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Will the USA fall during the Transiting Pluto opp thier Sun?

 
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: Will the USA fall during the Transiting Pluto opp thier Sun? Reply with quote

I have been thinking upon this quite a bit lately, observing the former USSR Horoscope when Transiting Pluto cjt. thier Sun in about 1988 and they fell and later became the Russian Federation. And indeed they regenerated or died, tranformed, went thru transition, the masses rose up and upheaval caused a great metamorphesis.

There is great argument amongst astrologers of the true USA horoscope, and since according to the History Channel, the British destroyed much Masonic data during the U.S. rebellion of 1776 or the USA instigators of that nation shredded them for protection.

Evangeline Adams used the Gemini Asc. horoscope and predicted both the day the USA would enter WWII and the day the stock market would fall before she died. Using that data of her predictions I personally hypothesize that may be the true chart of the USA. At any rate thier Sun in Cancer is at around 12 degrees regardless of what chart we use. In February 2014 Pluto will approach the same degree of Capricorn at 12 degrees before Pluto Rectrogrades. Lilly taught that the opposition to my knowlege was the worst aspect; and it does Not look good for the U.S. at this time. Transiting Uranus will be a 9 Aries squaring the USA Sun/ government and the 4th house using the horoscope mentioned.

Question: Will the USA fall and be no more during the Transiting Pluto opposition the U.S. Natal Sun?

10:54 a.m. 2 / 18 / 2014 Reno, Nevada, USA

The Asc. is 2gem31, with Mercury 12aqu26 cjt the M.C., in the 10H; very much a question about one's country as Lilly says the Tenth rules goverments.

The Moon at 21aries41, in the 12th and cjt. the 12H Regio cusp; according to 'Lilly's Five Degree Rule' appears to be VOC. Yet Lilly said something to the affect of 'if the Moon is within orb it can perfect to a planet in the next sign, changing signs'. This concept is very contraversial among contemporary astrologers, and *If* Lilly is correct the Moon is 8 degrees and 21 minutes applying to a sextile to the Sun at 0pis01.

Lilly is saying if I understand him correctly that the Tenth is the matter yet I think the 4th of the Tenth, the Asc. has the answer and Mercury is unaspected; no aspects no action.

I hope some of you could post the Regio chart on this hopefully from astro.com where everyone could see it quickly.

But it's looking to me as if 'nothing will happen' in regard to the fall of the USA from this horary.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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Tanit



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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just yesterday I was wondering if nations have Hylegs/Alcoccodens in their charts, like we do in natal... Laughing Though, there is dissension on the natal chart of the US, so it would be difficult to say.

Thank you for bringing up the aspect at the zero degree rule because I was just going through this yesterday... The Moon-Sun sextile, with Moon increasing in dignity too. Though the Moon is out of orb of the Sun before the Sun changes signs, I believe. Might just be evasion. Right now it is ad vac though, which shows a gap in time in which nothing will happen. There isn't even a previous aspect within orb (its last aspect is with Mercury). The Moon is very poor here, peregrine VOC, slow, above the horizon with the Sun (though increasing in light) and in the unfortunate 12th. Things may continue as is, but I wouldn't think it's a good sign to have a Moon placed so poorly and in a sign of Mars (war in Iraq, etc.?). It's also the 7th ruler's (Sun) exaltation sign, and Mars is close to the 7th cusp, though separating.

