Hitler's Weird Humour 1 by Pete Hi all, I've always had a great deal of respect for John Frawley, believing him to have one of the most original astrological minds in the world. I've read both his books, "The Real Astrology" and "The Real Astrology Applied", and found them brilliantly written, but that's not to say that I don't question his findings occasionally. This is one such occasion. On page 11 of "T.R.A" he gives the horoscope of Hitler and on page 13, describing the predominant humour in this chart, he says that Hitler was "strongly choleric" Believing as I do that should you meet the Buddha on the road you should shoot him, I called my friend Ficina and we decided to check this, because it seemed to be a strange conclusion to come to. I then turned to page 121 of "T.R.A.A" where he describes his method of discovering the predominant humour in a birthchart and I then applied this technique to the horoscope of Hitler. This is what we came up with: ASC & Ruler: H+ M - - - - Moon: C+ D+ Sun: H - M - L.O.G. ( Venus? ) H.D. Then I added together the testimonies in the manner he advises on page 125, and I obtained a temperament that is a mixture of choleric and sanguine ( H & D; H & M ). While this does point to slightly more of the choleric than the sanguine, I would hardly describe his humour, based on the above, as "strongly choleric." The only reason for JF to say so would be if he didn't consider Venus to be the L.O.G., due to the fact that she is afflicted by the two ill-dignified malefics, and gave the honour to Mercury in Aries instead, which is oriental and angular. Unfortunately, Mr Frawley didn't elaborate, which is a pity. Anyone care to comment on this? Here's Hitler's data: April 20th 1889 18.32 hrs Braunau-am-Inn, Austria 13 E 02' 48 N 15 Asc: 27 LIB 03, Moon: 6 CAP 39' Cheers... Quote Mon May 10, 2004 9:33 pm
2 by Tom Hi Pete, Even more perplexing. John lists Venus occidental as simply moist in a cold dry sign like Taurus I don't see how one can get hot and dry. I didn't see how Mercury can be the LoG since he is peregrine and Venus is in rulership, but even if he were it isn't enough to overcome the sanguine nature. Hitler sanguine? I think the problem with this chart is that we can't take too much at face value. Yes Venus is in Taurus, but she is retrograde, and horribly afflicted by being conjunct Mars in Taurus (detriment) and square Saturn in Leo, (detriment), and Saturn is also conjunct Venus by antiscion. For these reasons he may not have chosen Venus as LoG. Mercury is angular and in a hot dry sign. but this still leaves the native more sanguine than anything else. There seems to be very little choler in this chart. Mercury in Aries opposing the ASC is pretty descriptive of the hysterical speeches he gave, and Mars is the domicile ruler of Mercury and the exaltation ruler of the Moon, the two significators of the mind. So I could easily accept that much choler. I tried this one more time using Mercury as the LoG. 1) Asc and ruler warm barely moist 2)Moon: very cold; very dry 3)Sun: barely warm barely moist 4)Mercury: Very warm barely moist There is a lot more heat than cold and only slight moisture. Perhaps this is why he said strongly choleric. To take another avenue, I would have expected more melancholy in this chart. In order to approve plans to exterminate not only an entire race, but a good portion of the world as well, one has to be pretty damn cold by nature. The lack of phlegm is to be expected, and coupled with a debilitated Mars and Saturn as significators of the manners a total lack of empathy is not too hard to understand. But I'm a bit puzzled as you are Pete. This does not seem like the chart of a strong choleric to me either. Tom Quote Tue May 11, 2004 1:05 am
3 by Pete Hi Tom, Even more perplexing. John lists Venus occidental as simply moist in a cold dry sign like Taurus I don't see how one can get hot and dry. Yes I agree. I don't know why I listed Venus as hot and moist, or whatever it was. If you factor in the aspects to Mars and Saturn ~ both occidental, you end up with a very cold and only slightly moist Venus; almost dry, in fact. So *there* would be the melancholic side to him, perhaps?Assuming that Venus is L o G, of course. I think the problem with this chart is that we can't take too much at face value. Yes Venus is in Taurus, but she is retrograde, and horribly afflicted by being conjunct Mars in Taurus (detriment) and square Saturn in Leo, (detriment), and Saturn is also conjunct Venus by antiscion. For these reasons he may not have chosen Venus as LoG. Mercury is angular and in a hot dry sign. but this still leaves the native more sanguine than anything else. There seems to be very little choler in this chart. Sure. In fact the only real choler in this chart comes from the Ascendant/Libra-Mercury/Aries pattern, but when we mix that with the Venus and the Moon in third quarter/Capricorn it brings the temperature right down doesn't it? Frawley includes aspects to the Moon, and here she's conjunct an oriental Jupiter in Cap', and that would only warm the Moon slightly anyway, wouldn't you say? There is a lot more heat than cold and only slight moisture. Perhaps this is why he said strongly choleric. Yes, but that heat is tempered quite a bit by the Taurus placements so I wouldn't describe it as "strongly" choleric at all. To take another avenue, I would have expected more melancholy in this chart. In order to approve plans to exterminate not only an entire race, but a good portion of the world as well, one has to be pretty damn cold by nature. When you look at how cold that Moon is and how dry the Mars and Saturn placements ( aspecting Venus ), and Mercury are, I'd say there's a fair amount of melancholy here to offset any choler. It doesn't make him melancholic by nature, but it does give him a strong melancholic streak, imo. If nothing else, this is a pretty good excercise in learning to think for oneself, wouldn't you say Tom? Cheers... Quote Tue May 11, 2004 12:50 pm
