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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
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Chart rectification
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 11:53 pm    Post subject: Chart rectification Reply with quote

Does anyone know of a good book on this subject? Or can answer the question on how to do it? In other words if you know that a person had their parents divorce at the age of 7 and it was traumatic enough that the person ended up living with their grandparents is that sufficient to rectify a chart? Or if a parent died at a certain age, are there any obvious markers?
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rev_rect.html

I do not own this (one day I'll have money to buy, hopefully) but I've read only positive reviews. Goes without saying that in the process of rectification learning you also get acquainted with directions, arcs and progressions delineated and applied, a precious addition to the astrological thecnical understanding.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 924
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Chart rectification Reply with quote

Labalance wrote:
Does anyone know of a good book on this subject? Or can answer the question on how to do it? In other words if you know that a person had their parents divorce at the age of 7 and it was traumatic enough that the person ended up living with their grandparents is that sufficient to rectify a chart? Or if a parent died at a certain age, are there any obvious markers?


I found this feature useful in Kepler software.
http://www.astrosoftware.com/Rectify.htm
First question is how accurate is your birth time e.g :from certificate, diary.
Second,plan to correct it by a few minutes only.
You will need more than a few incidents in each aspect of life to be comfortable with rectification.
Events to self like Accidents, relocation,marriage date etc are the best.
http://www.astrosoftware.com/Rectify.htm

PD
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Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3183
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Or can answer the question on how to do it? In other words if you know that a person had their parents divorce at the age of 7 and it was traumatic enough that the person ended up living with their grandparents is that sufficient to rectify a chart?


Probably not, but it would be a start. For example in the above case we might expect to see strong indications of a change of residence, i.e. progressions, directions to the 4th cusp or failing that the ruler of the fourth cusp might be determined, but you see the problem, we wouldn't be sure which is correct, if both are available, without other events

Quote:
Or if a parent died at a certain age, are there any obvious markers?


Again if it happened at a young age, look for an early nasty progression that could be to the fourth cusp or its ruler, but again it is only a start. To make one up, let's say that Saturn and Mars both progress to the same point at about the same time. That might be a good indication of the location of the 4th cusp. If they both form a hard aspect by progression to a planet, that might be the ruler of the 4th. If you have a fairly narrow time frame to begin with, then these might narrow it down to a useful chart, but if you're working with no birth time at all, it makes it more difficult.

You might also use solar arc directions in lieu of progressions. But you still need more events for confirmation. The more the better

Tom
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Labalance



Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses everyone. It sounds like a good bit of detective work. The interesting thing to me is I have my birth cert which says I was born at 6:24 am in NY which puts my ascendant at 29 46 degrees Virgo. It's so close to Libra that I have often wondered if it might be wrong. However at the age of four months my mom tried to kill herself and my dad moved us all to California, so I would imagine it might be pretty easy to figure out if the time is correct.
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Martine



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 70
Location: France

Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Labalance

Your birth time seems pretty precise so if any rectification is needed, it is probably very small.

You could start by checking if your ascendant is Virgo or Libra. You could do that by calculating your temperament and, if you get 2 different results, seeing which one suits you best. John Frawley gives a method for this calculation. Dorian Gieseler has written a whole book on this subjet, which I just got. I have not read it yet.

I am rather disappointed by the rectification methods, because when I use different kinds of directions, I get different ages for the same event. I tried the animodar (Ptolemy) but it did not work in my case. I did make a rectification of about 5 minutes using the Trutin of Hermes. But the rectified time does not fit well with the primary directions. So, for the time being, I am keeping the time of the birth certificate.
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Complete Book of Chart Rectification by Carol Tebbs is EXCELLENT. Available on Amazon.

Tara
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martine wrote:


I am rather disappointed by the rectification methods, because when I use different kinds of directions, I get different ages for the same event. I tried the animodar (Ptolemy) but it did not work in my case. I did make a rectification of about 5 minutes using the Trutin of Hermes. But the rectified time does not fit well with the primary directions. So, for the time being, I am keeping the time of the birth certificate.


I assume that you didn't try the primary directions in Topocentric System. See my article in :
www.noeltyl.com/techniques/080531.html
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 922
Location: Netherlands

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the feeling that transits often show a 'peak' during exactness. However nothing particular happens on such a day/ or in the period around it, but it is rather a change of mood.

Just checking the transits with an ephemeris for a while (or in the past) could be of help to find out if a peak shows when planets pass or aspect the point where the Ascendant or any other point is expected to be.
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CentralScrutinizer



Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 57

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Labalance,

Since you have the birth certificate, that time is probably quite close. In other words, not a wide range of time (to search) in order to find the correct time.

Rather than anything that involves temperament or some delineation reasoning, I heartily recommend that you use a dynamic system that moves relatively quickly. If the system you use has very tight orbs and never-changing symbolism, you have the highest likelihood. With that in mind, Topocentric Primary Directions WILL be your best bet.

I also recommend Isaac Starkman's Polaris rectification software. You have to LEARN to use it, but it certainly takes a lot of the headaches and guesswork out of the process. The old ways with brackets on a graphic ephemeris, etc. are relatively out-dated and there is always the issue of relocation. (ie. you might get hits to false angles, which often ARE the angles, but are relocated)

On another forum, Isaac posted Susan Boyle's rectified birthtime well before her birth certificate became available. If I remember correctly, Isaac's time was 9:49:28, while the birth certificate showed 9:50.

No matter which dynamic method you use, it is certainly best to have all the dated events that you even can. (make sure they are CORRECT...incorrect info is much more damaging to the process than omitted info! If you're not pretty sure of the date of some event, don't include it in the list)

With a pretty narrow range of birthtimes, you won't need so many events, but certainly one event will not really provide a confirmed rectification.