There is an early degree ASC, and I don't really trust questions with premature rising degrees. But if you give the 10th ruler as Saturn, it is going retro, decreasing in dignity towards a peregrine sign, where it will be quite lost. Retro planets often go backwards towards damage, if I am loosely quoting Bonatti correctly. I am not sure what the 5th house represents in political questions, and it seems an odd fit for Saturn. I am thinking it is more likely representative of the turned 8th. Saturn is also afflicted by Mars still in its 6th house, though separating (mutual bad reception and Mars dominates in a sinister sextile). I saw a personal horary yesterday where this represented a man being physically assaulted. I am guessing this would represent some previous attacks on the US somehow that are still detrimental. This chart is actually the same chart I saw for the person who was assalted (he was an 11th house person for the querent). In the case of the person who was assalted, Neptune/Venus in his house represented escapism with alcohol. He was suicidal and got drunk and lost for a week... was attacked by a group of men. He's in a mental hospital now (12th Moon). If this is similar to the US's current state/future, that can't be good. In this chart you only have Neptune in the 1st, but I would wonder what that means for the US - if they are in a cloud of delusion, etc.

It seems odd to me that the US's 2nd ruler would be Jupiter dignified. Doesn't really fit the current state of the economy. Though there is the combustion! Sun is also a foe-factor for the US probably, since it's a 7th ruler. Sun is close to the 2nd but not quite there, and influencing Jupiter - 2nd house Sun is not great, as it shows losses in 2nd house matters. Jupiter in the 2nd would normally be great if it wasn't combust.

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Clinton Soule



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Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The regal Forum will have to forgive me as my 'Quote' function is Not working today!

Tanit Said:

"Just yesterday I was wondering if nations have Hylegs/Alcoccodens in their charts, like we do in natal..."

Yes, just as event charts do!

"Thank you for bringing up the aspect at the zero degree rule because I was just going through this yesterday... The Moon-Sun sextile, with Moon increasing in dignity too."

Well I didn't say zero degree rule but emphasized Lilly's five degree rule to house cusps. But the Sun at zero is Not in a critical degree as Moderns say but definitely hampered here.

If I understand Lilly and other Traditionalists prior this is the orb and moiety of the Sun and Moon:

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:FRaKcIsOxx8J:www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html+%27skyscript+lilly%27s+orbs+and+moeitys%27&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

TRADITIONAL PLANETARY ORBS

Planet Orb radius Moiety Limit
Sun 15 7
Moon 12 6
Mercury 7 3
Venus 7 3
Mars 8 4
Jupiter 9 4
Saturn 9 4

So if I understand Lilly correctly, 13.5 degrees is the connection between the moietys of Moon to Sun; and as stated in this horary it is under 9 degrees from each other.

"Though the Moon is out of orb of the Sun before the Sun changes signs, I believe. Might just be evasion."

Lilly stated that 'if they perfected even while the two planets were in different signs but in orb or rather moiety it would happen'.

"Right now it is ad vac though, which shows a gap in time in which nothing will happen."

Tanit, as I stated in my initial post, this concept of Lilly is a very arguable point as many Contemporary Traditionalists still have trouble with Lilly on this method of within orb or moiety while changing signs; and Yes I realize you met VOC.

"There is an early degree ASC, and I don't really trust questions with premature rising degrees."

Moderns that have been lead down the false path of believing Early and Late Ascendants aren't readable horarys as taught by Barbarra Watters will reject this and Bonatus taught about prematurity or testing the astrologer as we have read, but Lilly said 'all charts are readable' and list many in CA II with Early risings and none with Late Ascendants. And yes according to Bonatus I haven't put in enough legwork in studying hundreds of natals of nations that have been effected by this Pluto aspect and maybe not enough has transpired upon this matter as it is an early asc..

"But if you give the 10th ruler as Saturn, it is going retro, decreasing in dignity towards a peregrine sign, where it will be quite lost. Retro planets often go backwards towards damage, if I am loosely quoting Bonatti correctly."

Yes, according to Lilly, that is the Nation's ruler and if you look at the Morality and Finances of the USA, by sound business practices and using Biblical Morality as a standard it is downhill! :(

"Saturn is also afflicted by Mars still in its 6th house, though separating (mutual bad reception and Mars dominates in a sinister sextile)."