4 by Tom Hi Pete, Sure. In fact the only real choler in this chart comes from the Ascendant/Libra-Mercury/Aries pattern, but when we mix that with the Venus and the Moon in third quarter/Capricorn it brings the temperature right down doesn't it? Frawley includes aspects to the Moon, and here she's conjunct an oriental Jupiter in Cap', and that would only warm the Moon slightly anyway, wouldn't you say? Yes, I agree with you. The Moon gets only a slight warming from an intrinsically warm and moist Jupiter. And I agree with your other points. I don't see how he gets strongly choleric from this chart at all. But I also have to admit, I have problems with a sanguine Hitler. If nothing else, this is a pretty good excercise in learning to think for oneself, wouldn't you say Tom? Definitley. I'm a student of John's (remiss lately with my lessons) I have enormous respect for him and what he does with astrology, but he's human. Or maybe we're missing something. I think it is important for students of any subject to verify what they've being told. It's a good learning experience. I had one once. Robert Hand gave a workshop and said something about Lilly or something about what Lilly said that didn't sit right with me. I even asked him if he was sure, and he said he was. I still wasn't satisfied, so that night I went home and checked it out. It seems there was a slight misunderstanding. Mr. Hand didn't have it right after all. Now in no way do I have Hand's knowledge or expertise, not even close. But we all need to think about everything we're being taught and work things out ourselves. Hand himself tells that to students at workshops all the time. Which brings me to another exercise with this chart. Dorian Greenbaum, translator of Paulus Alexandrinus, just completed a book on temperament that will be published, she hopes, in time for the Christmas season. Dorian did a great deal of research on this topic and discovered that determination of temperament was done several ways by the various authors. She worked out a system and compared it to psychological test results in a private school and obtained a high degree of correlation. So I used her method on Hitler's chart. I have also checked charts using both her method and John's and they tend to come out pretty much the same using both techniques. Differences are where you might expect them. If, for example, one method had a sanguine-phlegmatic temperament with a slight nod to the sanguine, the other might show the same with a slight nod to the phlegmatic. Since temperament is rough work only, this is no problem. This isn't quite the case in Hitler's chart. Using Dorian's method I get sanguine and melancholic are even with a little phlegm and a little choler. Now if we follow John and look at the planets associated with the humors we see Jupiter in Capricorn and Venus in Taurus indicating the sanguine, and Saturn in Leo indicating the melancholic. Two planets in cold dry signs and a cold dry planet in a hot dry sign. I'd say melancholy dominates. Even the sanguine part is ruled by planets in cold, dry signs as are the phlegmatic (Moon in Capricorn) and chloeric (Mars and Sun in Taurus). No system is faultless. Hitler looked a bit like a choleric, and behaved like one out of control. That he was cold is beyond dispute. His ASC ruler is in as bad a condition as I've ever seen, and she's in her own domicile! John's use of Ptolemy's significators of the manners is accurate and instructive, and gives insight to the question of how anyone could be like that? I think John's method is sound and will yield accurate results. Like he says: this is rough work, we need to give our Virgo nature something else to do while we dope this out, and remember it is one part of the overall picture, not an end in itself. All cholerics aren't madmen, at least I'm not. I don't think. Tom Quote Tue May 11, 2004 2:14 pm
5 by Plejades Hi, Adolf Hitler?s chart is a good joke about working of tropical astrology. Was Hitler really a mixture of Venus signs like Taurus and Libra? Was he gentle, peace-maker, passive, just..? Here are the tools to understand Hitler?s true nature: Meridian Cancer Moon Sagittarius Sun Aries Mercury Pisces Venus Aries Mars Aries Jupiter Sagittarius Saturn Cancer That is sidereal chart for Adolf Hitler. Fire constellations like Aries and Sagittarius rule this chart (not earth signs). Aries shows Hitler?s egoistic and dominating psyche, and Sagittarius gave him power activate will of masses. Mercury in Pisces shows his irrational thinking. Meridian and Saturn in Cancer shows his emotional need to be someone. Cheers. Quote Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:18 pm
