17
Yuzuru -

That is a good mantra.

So how would you look at Stewart's chart (or at least the thirds of life)? What other methods would you employ? I just want to know how people make this a workable technique in practice.

Nina

18
Well, preliminary considerations: I would note that Martha is a very choleric lady! Not something you see in the cameras!

Manners are probably described by Jupiter or saturn...Her persona is covered by that saturn in taurus in the 7th, so probably saturn is lord of manners.

The luminar of the time is sun, which is in his own sign. Benefics are succedent, and we have one malefic angular and other cadent (and dignified).

Moon is in trine to sun, and she is in the 10th of fortuna promising at least some degree of fame!

The triplicity ruler of the sun are either angular or succedent, and they aspect the sun.

The ascendant ruler is dignified and joined to Jupiter and receives a trine from the angular sun.

With only those testimonies I would judge the native to have some degree of eminence. If she was on tv or if how much money she has, I think it is a different problem.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

19
Hi all,

Robert Schmidt wrote recently on the Hellenistic section of the ACT forum about the trigon lords as follows:
In Book II of Valens, where the technique of taking the trigon lords of the sect light is introduced, it is very clear that the first trigon lord has authority over the first part of the native?s life, the second over the second, and the third cooperates with both the first and the second periods. The cooperating lord has nothing to do with a third portion of the native?s life, as is often said in medieval texts. As a matter of fact, Valens has some interesting rules for timing the change-over from the first to the second trigon lord. I believe that if the medieval astrologers had had Valens at their disposal, they never would have claimed such a thing. Dorotheus is somewhat vague on the topic.
Here's the whole discussion: http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=113 .

Lot of Spirit

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Hi ,Yuzuru and Tom made interesting contributions.An inportant feature of the chart's delineation would be also note the locations of the Lots.The location of the Lot of spirit shows a prospering place,for exemple.In Martha's chart Spirit in Gemini(by degree calculation),maybe will convert the 8 house in a prospery place.There's a comentary by Robert Schmidt in the book 4 of the anthology,pointing that " the presence of lots seems to be capable of making a poor zoidion prospering".It will be the case in Martha's chart ? I don't know what is his opinion today about the matter.
Jupiter ,becomes active at +-28/29 years old,the ascension times for Gemini at latitude 40 gives 28 degrees 47. At 26 years Martha begun a sucessfull carrer as a stokebroker,then in her 29 year she was working in it.
At 26 years old,her progressed M.C. at 15 virgo is in square with this Jupiter of house 8,and progressed jupiter is in exact sextil with natal M.C.
All the best
Gerson
"Life is a gift,enjoy"

21
To yuzuru's point about using the whole chart:

I dragged out my crumbling copy of Al Khayyat's The Judgments of Nativities (James Holden, translator). he stated that having Lord ASC in domicile or exaltation in an applying aspect to the luminaries in similar condition indicates a life of prosperity. Stewart's Sun in Aries applies to the Lord of the ASC, Mars in Aries. Trying to further divide this into sections to see which portion of the life is most prosperous in a prosperous life, is just gilding the lily or in John Frawley's apt phrase, "a little too precious."

"And if the lord of the ASC applies to the luminaries, and they are found to be in their exaltations or their domiciles, or if the luminaries apply to the lord of the ASC and it is in its exaltation or in its own domicile, they signify good fortune for the native throughout his whole life."

The Judgments of Nativities, Abu Ali Al Khayyat, AFA page 12.

Tom

22
I leave you all alone for a day, and look at all the replies that pile up! :D
Thanks so much for taking the time to address my question.

Tom - indeed, my copy of Al-Khayyat is dissolving into a fine powder as well. AFA just put out a new version, so I will be getting that, because I would not be without this fine work.

Thank you for the quotation; I would highlight it but for said dissolution into powder of my copy. I understand your point about being too Virgoesque about this, but the triplicity lords ruling thirds of life is a technique that many of the ancient writers not only discuss, but demonstrate, which leads me to think it was a fairly important concept. I'm thinking of Dorotheus, Valens, and of course Al-Khayyat himself.

My approach tends to be to believe what the ancients say until proven otherwise. That is why I want to get to the bottom of this and see if there is a way this method can work. Your earlier post about the reception makes this work, and I appreciate your indulgent reply.

