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Will we be able to maintain our current structure?
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 10:54 pm    Post subject: Will we be able to maintain our current structure? Reply with quote



My family owns a small newspaper, that happens to be very regarded, and after this financial crisis, everybody is in for trouble, it seems. I live in a region of 3 small towns that depends heavily on taxes from a big multinacional that exports minerals, and the profit and market just vanished, so no heavy exploration for the time being.

Besides that, there is a huge political instability, and the main income of my bussiness is from the local goverment, since the newspaper is given to the population for free, and relies on publicity from the goverment and local bussiness to sustain itself.

We already dismissed one employee and sold a car, burned up our savings and are on the way to get a loan. After 20 years on the road, the newspaper finally has a structure that is ideal, with a team worth keeping. So I do not want to dismiss anyone else, and if possible, not reducing costs at all anymore, but rather, gain enough to keep up with it in order to survive for the time being. The question is, then, will we be able to keep our current structure for the passing year? That will be possible only if contracts start to be made soon.

About the chart, there are three approaches to follow, and that's why I seek advice here:

First we look at the AC, since AC is interested in the outcome, for the fate of the newspaper affects the fate of myself. First thing that I noticed is how the Sun is conjunct the DC, hurting the AC. Sun rules power, men in power, political power and MC. Sun hates Mars, ruler of AC, feeling which is not reciprocated. That's unsettling. Sun is peregrine in Taurus, bringing greater worry. Mars represent subordinates as well, and reveals they are good. Still, both ruler of AC and 6th are cadent. Eventually Mars will reach the ruler of my 2nd, which is good.

Now, the press industry is ruled by 9th. 9th ruler is Moon, and Moon's resource is the 2nd from 9th, ruler of 10th, the Sun. They are about to trine each other from the 11th, a good new. After that will conjoin Saturn, which is not good, since Saturn rules 7th and 8th from radical 9th.

Finally, the last approach is if I considered Sun, ruler of 10th, as significator for the newspaper. Newspaper is my work, and my bussiness, and that is the source of my doubt, since I do not know if 9th can be assigned to a enterprise like this. So that's why I come and ask what say you.

Regardless, the Moon's next aspect seems promissing, still seems we will not get out without scratchs, and I may have to deal with another degree of loss.


Last edited by PFN on Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PFN,

Sun does not "hate Mars". Using Lilly's approach to reception, the Sun receives Mars into the sign of his exaltation. This reception is not relevant, however, because there's no aspect between Sun (L10 - the business) and Mars (L1-you).

The Moon tells the story. It applies to the trine of the Sun, L10. That says to me that you will be able to maintain (trine) the structure of your business.

Tara
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1436

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tara wrote:
Sun does not "hate Mars". Using Lilly's approach to reception, the Sun receives Mars into the sign of his exaltation.
It's the - I think rather detached even though spread - opionion of J. Frawley, as a result of which the Sun "hates" Mars being in his detriment Taurus.

Tara wrote:
The Moon tells the story. It applies to the trine of the Sun, L10. That says to me that you will be able to maintain (trine) the structure of your business.
But in this deduction there is no connection with the querent, the Moon NOT being her cosignficator!

Johannes
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was taught by Deb that the Moon can signify the querent, the quesited or both! Certainly it indicates the evolution of events.

Yes I know it's a "Frawleyism" to turn the receptions backwards.

Cheers,
Tara
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1436

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tara wrote:
I was taught by Deb that the Moon can signify the querent, the quesited or both! Certainly it indicates the evolution of events.

Sorry Tara, but I was so involved in the text of PFN, that I didn't see you making a very short and elegant judgement! It was complete or could be so, without further details, only with 'querent' and 'sorces or success of publishing'.

Do you know anything of the origin of Deb's teaching the Moon beeing significator of querent AND quesited simultaneously - or is she the source? Never heard or this before, but very interesting!

Cheers,
Johannes
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johannes

I like to speak for myself if possible Smile As I am so short of time over this bank holiday let me give you a quick quote from Bonatti that should not be contentious:

“And if you saw the Sun impeded, there will be an impediment upon the Man, and if Venus were impeded, it will impede the woman. Indeed if the Moon were impeded, it will impede both”.

This is from Bonatti’s Liber Astronomiae; the treatise ‘On Questions’ 7.3 (Dykes p.97).

My own teaching (based on various comments in several traditional texts) is that the Moon usually signifies the querent, but a pivotal part of its role is to aid our understanding of the focus of the question – so sometimes it is a better representative of the quesited; sometimes it is relevant to querent and quesited, and sometimes it presents the expectation of the situation as a whole. There are ways to establish where the Moon’s signification falls most directly, but this teaching needs a full explanation so presently it is something that is only fully explained to my advanced students. It forms part of some work that I have yet to publish.

Regards
Deb
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for answers up till now.