6 by Tom Adolf Hitler?s chart is a good joke about working of tropical astrology. Was Hitler really a mixture of Venus signs like Taurus and Libra? Was he gentle, peace-maker, passive, just..? Venus, ruler of Hitler's ASC and Sun is horribly afflicted. She is retorgrade conjunct Mars in his detriment, Taurus, and square Saturn in Leo detriment who also squares Mars. This affliction of the ASC and Sun ruler is where the problems are. The joke's on you. Traditional tropical astrology does not lend itself well to cookbook analysis. Tom Quote Sun Feb 06, 2005 8:28 pm
7 by ### This temperament subject is an area where I am pretty much at a loss. However, I do question the rejection of Hitler as sanguine. I have few resources here that discuss the temperaments, but I did come across the subject in the glossary from Lee Lehman?s website (www.leelehman.com). As an example she writes: ?Sanguine types are the jolly glad-handers?. Now I wouldn?t think of Hitler as jolly, but it does agree with the thought I had that sanguine would be useful for working the crowd. Isn?t that what Hitler was a master at? That was his power: he got others to do his will. Quote Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:11 pm
8 by Tom This probably belongs on another thread, but since it came up here, I'll try to address it. Temperament is the foundation of the character. It is not the beginning and end of the personality. I think what happens, and I think this because I do it, is that we look at the temperament and we assume the personality should obviously display those characteristics. While they are present, they are not necessarily obvious. Let's go over them real quickly. Choleric is the fire temperament. Lilly uses these words: "full of anger, ... ambitious, ... hardy, ... rash, ... easily changing their opinions." It is the temperament of the warrior; in today's culture it is more likely to manifest in the athlete. Sanguine is the air temperament: " ... cheeful, liberal, faithful, affable, open hearted modest, religious." Temperament usually gets the best write-up. John Frawley thinks this is so because writers tend to be sanguine. Melancholic: "slow in resolutions, fraudulent, keeping in close their counsels, prudent, severe, covetous, suspicious sorrowful, fearful, ... seldom forgetting injuries. ..." This does not necessarily mean depressed. Although it can mean that. Finally the most difficult temperament - phlegmatic: " ... very cowards, uxuorous people, mutable, not capable of keeping secrets, dull fellows and sluggards in perorming any business." Since the temperament is acted out by the significator of the manners, it follows that the part of the person we see, the personality, may not fit any of the above. For example George Patton was predominently sanguine, but Mars was his significator of the manners. So he presented himself as a warrior (Mars), but he studied military history, and forced himself through West Point, something no choleric would have patience enough to do. He was a brilliant tactician, but presented and acted on his ideas in a choleric fashion. Without waiting to be asked, (choleric/Martian) he developed a plan (sanguine) to relieve General MCauliff trapped at the beginning of the Battle of the Bulge. He insisted he could get his army to MCAuliff in a matter of days (choleric). He was given permission to follow his plan and then was asked how long it woud take him to turn his army around. He replied , "They're already on their way." This is a nice combination of the sanguine temperament (planning)expressed through Mars (action). He also had a strong melancholic streak, which gave him the necessary persistance to overcome his weaknesses. I recently did Hillary Clinton's temperament two ways: John Frawley's and Dorian Greenbaum's. They both came out predominently phlegmatic. However, she has a strong choleric streak and/or a strong melancholic streak (which one comes in second depends on the method, but 2nd and 3rd are close regardless of method) and her significator of manners is Mercury. She expresses her temperament with her wits and mostly verbally. If you think about it, she doesn't have a well organized plan to get to the White House. Oh she has the ambition, but her road has been all over the map. She married a man who became President, claimed she was the "Co-President," then she ran for US Senator and won in a state where she never lived (to ensure victory; a liberal running in New York is a virtual guaranteed winner). Her health care boondogle is typical of a phlegmatic: it wasn't well thought out, and as a result was brought down to defeat while her party controlled both houses of Congress. And most recently her dash to the political center to better place herself for a run at the Presidency in 2008 is typical of a phlegmatic. She may have core beliefs, but she is afraid ("very cowards") to run for election on them. So this temperament tends to fit. A good keyword for sanguine is "social." One has to be social to be a successful politician. It's been said that Hitler loved children. If so, this is a sanguine trait. His fiery speeches were definitely choleric: the screaming, the sheer physical displays inherent in them are frightening. I don't think it is out of the question that Adolph could have been predominently sanguine. All sanguine people are not wonderful, despite what the authors would have us believe. While all authorities may not agree on specific technique, they all agree that temperament is rough work. It's the foundation of the house, not the finish carpentry. It tells us something about the person. A big, deep foundation tells us the resulting building will be big. It doesn't tell us, if it is a fine arts museum, an office building or a sewerage treatment facility. That's the way we should be looking at it, not as the finished product. Tom Quote Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:18 am