If this were true and Lilly's orb or moiety factor for the Moon Not being VOC holds true it would mean the end of the U.S. to my knowledge. But Lilly allowed only a 6 minure orb in seaparating aspects. However *If* you observe Deb's CA II online, in the back of CA II, the computerized charts are off some in even planetary degrees and minutes from Lilly's hand calculations.

"I saw a personal horary yesterday where this represented a man being physically assaulted. I am guessing this would represent some previous attacks on the US somehow that are still detrimental. This chart is actually the same chart I saw for the person who was assalted (he was an 11th house person for the querent). In the case of the person who was assalted, Neptune/Venus in his house represented escapism with alcohol. He was suicidal and got drunk and lost for a week... was attacked by a group of men. He's in a mental hospital now (12th Moon). If this is similar to the US's current state/future, that can't be good. In this chart you only have Neptune in the 1st, but I would wonder what that means for the US - if they are in a cloud of delusion, etc."

Using the USA Horoscope Evangeline Adams predicted from, with the Moon in Aquarius in the 10th, I think you hit it right, the U.S. is in great trouble and familys are virtually crazy as well as eccentric and with independent types that are status minded. And I'd say we as a nation are definitely not in touch, and we have been 'assaulted by our own drunkeness in our self-angrandizement/Saturn of Not paying attention.

"It seems odd to me that the US's 2nd ruler would be Jupiter dignified. Doesn't really fit the current state of the economy. Though there is the combustion!"

Oh, Tanit it does in that we have overspent and and have been overly optimistic for too long. And notice the horary has the same signs on the cusp as the Gemini rising USA natal chart which also has Jupiter as lord of the natal 2nd. The Combust is definitely an 'over fried financial realm' Jupiter has been too long in the oven with the Sun(possible home and Real estate crisis/ horary's 4th) roasting it to a crisp.

Tanit great points, and I bow to your observances and thank you for posting the Chart.

I ask the Forum to remember Pluto was in Capricorn when France had thier revolution as portrayed in the classic tale, Tale of Two Cities with Ronald Coleman. And a few British Colonies rebelled in 1776 under the rays of Pluto in Capricorn as well.

Great discussion for those gallant enough to state thier oppinions,

Clinton Garrett Soule
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it interesting that you chose Feb 18th of all days to ask the question. A friend of mine who is a revolutionary by nature has that birth date, but moreover, that was the date just a few days ago that Joe Stack flew his plane into the IRS tax building in Austin Texas. Here is the chart for the event:



He left a suicide note:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/18/stack.letter.pdf
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Clinton Soule



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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft,

I'm sure there is plenty of astro correlations in this event chart to the day of this horary.

But does that close VOC Moon throw curves at you? I mean the Sun was 0 degrees 01, one little minute into the next sign as the Moon applied to it.

I wonder what Lilly would say on this one?

Clinton Garrett Soule
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:
zoidsoft,

I'm sure there is plenty of astro correlations in this event chart to the day of this horary.

But does that close VOC Moon throw curves at you? I mean the Sun was 0 degrees 01, one little minute into the next sign as the Moon applied to it.

I wonder what Lilly would say on this one?

Clinton Garrett Soule


When the Sun or Moon are at the sign boundary, they are actually in 2 signs at the same time (visibly so) because the lights are 1/2 degree in diameter. I think this may be the reasoning for not assigning the bounds/terms to the Sun or Moon because the lights have a discernible size and might not be contained (Bonatti says that the halves of the zodiac - solar/lunar sides have the power of boundaries for the lights).

This is one of those cases where the aspect between the Sun and Moon doesn't perfect; therefore it is (supposedly) not testimony. Whatever significations the Sun might have imposed upon the Moon by being in superior position was lost by the Sun moving into Pisces. Whatever the Moon might have brought into the physical was lost as well
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With questions that are so general as this one, it is like asking the question "will I die someday"? All countries fall sooner or later; it is a matter of when as nothing ever stays the same in the sublunary sphere.

