31
Of course I'm right
Of course. How stupid of me to express myself in a manner which could suggest otherwise :)

But I do think - personally - that the text is talking about the quality of being a hypocrite, rather than the profession of acting. I'm interested because the idea of being in the entertainment industry or making a career as some sort of 'showman' doesn't seem very Saturn-like.

Thanks for taking the time to give me the ref I asked for.

Deb

32
Thanks Regulus! That was a very clear description. Only Uranus and Pluto in the twelfth, but my Mercury is retrograde. So perhaps it is off a bit. I'll have to learn a bit more and try some of these techniques.

33
Deb, I would agree about the 'showman' part not being Saturn-like, probably more Mercury-like, but that an actor is not a showman, per se. Confluent but differing skill sets, IMO.

But it's probably something more complicated than only one planet may provide.

You're welcome! :D
Gabe

Ptolemy's pre-natal epoch

35
It seems I've been able to zero-in on birthtimes of OBSERVED births by using this formula.

Has anyone had any success with this? I'm skeptical of using it for anything else, but I have gotten a good picture with births I've seen.

It was in a book that came across my lap...I forget which one. I wrote the formula down in a notebook.

36
Couple of comments to wind this down

Gabe said:

"As for Venus in Aries, I would think more likely a fanatic, in Boothe's case, someone who seeks to purify (Venus) through public execution (Mars). So maybe the use of Venus as a "Destroyer" is not unwarrented, though it would be more genuinely malefic if she were a lord of a bad place or maltreated by the malefics."

Dr. H. => I agree with your characterization of Venus/Aries as purification through public execution. Booth appears to have had a strong choleric streak as evidenced by his skill in on-stage sword fighting. The Wiki reference indicates he was known to have cut himself on occasion.

By whole sign houses in my rectification, Sag rising, Venus rules the 6th of slaves. Venus also separates from Saturn and applies to Mars who rules the 12th. Though the aspect is wide, Venus/Aries does oppose Mars/Libra; both planets in detriment in what Bob Hand described as 'mutual deception.' Venus is definitely maltreated here.

LaBalance

Let me give you an example of what can happen to an apparently accurate recorded to-the-minute birth certificate when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth. Here is an example I mention in A Rectification Manual, p. 291. For a birth time of '5:32 PM' the actual rectified time was 5:22:30 PM. My guess is that the presence of Mercury-retrograde caused the recorder to reverse the digits from 5:23 to 5:32. The rectified time was within one minute of the posited 5:23 birth time incorrectly recorded as 5:32. Please note I am not suggesting that you flip the minute digits in your own case. I am just giving an example of the kind of error which is possible when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth.

Now there is obviously some speculation here on my part which others may or may not agree with. But the bottom line is that if you want to use directions as a predictive technique then you need to experiment with rectification because the projected event date from a direction moves roughly 1 year for every four minutes the birth time is in error.

Also keep in mind that there are many other robust predictive techniques like Fidaria, Directing by Triplicity, and Profections which do not require split second accuracy. Sometimes in a quest for an accurate birth time (for directions) we lose site of these other techniques which can prove just as powerful as directions in prediction.
Dr. H.
World Class Research in Medieval Predictive Astrology
www.regulus-astrology.com

37
Obviously I haven't spent as much time as I should have on this thread, but I thought I'd bring up something of interest regarding a quote from Dr. H.
You might also be interested in learning of the thesis advocated by Dr. John Sotos in 2007 that Lincoln suffered from a rare genetic disorder named multiple endocrine neopasia, type 2B (MEN2B). Sotos claims this condition would have killed him had he not been shot.
What struck me about this was recalling that JFK, whose assassination has been compared to Lincoln's so often, had a medical condition that might have killed him at a relatively young age as well. Kennedy had Addsion's disease, an endocrine or hormonal disorder. At one point, while a very young man, Kennedy was given the last rites of the Roman Catholic Church while ill with this condition Although this is no longer the practice, when Kennedy was young the last rites were only given when the patient was at death's door. In 2009 it is possible that the condition might not be as serious as it was in the l930s and 40s.

