose Al-kadukadah is Saturn rarely live beyond 57 years, or if they do to prepare for an above average level of health problems.

In missing Venus as the high scoring killing planet, recall I used the 8th house, the 8th house sign ruler, and the 8th house triplicity ruler when constructing the al-mubtazz table. Please note I mention on page 516 of A Rectification Manual that had one used the 4th house instead of the 8th house when constructing the al-mubtazz table Venus would have scored much higher. I chose to stick with the 8th house because I found better results over a larger sample. Zoller taught to use the 4th house in his course. In general you will find differences of opinions on methods for constructing al-mubtazz tables; even whether they were or should be constructed at all! I am the first to publish several dozen examples of the arcus vitate with fully worked out al-mubtazz tables for killing planets. Once I have computed 200 of them, I will have another look and may tweak their construction. But this is what I am using at the present and the results are fairly robust. Also keep in mind that when either Node is placed in the 8th, it often trumps the high scoring killing planet as the empirical killer. Then there are situations when either luminary directed to the angles can kill (such as the Moon directed to the Ascendant).

The bottom line is that the al-mubtazz table I present for killing planets is a model and it is not infallible. We also need to focus on the Directing through the Bounds technique; an important tool which for all practical purposes has only been available through software releases in the last few months. I am speaking of Morinus and Placidus. Janus has also completely revamped their primary directions module and plans to add the bounds as Distributors in a future software update.

You might also be interested in learning of the thesis advocated by Dr. John Sotos in 2007 that Lincoln suffered from a rare genetic disorder named multiple endocrine neopasia, type 2B (MEN2B). Sotos claims this condition would have killed him had he not been shot. I claim no expertise in medical astrology, yet note that Venus/Aries rules the 6th of illness by whole sign houses. Venus is assigned to the neck which houses the hormone-producing thyroid. It is possible that Lincoln's afflicted Venus was responsible for the medical condition proposed by Sotos. Separately, it would also go along way to explaining how an oriental Saturn could still produce Lincoln's skinny appearance; a feature inconsistent with the additional flesh on the body promised by an oriental Saturn. This is a topic which came up when discussing Lincoln's temperament on a separate thread. If Sotos is correct, then an oriental Saturn/Sagittarius might have given Lincoln a body which was initially more fleshy; but Venus/Aries as a significator for hyperthyroidism (my speculation) could have led to weight loss and Lincoln's skinny physique.

Gabe

On Venus/Aries as a significator for the actor/assassin John Wilkes Booth rather than Saturn as you suggest. Am curious as to your reasoning for Saturn as significator for an actor. I have not seen acting listed as a professional significator for Saturn. For Venus, this is fairly easy to find taking Lilly for example who lists ?players? as one type of person signified by Venus.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/venus_att.html#9back

I interpret ?players? as ?actors/actresses? and stand corrected if I have misinterpreted Lilly?s English. For Lincoln, Venus falls in the sign of Aries, a male sign, in the 5th house of pleasure. I delineate Booth as a male actor which was a source of entertainment for Lincoln who also happened to kill him. Then there is the nativity of Booth himself (b. 10-May-1838 no time) which recapitulates the placement with Venus in the 4th degree of Aries.

RegulusAstrology wrote: Gabe

On Venus/Aries as a significator for the actor/assassin John Wilkes Booth rather than Saturn as you suggest. Am curious as to your reasoning for Saturn as significator for an actor. I have not seen acting listed as a professional significator for Saturn. For Venus, this is fairly easy to find taking Lilly for example who lists ?players? as one type of person signified by Venus.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/venus_att.html#9back

I interpret ?players? as ?actors/actresses? and stand corrected if I have misinterpreted Lilly?s English. For Lincoln, Venus falls in the sign of Aries, a male sign, in the 5th house of pleasure. I delineate Booth as a male actor which was a source of entertainment for Lincoln who also happened to kill him. Then there is the nativity of Booth himself (b. 10-May-1838 no time) which recapitulates the placement with Venus in the 4th degree of Aries.

Admittedly, I'm getting this from Valens, who lists Kronos (Saturn) as governing those who have a false appearance, which actors, by pretending they are other people, are doing. Ptolemy, of course, has to complicate this by giving actors to Mercury and Venus when they both signify the actions of the native, and this signification is again confirmed when they are both testified to (applying by aspect or conjunction) Saturn.

As for Venus in Aries, I would think more likely a fanatic, in Boothe's case, someone who seeks to purify (Venus) through public execution (Mars). So maybe the use of Venus as a "Destroyer" is not unwarrented, though it would be more genuinely malefic if she were a lord of a bad place or maltreated by the malefics.