Currently the USA is quickly becoming a fascist state and eventually there will be revolt.
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Clinton Soule



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Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All countries fall sooner or later; it is a matter of when as nothing ever stays the same in the sublunary sphere.

Currently the USA is quickly becoming a fascist state and eventually there will be revolt.


Yes, and if we study the charts of nations in the past and present and can accurately predict both crisis and blessed times not only do we sharpen our own senses we can aid humanity in things to come.

It's very obvious what ever the true USA chart is that when the USA Sun is oppositioned by Pluto and squared by Uranus that the rising dictatorship and the move by the populace toward rebellion while Uranus will be in Aries is going to bring about a pressing crisis.

Many Do Not see that during the last time Pluto was in Capricorn both the American Colonies and France went thru over-taxation and oppression until the 'haves' were radically removed. I'm sure if we review world history at that time we can see simular tendacies in many if not all the nations that existed.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:


It's very obvious what ever the true USA chart is that when the USA Sun is oppositioned by Pluto and squared by Uranus that the rising dictatorship and the move by the populace toward rebellion while Uranus will be in Aries is going to bring about a pressing crisis.



I hope so. People in this country are so docile, whether it is the flouride in the water, or the lack of care brought on by a life of convenience, many live unaware of what they are being taken for, or they know and fear to act first. The latter crowd is becoming more prevalent where ignorance is not their excuse.

Obama recently signed the patriot act allowing it to run for another year... The actions at the top of USA govt show that they work in unison on most things but only differ on a few for the sake of preserving their act before the public on being a real 2 party system. I think that the reality is that we've had a puppet president for decades, that the true leaders are the ones with the wealth (Rothchild's, Mellon's, Astors, etc...) and our presidents are their secretaries taking orders from them.

The T-square this August should be interesting and affects Obama's Venus (lord of 4th and 9th houses if his chart is correct). Zodiacal Releasing from spirit goes to his 8th house where Mars is located. Since I was born just a few hours later, I can say that Mars/Virgo periods are not easy. If his birth time is correct with his time lord sequencing like mine, I look for something spectacular to happen around April 7th, 2011 in regards to a death (not necessarily his), because Mercury and Saturn have 1st-8th house relationship and preserve their positioning in regards to face such that the lords of the places they rule (Aquarius and Virgo) are also 1st-8th.

I suspect that this August that there will be more financial fallout (Mars 8th house). Bush also had Mars in Virgo in the place of acquisition, which I interpreted to mean that during his reign, wealth was made by burning the books (Enron, Worldcom, etc). Clinton by contrast had Fortune at the beginning of Cancer with the place of acquisition being the Moon in the bullish sign and the USA had unprecedented wealth all around (mainly for the middle class). The wealthy did not like that because that hinders their control and they seek power to keep control of the population which is their greatest concern (overpopulation).
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granny_skot



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Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at a few other charts to get an idea of where Pluto might be when a Countries Leadership changed.

For USSR, I used the 25 October 1917 as a birth date, this gives a 2 Scorpio Sun and on 26 Dec 1991, Pluto was at 21 Sco so past the conj, but still in the same sign. it was conj in 1984.

for England
13 Oct 1399 Libra sun (Lancasters Oust the Plantagenets)
22 Aug 1485 Pluto in Libra (Tudors oust the Lancasters)

French Revolution
22 Sep 1792 end of last Reign sun 0 Libra
18 May 1804 Napolean meets his waterloo Pluto in Pisces, so 150 ish of Sun

American Civil War, Which of Course started with an election
Sun was Trine by sign to natal Sun and Pluto was Sextile Natal Sun
Saturn however was at 5 Virgo. Making it Trine Pluto and Sextile Natal Sun, also not quite opposed to trans Sun


well just a few charts, I was trying to find ones with relatively solid dates.
America has a revolution every 4 years, some are just more exciting than others. Smile 12 -13 Cancer is Always going ot work for America's Natal sun. You just dont get any kind of reliable Asc.

