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The Current Saturn/Uranus Opposition...
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:55 pm    Post subject: The Current Saturn/Uranus Opposition... Reply with quote

In a different thread in the Philosophy & Science forum, I listed the dates of the current Saturn/Uranus opposition and their preceding conjunction. That thread was focused on how science might be applied to astrology.

I'm going to reproduce the dates for the conjunction and opposition here and hope that folks will share their experiences:

We had the beginning of a Saturn/Uranus cycle on these dates:

12 Feb 1988 at 30 Sagittarius
26 Jun 1988 at 29 Sagittarius
18 Oct 1988 at 28 Sagittarius

We're in the middle of the culmination (opposition) of this cycle. Here are the dates:

4 Nov 2008 at 19 Pisces/Virgo
5 Feb 2009 at 21 Pisces/Virgo
15 Sep 2009 at 25 Pisces/Virgo
26 Apr 2010 at 29 Pisces/Virgo
26 Jul 2010 at 1 Libra/Aries
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Gunhilde



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was trying to think about what I was doing back in 1988...it took me awhile!

My Sun is at 26 Sagittarius in the 11th house, so I must have been doing something...the only thing that I can recall was that I was smoking pot and dropping acid with my friends (having left high school the year before), hanging out, working odd jobs, and being involved in an occasionally physically abusive relationship (on both sides: very much a give and take sort of relationship!), which would explain the heavy 11th/5th axis. I don't remember specific dates, obviously, but this sort of 'activity' continued until summer 1989, when I left the relationship for a better, nicer one, stopped doing drugs, and entered an entirely different sort of space - not an easier one, but a little less fraught than the drugs/fighting one.

GH Smile
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes this interesting to me is that it highlights the problems I have with outer planet transits. There is enough here to be tantalizing, but not enough to sink your teeth into - and let it be said right here, that I am only looking at my own chart for this exercise.

1988 was the beginning of the end of my first marriage. We separated by July and were divorced in the fall of 1989. I have Leo rising so Aquarius is on the 7th cusp and I would use Saturn as its Lord. However even John Frawley says there is an association with Uranus and divorce.

The problem I have is the location. Using Placidus I have 28 Sagittarius on the 5th cusp. This might be interpreted as separation from children, but that is the norm with men and divorce and it isn't as though I never saw them again. The older one eventually moved in with me.

Mars, the natural ruler of divorce trines the conjunction, so the planets are cooperating, but the houses less so.

That was 21 years ago. I long ago remarried and still enjoy the company of my sons. The "culmination" of the cycle squares itself in late Pisces, by sign anyway. Late Pisces - Virgo doesn't contact much in my chart (2nd house - 8th house - wide sextile to Jupiter) and my ex wife hasn't given me any money (not that I expect or am entitled to any). In the summer of 2007 I broke down and wrote to her to quell a rumor she heard about my oldest son's health (they are estranged). He had a health issue and although serious, was not as bad as what she thought. She called here while I was travelling and my wife set her at ease and I sat down and wrote a lengthy and accurate description of his condition, and kept her updated, despite the fact we hadn't contacted each other in well over 10 years. In April 2008 my son's wife gave birth to our granddaughter and I made an effort (failed) to put things behind everyone so we could enjoy the little girl. But all this began well before Nov 2008 and I'm struggling with this symbolism.

There is something here, especially with the divorce, but the culmination part doesn't seem to work at all.

One other point, I might have instinctively reversed these two. I would think the opposition is the beginning (tension etc) and the conjunction as the culmination (coming together = results). But that's me. This is an interesting observation though.

Tom
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gunhilde wrote:
...being involved in an occasionally physically abusive relationship (on both sides: very much a give and take sort of relationship!), which would explain the heavy 11th/5th axis.


Could you explicate that phrase "a give and take sort of relationship" and the abuse with Saturn/Uranus in 11??

Gunhilde wrote:
I don't remember specific dates, obviously, but this sort of 'activity' continued until summer 1989, when I left the relationship for a better, nicer one, stopped doing drugs, and entered an entirely different sort of space - not an easier one, but a little less fraught than the drugs/fighting one.


Well, the last conjunction date sure is close enough to your Sun. And I noticed that, by the Summer of '89, Uranus had a chance to pass the trine to natal Saturn (Jan '89) and return to retro-trine by the Summer...

Be interesting to know how Jan '89 bears on your Summer break toward freedom...

Also, I'd love to know how you see Now (the oppositions) as the culmination or harvest of '88-'89...

BTW, I checked out your new blog and it became the first astro-blog in the blogroll on my new astro-blog...
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
The problem I have is the location. Using Placidus I have 28 Sagittarius on the 5th cusp. This might be interpreted as separation from children, but that is the norm with men and divorce and it isn't as though I never saw them again. The older one eventually moved in with me.