About the "reception" between Sun and Mars in this case, it does not apply for lack of aspect as pointed, so just like in the case of generosity, it's of little importance (although I do like Frawley approach). The most important in my opinion, and my source of doubt, is if I should assign 9th to rule the newspaper or not, since 9th rules press industry, but newspaper is a bussiness/work like any other, which falls under 10th. The turned chart can be read very differently depending on this choice. Still, the trine aspect grants a degree of tranquility indeed, as much as the relation between Mars and Jupiter, sitting on radical 4th.

About the Moon signification, I find it may signify the matter as whole, in horary, but that does not always apply in my opinion, mostly in cases where the Moon rules quesited or person/matter of significant importance in the reading.


Last edited by PFN on Mon May 04, 2009 5:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Martine



Joined: 03 May 2009
Posts: 70
Location: France

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Will we be able to maintain our current structure ? Reply with quote

Hi PFN

I would take the Ascendant to mean the newspaper. It is the 'ship you are in'. So Mars, lord of 1st, and the Moon represent the newspaper. I will give the 4th house and its lord, Saturn, to represent the present structure.

The chart describes the situation with Mars cadent, and the Sun, lord of 10th, in 7th, as a partner.

The Moon is going towards a conjunction with Saturn, which would show that the structure is maintained. Unfortunately, there is prohibition, because the Moon trine to the Sun comes first. See ephemeris.

My opinion is then that the structure cannot be maintained because the authorities will not be able to support it, despite their good will.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1436

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
There are ways to establish where the Moon’s signification falls most directly, but this teaching needs a full explanation so presently it is something that is only fully explained to my advanced students. It forms part of some work that I have yet to publish.

Hi Deb,

So I'll waite for detailed explanaitons hoping your work is published very soon. I wish you all the best for your writing it!

Regards
Johannes
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Carol



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
Posts: 210

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PFN,

Right away, SN in the 10th (business/newspaper) shows there is currently a drain there.

And while Moon (querent's secondary significator) trining Sun (business/newspaper) looks somewhat promising, that's soon followed by Moon conjuncting weak, retrograde Saturn in the 11th (hopes and wishes in the radical chart, and income from the paper in the turned chart), and then lastly, Moon Opposing disruptive, calamitous Uranus in the 5th (creative expression) is a little ominous.

However, looking at the bigger picture, your main significator/Mars in Aries in its house of joy/6th looks pretty strong, and the fact that strong Mercury (income from the paper) eventually sextiles it as well as Jupiter (your own personal resources), I'd say there's a good chance your paper will eventually spring back financially, if you can just ride it out.
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Deb
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Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PFN

Your question seems to be mainly about signification, so here is the approach I would take:

Keep the ascendant to signify you as the querent. You can extend its signification to include your family as a whole if you feel that you are summarising your family’s concern about a family business. It is important to keep this signification for yourself because you need to be able to see your own strengths and weaknesses (or the strength of your family as the owners and managers of this endeavour). You can see, for example, that your significator is in dignity, indicating strength and capability, but it is in a cadent house, so the essential potential cannot be expressed easily because of the external factors that are set against you. Also think about the way the signification is describing the situation. Mars likes action and spontaneity, so it particularly suffers in a cadent house, where it cannot take control and move events to its own sense of timing. If the chart is telling you that you cannot change the situation, you can look at things that you might need to change about yourself, to enable you to deal with the situation more effectively.

The newspaper is signified by the 10th house. This describes the state of your business (to which your reputation is connected) and its market position; whether the business by itself is viable, and how it is positioned against its competitors.

The 9th house is the publishing industry as a whole (as relevant to your question); so this might say something about the newspaper publishing trade in general.

The Moon is partly describing your situation, but in this sort of chart it is also going to have a relevant role describing public influences (eg - the effects of the recession). The Moon’s applying conjunction with Saturn cannot be ignored, and seems to show that the situation is likely to get worse before it gets better. Overall, I do think that this chart is advising you that more cuts will be necessary. At least there is a warning here that you cannot take anything for granted, and will have to watch every expense if you are to survive this recession. (I am sure you know this already, with the Moon in the 11th house conjunct Saturn, I think the question has been asked from subdued hopes and caution rather than high hopes).

Also think about the other houses as necessary – the 2nd house to signify your own finances – how much your family can afford to support the venture and whether this will improve or damage the family finances in the long term / and the 11th house to indicate the revenue that the paper can generate in the short term; and whether the 2nd house has the strength to carry the 11th house.

It does not look like an easy chart, but there are some positive factors. I’m sorry to don’t have more time to explore the chart but I think you are very capable to do this yourself and hopefully you will be able to find some helpful answers to guide you through this difficult time.

My best wishes
Deb
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1215
Location: Delhi

Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Hi PFN

Your question seems to be mainly about signification, so here is the approach I would take:

Keep the ascendant to signify you as the querent. You can extend its signification to include your family as a whole if you feel that you are summarising your family’s concern about a family business. It is important to keep this signification for yourself because you need to be able to see your own strengths and weaknesses (or the strength of your family as the owners and managers of this endeavour). You can see, for example, that your significator is in dignity, indicating strength and capability, but it is in a cadent house, so the essential potential cannot be expressed easily because of the external factors that are set against you. .....