Granny
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Clinton Soule



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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:

Quote:
I think that the reality is that we've had a puppet president for decades, that the true leaders are the ones with the wealth (Rothchild's, Mellon's, Astors, etc...) and our presidents are their secretaries taking orders from them.


Yes, both partys are bought by the big money, the partys are just two different horns on the same bull. What was it Eisenhower said as he left office? ..........'Beware of the Military Industrial Complex!'

As this horary shows by the VOC Moon, the USA will not fall, nothing will happen like that.

Most likely with the Pluto opposition to thier Sun, the Masses will feel the tyranical rule as we go more toward a dictatorial police state like the Roman Empire experienced corruption in it's last days, or tyrany simular to that as the Greek Alexander the Great pressed upon his inferiors while in the Eastern Conquest.

It would be very interesting to observe the past Germany horoscope where they went from many democratic elements in thier culture and as Chancellor Hitler moved them into a dictatorship. And we well know that Hitler abused occult sciences, namely astrology, to build Germany into the threat it was.

Perhaps the progressed horoscope of the USA tells of it becoming more of an oppression than it broke away from. Personally as a historian, I think the citizens in the prior colonies were better off under the Mother country than the present govt. is to it's citizens. And if we look at England's horoscope I'm sure it shows the strife in the colonys while Pluto was last in Capricorn.

Most adults realize there really is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, and sonner or latter everyone in the USA is going to have to grow up and realize there really isn't a U.S. Constitution either! :, :shock:

Clinton Garrett Soule
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we shouldn't focus too much on the USA. What is really happening is that the global financial crisis is concentrating the wealth of the world into what I call the "crown", which are the ruling families of the world. The effect of this is to cause their policies to become ours. Insofar as all countries have bought the economic system of the world, it will come under the rule of the crown. Even China has gotten on board with this economic system. The "war on terror" is their agenda to bring trouble maker countries in line with this economic system. One of the greatest coups that they pulled off is that we never knew who we were fighting - the enemy was counted as one of our friends and our friends were called enemies. Our prejudices were used against us.

If we are moving into the age of Aquarius, with the thema mundi having Cancer rising, this places emphasis on the 8th house. Since the rich don't have an issue with money, what do they worry about? The answer is overpopulation. Within the next several generations, we're probably headed for mass extermination through various methods so that we don't cause too much of a drain on what they consider to be "their resources".
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Clinton Soule



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Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

granny_skot said:

Quote:
For USSR, I used the 25 October 1917 as a birth date, this gives a 2 Scorpio Sun and on 26 Dec 1991, Pluto was at 21 Sco so past the conj, but still in the same sign. it was conj in 1984.


Back about 1982 I observered this same chart you presented and thought the same thing as the USSR was going thru upheaval.

But I think this was the chart I found via the Webb Granny that I base this original idea upon:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/countries/russia.php

I know as in the example of so many hypothesis charts for the USA it gets confusing, and we have to interrogate the charts as to both traits and see how the Transits and Progressions match up.

My horary evidently is moot, as I keep thinking of Russia's transformation as the USSR's Sun was under the cjt., yet I reflect upon England's horoscope established in 1066 A.D. when William the ______ defeated Harold at Hastings and established that Kingdom. England has had the Opposition and Connjunction around four times to thier Sun and they are still in power.

Ah, yes, the Mayan Calender is winding down in December 21st, 2012 A.D. when evidently the birth of the Aquarian Age will initialize many revolutions as the old Song in the 60's sang of.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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granny_skot



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Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well it doesnt' hurt to keep extra water, and supplies about, but one shouldn't live in fear of Armageddon, as it merely makes you ill.

As to US chart, if you use the 4 july chart, with NO houses, as in, dont assume a time for it, as that seems useless, but the chart itself seems to work best when I've used it.

I'll check out the article you mention asap, thanks for the pointer, Granny
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