The disease is caused by a lack of production of the hormone cortisol by the adrenal glands. The adrenal glands are located on the kidneys. The kidneys are ruled by Venus. Using the traditional 3:00 PM birth time for Kennedy, Taurus is on the 8th and Libra rises, both ruled by Venus. Using Dr, H's rectified time for Kennedy, Libra still ascends but 1 Gemini is on the 8th (Alchabitius Semi arc favored by Dr. H). Mercury is in Taurus. Using Regiomontanus, Taurus is on the 8th. Both the Sun and Venus occupy the 8th using Alchabitius. As stated above. Venus rules the kidneys, and according to Richard Saunders, the flesh. The flesh darkens with Addison's disease.

Gemini, again according to Saunders, rules "corrupted blood." Take that for what it's worth in this case. Regardless of what time or signs or house system we use, Kennedy's condition is shown in the house of death - never a good sign.

I agree with your characterization of Venus/Aries as purification through public execution.
I sure hope this isn't true.

Tom

38
If a birth certificate is presented with a time not rounded off to the nearest half hour, like yours at 6:24 AM, it is probably highly accurate. Any error is due to clock error or recording error. These issues can be magnified when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth, Mercury is combust, or malefics fall in the 12th house which describe the conditions immediately prior to birth which can be indicative of problems in delivery. Without any of these conditions, the 6:24 AM time should be fairly solid, perhaps off a minute or so.
I thought I'd throw in my first-hand experience about the reliability of birth times on birth certificates.

The birth of my first child was one of the most memorable experiences of my life, and I was not doped up or otherwise impaired. At the moment of the birth, a nurse specifically assigned to note the time hollered "5:23 AM." Being an astrologer, I glanced at the large clock in the delivery room to make sure she had it right. Yep. I remember this with extreme clarity, perhaps because I have four planets in Cancer.

There was a recording error, though and her birth certificate says my daughter was born at 5:32.

The only reason I mention this is that none of the factors that might lead one to question the time was in effect. Mercury was direct and not combust, there were no malefics in the twelfth house, and the time was a precise number.

As a result, I am a bit skeptical of the birth time on a given birth certificate and will check it by seeing if progressions track closely to past events in the person's life.

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Hello Ellen,

Thank you for your comments.

It supports my opinion, which is that ALL charts should be rectified.

The "chart" is the First Cause... if there is an error in that, that error has the potential to propagate through all that follows!

As an example... my own birth certificate says "6:18 am". An article in the local newspaper also listed the 6:18 am birth time. All through growing up, 6:18 am was firmly stuck in my mind.

Using not so exact methods (meaning transits, solar arcs, secondary progressions), over time it became obvious that my birth was at least a minute earlier. For some time, I used the 6:17 am birthtime and was confident that it was more correct than 6:18, but still felt only that 6:17 am was the CLOSEST MINUTE to when I was born.

Now, using other methods, IN WHICH SECONDS OF BIRTHTIME-CHANGE EQUATE TO ASPECTS BEING PITCHED MUCH FURTHER (forward or backward) IN TIME (example, over two months shift in aspect maturity for only a 38 second birthtime change); it's possible by lining up those Events and getting the birthtime down to seconds. With that done, my final birthtime turns out to be 6:16:44.

For transits, that's not much difference... 6:16:44 versus 6:18 (from Birth Certificate); HOWEVER, for exacting methods like Topocentric Primary Directions, the original 6:18 time gives DRASTICALLY ERRONEOUS RESULTS for the aspects coincident with Events in my life. Making that little, 1 minute & 16 seconds earlier, time change and suddenly, the symbolism MATCHES the events and to VERY FEW MINUTES ARC AS ORB!!!

If you're using approximate dynamic systems, it still should be considered NECESSARY to get the chart to the nearest minute. Though keep in mind that there is more precision both in birthtime and in dynamic systems available...

I guess the question with regard to "assuming" (any) birthtimes is... HOW SLOPPY DO YOU WANT TO BE?