Gerson - I also wonder if Fortuna or the Part of Spirit turns an inhospitable place into a prosperous one. My guess would be not, as the Lots are not things the way planets are, but I have not investigated this, have no proof, etc. This is something for me to find out as well. If I find some info about this in Valens, I will share with the group.

Papretis - Excellent quote; exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thank you! I see where Schmidt is going with this, but I wonder just how this would have worked out in practice, as in Stewart's chart. Sun - excellent 1/3 of life, Jupiter - excellent 2/3 of life due to aspect to Sun, and then Sun with Jupiter and Saturn (?) - good but also bad last third of life? Blending the planets in the last third might muddy the waters. Again, something worth investigating for me.

Yuzuru - Yes, I was surprised to see so much choler, as well. I've actually never seen her show, but she comes across very regal, not your stereotypical angry choleric, like the Jim Cramer TV persona. Note that both the choleric planets, Sun and Mars, are in very good shape - this is someone using their choler in a constructive way. This is a little technique I learned from John Frawley and have found quite useful.

Nina

23
ninotchka7 wrote: Papretis - Excellent quote; exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thank you! I see where Schmidt is going with this, but I wonder just how this would have worked out in practice, as in Stewart's chart. Sun - excellent 1/3 of life, Jupiter - excellent 2/3 of life due to aspect to Sun, and then Sun with Jupiter and Saturn (?) - good but also bad last third of life? Blending the planets in the last third might muddy the waters. Again, something worth investigating for me.
Nina
Well, I may have understood Schmidt point wrongly, but he was talking about a controverse that stated that the participating triplicity ruler is only that, participating. So, you do not divide the person's life in 3 parts, you divide into 2, and then the participating is activated the whole time. And he goes on saying that the medieval astrologers actually understood the technique wrongly, due to lack of access to original material.

Thinking about this I remember Cardan, that said that people born during the night that have all planets below the horizon never see their potential fullfilled (cause they die before it, at least in medieval times)...

I should point that in this chart Saturn does see the Sun, but does not see Jupiter. That could be the key, since Sun and Jupiter have a close relation, but only Jupiter is free from Saturn's evil glance.

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I understand your point about being too Virgoesque about this, but the triplicity lords ruling thirds of life is a technique that many of the ancient writers not only discuss, but demonstrate, which leads me to think it was a fairly important concept
I've never been too crazy about the technique. In fact when I first read your post I thought "Why the Sun? Why not Jupiter or the ASC? The answer is the Sun in Stewart's chart is the luminary of sect, but so what? The Sun is the giver of life not the giver of property. And the Moon at night reflects the Sun's light, and the Moon is fertility, which is potential not material.

The idea is at once intimate and vague. What is prosperity and how do we measure it and how do we know the native well enough in order to judge it? We're judging Martha Stewart based on what we believe to be her earnings. Perhaps the first third of her life was the happiest or that she would rate it the best and most prosperous for reasons that have nothing to do with material wealth. Without knowing Martha Stewart personally, we'll never know.

None of these techniques are foolproof and none of them trump all the others all the time. Remember the first thing these astrologers would have done is determine the length of life. This isn't done for morbid curiosity. It's done to put things in perspective. Does this person have the time to accomplish what is in the chart? Showing success late in life when there will be no late in life is useless information regardless of how important the technique is reputed to be.

Secondly and perhaps most importantly there are things in the chart that trump other things; they just don't do it all the time. The trick is to determine what they are. This is why astrology is so difficult (I would argue impossible) to measure scientifically. Yes Saturn in Libra in the 7th can indicate a long marriage, but if the chart shows early widowhood it might not come to be. This does not invalidate the Saturn in the 7th indicating long marriage in every other chart.

My guess is that a medieval astrologer looking at Martha Stewart's chart would have noted lifelong prosperity and ignored the triplicity rulers no matter what they said because of the power of the Sun - Mars trine. He may have moved on to health or children or whatever interested her. However if there was no standout indication about the wealth, one way or the other, then more attention would be focused on them. The triplicity rules are, at best, broad indications that are brought into more focus as the life unfolds and the astrologer would look for that with directions, firdaria, profections, revolutions, ... whatever. The triplicity rulers for any concern are not absolute.

I see the biggest obstacle to understanding these old texts is that our immediate understanding is based on our worldview rather than theirs. Abu Ali didn't have an office where clients dropped in to find out their futures. He was more likely to work for the nobility and with only a few of them. He therefore could and would devote days to a question, whereas the contemporary astrologer only devotes a couple of hours and a sixty to 90 minute interview.