The newspaper is signified by the 10th house. This describes the state of your business (to which your reputation is connected) and its market position; whether the business by itself is viable, and how it is positioned against its competitors.

The 9th house is the publishing industry as a whole (as relevant to your question); so this might say something about the newspaper publishing trade in general.

The Moon is partly describing your situation, but in this sort of chart it is also going to have a relevant role describing public influences (eg - the effects of the recession). The Moon’s applying conjunction with Saturn cannot be ignored, and seems to show that the situation is likely to get worse before it gets better. ........

My best wishes
Deb



Exclamation Thumbs up Thumbs up for the approach and clarity of thought.


PD
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the kind answer Deb, and thank you all for the attention.

I've been meeting some of the authorities in town in order to see what will I be able to attain, and so far things do not seem to be all that good. Still, we are not desperate yet (I've seen rougher times).

We are trying to use some creative solutions, like agreements with older employees, cutting some benefits, and my family is trying to renounce some things (not all of them are what you would call privileges, but oh well) in order to keep the machine working. Still, some of these measures already are a change in the structure, so the answer for the question is a "no". Now, I hope we are able to go on without further traumas. Some time around in the future I drop by to finish this tale.

Still, I have positive hopes, given the presence of North Node in the 4th (end of matter) and Jupiter (ruler of 2nd and 5th) near cusp of 5th. He has a application of Mars to him without Saturn interfering directly, as the last aspect of the AC ruler before changing signs. Now, patience and hard work.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, hello all. Almost a year has passed since I posted this question, and I'm back for a final feedback and another chart. First the feedback:

As predicted, our bussiness did took some other blows during the year. By the end of the year, one of our employees had to leave the job for a better position and we had to let another one go (due to low productivity and to cut spends with a high salary). Also, our debts increased during the course of the year, but my mother inherited some money that we are keeping stored in case things get out of control (so, no loans in sight for now).

There was some political complications that led to the judicial removal of two mayors in the cities we operate, and that have put us under heavy stress, since we were forced to assume "black and white" political positions (as much as we try all the time to avoid that; sometimes not clearly favoring this or that political agent = no money).

Even with all the problems, we are going to rebuild the former structure little by little, or at least, that's our plan. So, next week, we'll be hiring new reporters to work in the newspaper, and hopefully, in the next couple months, contracts that leads to enough gain to cover for that we'll be made (we are partially optimistic about those).

So, I was looking at the charts of my family (almost all of my close relatives work in the newspaper) to see how our finances would be untill the next municipal elections (which are major turning points for better or for worse). Since I was getting to much mixed signals (and because of the fact that on mine, my sister's and my mother's secondary progressed natal charts the Moon opposes Saturn on May, and since Saturn rules 10th for all of us three, a real dread) I decided it would be better to simply cast a horary with the question "how will our finances hold up untill next election?" Here is the chart for that question:



Day of Sun, hour of Sun, Sun on the same triplicity of AC ruler, chart radical. I feel that, like in the reading of my family SR and such, I got mixed testimonies crying. Jupiter, ruler of the AC, is strong, sitting right on the AC, so that is very good. Mars, ruler of the 2nd, is about to end its retrogradation. It's interesting cause our financial crisis started on July 2008, and Mars went retrograde on 19º Leo. From July 2008 to now, that's more or less 19 months. So we may expect things to improve on short notice as Mars goes direct. That's where the good part ends.

Now for the bad stuff: Jupiter is combust (some would say Cazimi) and the Sun as dispositor of Mars shows my concern, besides being the next aspect to take place within orb. If the Sun damages (ruler of 6th, exaltation ruler of 2nd, but only in aspect to 10th/Sagittarius, where he holds day triplicity... so I think prone to represent a 10th house matter here) I can hope for some heavy blow in the near future (so let's hope that Cazimi is for real and that, actually, we are in the "heart of the king"). But the Sun is not alone, as the Moon comes to oppose Jupiter from the 7th house. Disposited by Mercury, which is inside 12th, I believe she is holding our competitors flag (the early retirement of the mayors in our region affected our main competitor much more deeply, and they are desperate to gain contracts that we also need a lot). I think this opposition may represent the upcoming battle for contracts.

I believe, since Mercury is close to enter his detriment and fall, that does not bode well for our enemies, and we do have more essential dignity... Also, Jupiter rules 10th, which is a bless. Still, the coming aspects are a combustion and a opposition, a very bad sign. And the lack of reception between Mars and Saturn is distressing, since Saturn rules 11th. All in all, I believe we still have a rough time ahead before things improve for real (if they really do) but carry on we must.

Any insights will be much appreciated.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paulo
first, thanks for the feedback
second, have you noticed that there are many points in common between the two horaries?
best regards
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My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
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