Hope this helps!

James
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1305
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martine wrote:

I tried the animodar (Ptolemy) but it did not work in my case. I did make a rectification of about 5 minutes using the Trutin of Hermes. But the rectified time does not fit well with the primary directions.


Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos - explaining Animodar - says

And in order to attain this essential point, it is necessary first to set down the ordinary degree which, by the Doctrine of Ascensions, is found near the ascendant at the presumed hour.

so in CieloeTerra, they use a method based on right or oblique ascensions which is called "isaritmia".

An example (in Italian) is given here:
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.Paul/Paul.html

Placido himself used a method based on "in mundo" aspects which is mentioned in other astrological books.

But a direction would be important, I agree with you.

margherita
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Wolfgang



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 117
Location: Wr. Neudorf, Austria

Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am studding astrology since 1969. I got my fist lectures by a friend from the Netherlands. So I got the first impression of the astrology which based on the literature from Allan Leo and so on. But not long time after that I bought a book from Alfred Witte "Regelwerk", but I could not really understand it, in that time. Also I got the information from a famous german Astrologer, which I know personally, that this is "nonsense" because of the hypotheticals Planets and sensitive points , "with this you can declare everything" so his words! So I started in the special study of primaries. This Astrologer was also a alumnus from the famous Carl Kühr. So he was a great help in understanding the PD. But always by my studies the center of interest was to get the correct birth time.
The man can only be born to one time and also die to one time. This must be seen in every (real working) system of astrology. But the reality shows often the opposite. I think this have to to do with a wrong handle of (any) system and also with the mastery of the rules, or the standard of the astrologer.
So I began to test every kind of correction-system to which I belief that it can work.
The result:
Primary yes: but the problem is the radius of time, which is by 2 and a half our. Bigger time difference on this system can not work!
Progression: yes can work, but it needs more a special "feeling" because you can not declare logical a result, by using an analog system! Lord of the house, Dispositor ....
Solar: this is not useable, when you think logical so it needs no explanation!

Trutina hermetis: yes (somtimes), but you need some fix-points , without never. For exampel one: you must know the place where the conception took place.

After some years I came back to Alfred Witte. He describes a correction-system by finding the right moon-position (= hour, minutes) - and than find the right MC, AS (minutes, seconds). He used all known planets until Uranus. Pluto was not discovered at this time!
The reason why I "returned" to Witte, was a small book, with the tittle (original in german)" the "Astrological experiences". In this an austrian Astrologer describes his (Witte) technic to find out, of any person, the right birth time.
In this time (1950) it was usual to meet each other (astrologers) in private circles. There the people tested him, or him and his technic.
So they want to know:
Which of the twin is in graphic profession?
Which birth-time has this Lady and which profession?
What happened to this man in this special time on the street?

He was also asked about the Lifespan of persons. So he said he gives no answer about this. The questioners declared, this person is not alive now, if he could tell now how old this person, in other words the lifespan .........

He did this all and more, only by knowing the birthday and the given events-dates! Also he made this "forecasts" without using any computer, only by hand, and in short time. In his little book he gives all information for recounting the exactly "forecasts".
But to do this, you need really the full understanding of Witte.
Thats was the reason why I began to study this technic, by all my suspicion against this methods because of using this new planets and sensitive points.

But I have learned from one good old astrologer: use every system which is workings and forget that which is not working!

Short time later I met Alxander Marr in Vienna and I have had some correspondence to him in this time. So I tried to learn the "system!" from Marr.
I was, and I am still, open for other perspectives in astrology. I think you can not see all in one System. Or better every system has it strength.
For example: I use Horary, I like this technic very much, close to Lilly, Regiomontan-houses, but I have no problem to use antic astrology with Pophyryhouse and so on. But than I use only this "System".

I try not to mix them; but I can change from one to an other one , and I can see maybe some parallels!

Back to Marr. There I discovered, that this system brings the same results as Witte, the only difference is, that it needs more than one event. But I can use it to verify the results anyway.

I also see a coherence to the "Live span Revolution" from Ross Harvey. In an example from Ken Gilman (google) you can see how it is working.

So I can say: test every probabilistic and logical system, To discuss about systems without trying (testing) it, is fruitless time!
Proof it, and when it is working use it! If not: take it away!!!!

"Grew (colourless) is every theory!"

Wolfgang
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Wolfgang



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 117
Location: Wr. Neudorf, Austria

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If someone is interested in the article from Ken Gillman:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070807173243/www.considerations-mag.com/articles/pdf/adolfHitler.pdf

Wolfgang
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1360

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read and tested this article (and the software) a long time ago. In my opinion this technique doesn´t have any value besides hindsight.

Even in the own article, the author uses directions that he himself sees no logic in symbolism, "because they fit".
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Wolfgang



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 117
Location: Wr. Neudorf, Austria

Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yuzuru wrote:
I have read and tested this article (and the software) ".


I think you mean the article which I have posted.
Which software did you test?

I know only one, and this is from Win van Dam, He had a LVSP-module in one of his older programs.
The other one was special programed for me.
I beg to differ. In my opinion it works.

I think, when you have a "correct" Horoscope, it works well.
My experiences are showing me, that only a "correct" Horoscope can be used for exact (special the timing) forecast! And I did it!

Which system is useable for a project like this, that is the reason. I studied a lot of "systems" and tried to mastery them. It is as like as you speak different languages. Important is not to make a mixer of all this "systems", as like as in languages. But you will observe in languages often, that some words means the same, or it have just a different meaning. - So I can see now, how the same events are be shown (indicated) in different systems.
This is very interesting!

Wolfgang
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