We can see this most clearly in Abu Mashar's work on solar returns. It's been joked that if the astrologer did everything Mashar instructed it would take a full revolution to do one chart. That might be true, but Mashar didn't see very many people. He had the time to tease out the chart's minutiae.

Yes all the ancients recommended the technique, but they also recommended others. They had their own experiences as consulting astrologers in mind when they left their instructions. They couldn't have guessed or circumstances much less figured out how we would interpret their works. Rob Hand doesn't think very many of these works were intended as full blown texts. The expense and difficulty of publishing makes it more likely they were what we would call study guides. This means a lot was left out of the writing that was discussed "in class." This always made sense to me.

Thanks for the tip about getting a new copy of Abu Ali. I'll be ordering mine.

Tom

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Hi ninotchka7 and others,

The techniques of predicting the different parts of life using the three triplicity (trigon) rulers seem to fall into 2 contradicting methods:

1. The Hellenistic method (Schmidt, Brennan and others who follow them)

According to them (and they argued persuasively) that ancient Hellenistic astrologers divide life into 2 parts. The first trip lord of the main luminary governs the first part of life and the seond trip lord governs the second part of life. The participating Lord assists both. They also claim that there is a method to calculate/estimate the changeover from the first to the second.

2. The medieval method (The Arabs, Bonatti and many of us!)

They simply divide life into three parts, the first trip lord of the main luminary governs the first part of life, the second trip lord governs the second part of life and the third trip lord governs the third of life.

Persuasive are their arguments (the first) but somehow in my practice, I find that the second (medieval) method gives better results.

Anyway, if you are interested in Valens method, the angularities (house positions) are key to use in this method. Valens also said that the ruler of the trip ruler can also contribute to the corresponding phase of life (see his last statements in the same chapter that he discusses this method). AND (more importantly) he also said (in a different chapter on Lots), angular houses relative to the Lot of Fortune can be more active than angular houses relative to ascendant (horoskopos) - more mystical (in his terms). We can surmise that angular houses relative to ascendant (horoskopos) are "active" in putting the native to the limelight in life (making him/her "busy" in life) but not necessarily receiving the full benefits of what life has to offfer. He/she might be working very hard and doing what he/she does best (effective) but somehow receive less than he/she deserves. Angular houses relative to the Lot of Fortune brings events that befall the native (be them positive or negative) to the native making them sometimes receive recognition and power (though probably not through their own making). Of course the whole chart will have to be analyzed properly.

Using Whole Sign house system, Egyptian terms and Dorotheus/Valens triplicty lords,

Martha Stewart Chart:

The luminary in sect is sun (for a day chart) and the sun is angular (whole sign).

The three triplicity (trigon) lords are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn.

Sun is located in the 10th house (from Asc) and in the 6th house (from Lot of Fortune). The dispositor of sun is sun itself.

Jupiter is located in the 8th house (from Asc) and in the 4th house (from Lot of Fortune). The dispositor is Mercury in the 9th house (from Asc) and in the 5th house (from Lot of Fortune).

Saturn is located in the 7th house (from Asc) and in the 3rd house (from Lot of Fortune). The dispositor is Venus in the 11th house (from Asc) and in the 7th house (from Lot of Fortune).

If we use the Medieval 3 parts of life = 3 trip lords:

The first part of life is governed by Sun. Sun in 10th house (from Asc) definitely tells us that Martha would have a very busy life during her first part of life. She would be doing a lot of things that will be effective though she might feel that she did not receive all what she worked/hoped for because the period is not so fortuitous because sun is cadent relative to Lot of Fortune. The fact that sun is so strong in Leo also tells us that her life is very much affected by strong male figures in her life (her father and husband - both can be represented by sun in a day chart).