Saturn can also be interpreted as Clarifying, and Defining and Uranus should also be considered as Utter Truth...

Tom wrote:
Late Pisces - Virgo doesn't contact much in my chart


We don't have to have transits contacting natal planets to have meaning happen...

Tom wrote:
There is something here, especially with the divorce, but the culmination part doesn't seem to work at all.


We are only roughly a third of the way through the oppositions...

Tom wrote:
One other point, I might have instinctively reversed these two. I would think the opposition is the beginning (tension etc) and the conjunction as the culmination (coming together = results). But that's me. This is an interesting observation though.


To me, a conjunction is a blending of two functions--a merging of their characteristics--a rebirth of the potential of their cycle. The opposition is the harvest or culmination of the birth/merger of the functions. An analogy would be the new birth of Spring and the harvest of Fall...
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Gunhilde



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'give and take' in this case was the fact that we fought rather like siblings; it wasn't a case where I was a beaten woman or he was a beaten man...we just beat on one another occasionally. Not in a serious, face-punching and bloody fist sort of way, but there was a lot of shouting, pushing and physical grappling (I have a 1st house Mars, so occasionally have...erm, aggressive tendencies). I didn't consider it abusive at the time as I certainly didn't take it lying down (and was sometimes the instigator). Thinking about it, the Sagittarius/Gemini axis would have been triggered by the transiting square to my natal Pluto at 27 Virgo (8th house). Natal Pluto makes a quincunx to my Moon at 28 Aries, so obviously an 'itchy', unsettled time period.

There's nothing in the current Pisces/Virgo transit that seems to much relate to that 1988/9 time period except for the fact that transiting Saturn will conjunct natal Pluto (and thus possibly trigger the Moon quincunx again). The Pisces/Virgo axis is, for me, 2nd/8th house; I would certainly agree that issues of value (of all sorts, but especially self-value) are a part of this current transit. These would have been an issue 'then', too, of course...but with Chiron in my 2nd, this has always been the case. Smile

I'm thinking hard about January 1989. I don't think I was out of my old relationship yet. I'm fairly sure I was extremely miserable in January '89. Thinking about it further, I don't think the new relationship started until late summer.

GH Smile
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
We don't have to have transits contacting natal planets to have meaning happen...


If this is true, we might not need a chart. I better crawl back to the comfort of my medieval hovel. Leery
Tom
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Location: Kettering, Ohio, USA

Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
We don't have to have transits contacting natal planets to have meaning happen...


If this is true, we might not need a chart. I better crawl back to the comfort of my medieval hovel. Leery
Tom


Sure hope I'm right that you're mostly joking... Confused

You must be aware that a planet merely in a house, without aspects, still carries interpretable meaning, right?
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You must be aware that a planet merely in a house, without aspects, still carries interpretable meaning, right?


I've never found transits to be worth very much when they do make contact with natal planets or angles unless there is something else in play. I could list all the Uranus, Neptune, Pluto transits in my life that coincided with absolutely nothing in my life, and I'm over 60 years old. Neptune is right now opposite my natal Mars Ho-Hum. In fact the first astrology teacher I had said, "transits are not enough." So the idea of having a Saturn Uranus oppositions in a sign and a house and doing nothing else is of little value. It's in the same signs for everyone on earth and in the same houses as almost 10% of the world's population, assuming equal distribution. How specific can it be? Otherwise the position of every outer planet in any kind of aspect would have a significant impact on everyone's life the same way. That does not compute.

Tom


Last edited by Tom on Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amzolt



Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
I could list all the Uranus, Neptune, Pluto transits in my life that coincided with absolutely nothing in my life, and I'm over 60 years old.


I, too, am over 60... But, I'm curious. It's been a long time since I believed that placements or aspects in a chart had to have physical, external manifestations. Do you think that the positions of the planets in transit have had interior, psychological manifestations?

Tom wrote:
... the idea of having a Saturn Uranus oppositions in a sign and a house and doing nothing else is of little value.


Again, what do you think about the internal development that these planets represent?

Tom wrote:
It's in the same signs for everyone on earth and in the same houses as almost 10% of the world's population, assuming equal distribution. How specific can it be?


The specificity of any positions or aspects come from the individual's free will (plus the free will of other involved parties) and past actions. An example:

I interviewed, separately, two men who had the same chart (same time and place of birth, different mothers) and when asked about a particular Saturn transit one said his father died and the other was on his first nude beach. This was when it became clear to me that astrology does not predict specific events.

When I asked them each what the events meant to them, the man who's father died said, "I was freed from my shackles". The man who was on his first nude beach said, "I dropped my shackles". They both, in completely separate interviews, used the word "shackles". This was when I knew that astrology predicted Meanings...