Central Scrutinizer

40
For transits, that's not much difference... 6:16:44 versus 6:18 (from Birth Certificate); HOWEVER, for exacting methods like Topocentric Primary Directions, the original 6:18 time gives DRASTICALLY ERRONEOUS RESULTS for the aspects coincident with Events in my life. Making that little, 1 minute & 16 seconds earlier, time change and suddenly, the symbolism MATCHES the events and to VERY FEW MINUTES ARC AS ORB!!!
You're making me even more skeptical. A difference of 1 minute and 16 seconds makes for ?DRASTICALLY ERRONEOUS RESULTS?? Within a lifetime, within a day, 1 minute and 16 seconds is a minute speck of time. It's only a tiny fraction of even an hour. It dearly tries the imagination to see any possible way a symbolic system could meaningfully pinpoint the lengthy birth process down to the second for one instantaneous switch of a life to 'On', and then to drastically alter the astrological symbolism from a birth 1 minute or so later. It's a faith in numbers, numbers that follow in obedient order. This is a faith in clock time, precisely measured time, the numbers of a train schedule that we rely on to get us where we want to go. Modern clock time is where we astrologers put our trust.

I spent some pleasant time outdoors tonight looking at a clear, warm summer sky. A fairly lengthy period of time passed, yet time as a succession of experiential dots became unimportant, unnecessary, irrelevant. It became one stretched moment. I didn't get a sense of any sort of celestial motion that might bring drastic changes. Why would it be any different for a human life that may have been starting during that period? But astrologers don't like stretched moments, they want a regular pace of distinct time units that can be tagged with a logical sequence of numerals. It's all about astrologers.

An astrology that shaves off a minute or so from a birth time and then produces drastically different results ... well, what reality is that describing? Do we really want to live there? Birth is a process. Life is a process. The natal chart is a process. Why do astrologers shun process?

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Hello Kirk,

You raise some interesting points, but rather than trying to reply piece by piece and pick apart the reasoning, I'll try to respond to the whole of your message, in summary...

It is not important how difficult it is to imagine those systems, it is enough that they exist.

Please think of the difference between, SAY, using Mars' motion to rectify versus using the Moon. Okay... now, try to imagine the difference between using the Moon's motion and the motion of the Angles. See how each step produces more "motion" and therefore exactness indicates a tinier slice of time. Now, if we move from the normal systems (transits, solar arcs, progressions) to Topocentric Primary Directions, we are doing a similar thing. Where transits rely (in a basic sense) on the DEGREE positions of the planets (re: accuracy / aspect-maturity), using Topocentric Primary Directions relies on the MINUTES. The ramifications should be fairly obvious.

What I said in my earlier post is correct. Changing the BIRTHTIME by a mere 38 seconds shifted the exact date of an aspect FORWARD by 2 months and 9 days. Think of it in reverse... if we were rectifying this chart and the "events" were 2 months and 9 days from the aspect, lining everything up, just corrected the birthtime by 38 seconds. See?

Now, yes, in real life, we don't rectify from ONE event, let alone one aspect relative to one event, but you get the idea how it fits together.

Isaac's very wonderful Polaris software takes events that you input and it finds the theoretical BEST FITS to the aspects...keeping in mind SMALL ORBS and never-changing symbolism and the appropriateness of Topocentric Primary Directions to Events. The program gives the most likely birthtimes that will "satisfy" the events. Other methods lead to and confirm the exactness of the time.

As for little moments of time and your sky watching example... Life is NOT like that... life IS made up of those tiny discrete moments.

If you are sitting with your best friend eating an icecream for 5 minutes, the WHOLE 5 minutes of joyous icecream fest can be NULLIFIED by one sudden aneurism. That one MOMENT had the potential to flavor ALL THE SURROUNDING TIME...that IS life.

Enjoy....and please, look into Topocentric Primary Directions.

Central Scrutinizer

42
In traditional primary directions (this is the only PD I know), 4 minutes of time equals a year. If a birth time is off a minute, your PDs will be off about 3 months or so. If you aren't using PDs, then a minute won't mean much.