9 by ### Thanks for the info, Tom. This is something that has been interesting me. The Lilly quotes are somewhat useful but seem more judgmental than descriptive; there must be some purpose to the phlegmatic type. Or are the temperaments all about good and bad qualities? I might be trying to equate the temperaments too strongly with the elements and signs which ?just are? in a neutral sort of way. In my current state of not really knowing what I?m talking about I will return to the subject of the thread and further my case for a sanguine Hitler. ?Social? is the keyword for sanguine that was banging around in my head. If temperament is a foundation, a basic orientation, then for the sanguine type the need for social acceptance is just around the corner. I believe this need for acceptance often comes up in Hitler studies. This could have been strengthened by the Sun (ruler of the MC), Venus (dispositor of the Sun and ruler of the Asc.) and Mars all present in the 7th house?identification with ?not-self?, acting through and with others. Quote Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:12 am
10 by Tom The Lilly quotes are somewhat useful but seem more judgmental than descriptive; They are. there must be some purpose to the phlegmatic type. Yes and it must be a higher purpose as much of it fts into my own temperament. Keep in mind, many, many charts will show two strong temperaments, maybe with one having a slight edge. Someone can be predominantly choleric with a strong phlegmatic streak (ahem) or they can be slightly more phlegmatic than choleric. You will see at times both temperaments in the individual at different times. The ideal human is supposedly perfectly balanced. Most of us are a ways off from that. An interesting way to use temperament is in relationship astrology. Using the above example, a person with somewhat more choler than phlegm, might find a good mate that has somewhat more phlegm than choler. They balance one another. A powerful choleric will not be balanced by a person with a strong phlegmatic temperament. They probably won't understand each other. If a person is strongly phlegmatic, then look for a strong malefic in the chart. Water lacks direction If the phlegmatic native has a nice Saturn in Libra for example, it gives us a way to direct the individual. A strong melancholic needs a push, but once they get moving they are like the proverbial boulder going downhill. The air and fire temperaments don't need as much of a push as heat rises naturally. Is this fair? No, but neither is life. I"m looking forward to reading Dorian's book in the next few months. She's done a great deal of research and I'm sure a lot of our questions will be answered. Tom Quote Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:57 pm
11 by MarkF I haven?t been following this thread much, but I?ve been trying to learn to do natal in general and temperament in particular. I?ve been paying close attention especially to how to add up all those little pluses and minuses, i.e., H++, D---. I came up with a little system for keeping track of the little pluses and minuses based on the example John Frawley gives in his book. My only source has been John Frawley on this, so I don?t know Dorian Greenbaum?s system but I really want her book as soon as it comes out. I did Hitler?s temperament on my own without reading this thread and I came out with strongly choleric, but only when you combine all four main points. Here is what I came up with: ASC: H+ M- Moon: C++ D+ Sun: H++ M- Lord of Geniture/Mercury: H++ D++ Total: H+++ D++ I think Frawley leaves it up to you as to whether define the temperament based on keeping the four points separate, or whether you add them all up. If you keep them separate in this case, you have two sanguines (ASC and Sun), one melancholic (Moon) and one choleric (LOG). Since the overall pattern is heat and dryness, I think that?s why Frawley combined them. After a bit of thought I had to use Mercury as the lord of the geniture. I?ve come to realize that the LOG is more about accidental dignity than essential. And Mercury is right on the 7th house cusp, opposite to the ASC. Mark F Quote Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:08 am
Re: Hitler's Weird Humour 12 by Andrew ASC & Ruler: H+ M - - - - Moon: C+ D+ Sun: H - M - L.O.G. ( Venus? ) H.D. This is from a Continental method from around the turn of the last century: ASC: Air. Cold and dry. Sanguine. Ruler: Earth. Cold and moist. Melancholic. Moon: Earth. Cold and moist. Melancholic. Sun: Earth. Cold and moist. Melancholic. Type: Melancholic. Just thought I'd add it to the mix. Quote Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:30 pm