The second part of life is governed by Jupiter. Although Jupiter is in the 8th house (from Asc, which is considered a house that diminishes the benefics in it), it is in the 4th house relative to Lot of Fortune. This means that although she might do unproductive or foolish things (an 8th house Jupiter), she would still be lucky and have a fortuitous life (luck is on her side) due to the angular position of Jupiter relative to Lot of Fortune. This is enhanced due to Jupiter being the domicile Lord of Lot of Fortune! The dispositor is Mercury. For Mercury to assist Jupiter, Mercury must be configured with Jupiter (aspect, etc.). Jupiter and Mercury are in mutual generosity (to use the Medieval term of mutual reception with no aspect) - Jupiter in Mercury's domicile and Mercury in Jupiter's exaltation. There is no aspect between Mercury and Jupiter but they are in signs that are in antiscion - so they are not in complete aversion to each other. Mercury can then give benefits to Jupiter. Mercury is in the houses that trine both Asc and Lot of Fortune (which can bring benefit to the native).

The third part of life is governed by Saturn. Although Saturn is a malefic, it is in sect in both Hellenistic (Saturn in sect in day chart) and Medieval definitions (Saturn is in the hemisphere of the sun). Hellenistically Saturn (in sect) and angular can still give benefit though he can still give problems (due to his natural malefic tendency). Is her life fortuitous? Not so, as Saturn is cadent relative to Lot of Fortune. Venus (dispositor of Saturn) does help as she is in trine with Saturn. Quite a co-incident to see that Saturn (natural ruler of limitation/restriction/rejection) is also the exalted ruler of the 12th (relative to Asc) and domicile ruler of 12th (relative to Lot of Fortune) - and the relation to her imprisonment. Like you said though, Venus does help her Saturn with the trine aspect (with angular Venus from Lot of Fortune and in the 11th from Asc).

Of the three periods then, Sun and Jupiter seem to be her best periods though I would vote Jupiter's period is better because it is angular with Fortuna and Lord of Lot of Fortune (making life extremely fortuitous) esp. in terms of money as Jupiter is domicile Lord of Lot of Fortune, domicile lord of 2nd house (relative to Asc) and domicile lord of tenth from Lot of Fortune. Why the more emphasis to places relative to Lot of Fortune? Because, (1) Valens said so and (2) usually people relate success to material benefits or things that are more "material" - which is the domain of Lot of Fortune.

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Astrojin -

Thank you for taking the time to go through the chart. Yours is exactly the kind of reply I had been hoping for.

The use of houses relative to Fortuna makes sense to me, especially since we are looking at Stewart's advancement in the world and acquisition of wealth. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge - this is another method I can investigate.

To your comprehensive analysis, I would only add two things:

1. The second third of Stewart's life was assisted by Mercury partly because it was in the 5th sign from Fortuna. My understanding is that the 5th can be very efficacious - do you have thoughts on this?

2. The 11th can be very important for financial gain as well (c.f. Valens 2.21 who calls it the "acquisitive place"); in Stewart's chart, there are no planets in Capricorn, but I wonder if this makes her last third of life less financially problematic than if Saturn did not rule the Acquisitive Place, especially because Venus is assisting from the 11H. Again, any thoughts you have on this are most welcome.

Nina

27
Hello Nina,
1. The second third of Stewart's life was assisted by Mercury partly because it was in the 5th sign from Fortuna. My understanding is that the 5th can be very efficacious - do you have thoughts on this?
Yes. I do agree with you on the 5th house being a good house but I still have this Medieval bent in me that I must not have the dispositor in complete aversion to the planet it is assisting. A domicile dispositor of a planet can assist the planet if the dispositor is configured with the planet. Configuration can mean whole sign aspect or like engirding signs, signs of equal power or signs of equal rising (as long as they are not in complete aversion). The dispositor can then assisst the planet (dispositor can be seen as the back-up planet or its support where the main planet can fall on to in times of need). Hellenistically, the dispositor should also be the sect mate.
2. The 11th can be very important for financial gain as well (c.f. Valens 2.21 who calls it the "acquisitive place"); in Stewart's chart, there are no planets in Capricorn, but I wonder if this makes her last third of life less financially problematic than if Saturn did not rule the Acquisitive Place, especially because Venus is assisting from the 11H. Again, any thoughts you have on this are most welcome.
Yes. I also agree with you on this. It is probably better to have a benefic ruling the 11th from Lot of Fortune (or better a benefic in 11th from Lot of Fortune) and not Saturn (a natural malefic) who is also ruling the 12th from Lot of Fortune!

PS: However, Saturn as domicile lord of 12th from Lot of Fortune and exalted ruler of 12th from Asc can also mean acquisition (Saturn is Lord of 11th from Lot of Fortune) from clandestine activities! (as Saturn is connected to the 12th from Lot of Fortune as well as Asc).