Different events, same meanings.
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Gunhilde



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've never found transits to be worth very much when they do make contact with natal planets or angles unless there is something else in play


I think I would have to disagree with this. Having just experienced a VERY long Pluto transit over first my Venus and then my Sun (it never seems to leave late Sagittarius for very long these days!!) I would be the first person to stick their hand in the air and say, "Pluto works!", certainly in natal charts. I take your point about other things happening at the same time, though: other transits concurrent with the Pluto transit (which was also a Pluto-Pluto square) were, first Uranus and then Neptune transiting my first house (Neptune is still there) and, at the time, Saturn transiting my 7th house. All of this mess put together in my chart led me to experience clinical depression (with a manic episode in 2002), and the breakdown of both my personality and my marriage. I consider myself very fortunate to have come through this particular series of transits alive, let alone with my marriage still intact and my marbles in place.

Pluto, in particular, I felt very acutely; I was aware that Pluto was conjuncting my Venus (life presented me with a series of romantic choices, let's just say), and by the time Pluto reached the conjunction with my Sun (and the commensurate square with natal Pluto), I had reached the end of my existential tether and got into therapy. I still believe that this very intense and transformative time in my life was down to Pluto; the other transits pushed it along, but Pluto was the godfather of the whole experience. It was, literally, a life-saver. I would never wish a Pluto conj Sun transit on anyone, but having said that, I'm glad it happened.

But having said that, I have a fairly spread-out, well-connected chart (in terms of aspectual contact; I have no unaspected planets), so perhaps the triggers of transits are felt differently in different types of chart configurations?

GH Smile


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Tom
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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Again, what do you think about the internal development that these planets represent?


I don't think they do that at all. I think, in fact I know this is a roughly mid to late 20th century idea and has little to do with what astrology was and is. I also think that if natal astrology cannot give specific verifiable information regarding events, it has little value. I can get pop psychology anywhere.

The death of a parent is a significant event. I'm not sure that risking sunburn in sensitive areas of the body is of the same importance. I don't think it is plausible that, in the case you mentioned both fathers should die at the same instant, but I do believe that there should be some kind of similarity in events if the transit has value. Saturn only has so many meanings.

Secondly the respective fathers didn't have the same chart, did they? And thirdly I think this example makes my point: transits are not enough.

I don't want to get into a traditional versus modern debate. They never go anywhere important. But I will leave a rather broad explanation of a predictive technique that some traditionalists use:

1) Look at the primary directions (or secondary progressions). Is something about to happen of significance, a direction to an angle perhaps, or an interplanetary aspect or conjunction?

2) If so, do the solar return for the year that occurs and if the direction perfects or is close to perfection near a solar return date, do a couple of them: one before and one after. Look at the return and see if the direction is repeated somehow or if there are serious goings on between the return and the nativity. There are specific things to look for too much to go into here.

3) Look at the upcoming lunar returns in the period you're examining. See anything that repeats the SR ties the SR to the nativity?

4) Then look at transits to see if they trigger all this.

I am sorry to report that it doesn't always work out as neatly as the above suggests, but you would be surprised at how much you can get this way. And this also explains why in so many charts a major transit occurs and nothing happens. This is a problem that puzzled Rob Hand for years before he became a medieval astrologer. I don't know where he stands on the issue now.

If you're looking for internal development, fine, there are some really fine astrologers who apparently do quite a bit this way. As for me, I came, I saw, and I left that kind of astrology unimpressed. Whatever floats your boat.

Tom
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amzolt



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
If you're looking for internal development, fine, there are some really fine astrologers who apparently do quite a bit this way. As for me, I came, I saw, and I left that kind of astrology unimpressed. Whatever floats your boat.


I am an astrologer who began my studies over 40 years ago and, as most do, took the traditional, event prediction road. The case I mentioned was a turning point in my understanding of what astrology is for, although there were many situations that showed me the truth about astrology's purpose.

You came, saw, and left unimpressed...

I'm curious, how long did you spend with "meaning-prediction" astrology?
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Olivia



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did you get access to classical texts 40 years ago? My first 'real' astrology book was Margaret Hone's Modern Textbook of Astrology, which had already adopted the abecedarian zodiac Zip Dobyns came up with.

It was psychological, in other words.

About all that was around in those days was Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, if you could find a copy. Even Lilly was only a rumour, and certainly unread, until the 1980s - there were perilously few copies of Christian Astrology left in the world. And the Persians were completely unheard of.
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amzolt



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Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olivia wrote:
How did you get access to classical texts 40 years ago?


Connections... Confused ?

Actually, "classical" (the word you used) and "traditional" (the word I used) are similar but not identical.
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