2
When dealing with the malefics we do reverse thinking. 12th is the house of Saturn's joy because there it's theoretically without means to get out (so it's strength comes from the fact it's actually weakened).

The same applies to Mars in 6th.

The Dorothean triplicity follows this same reasoning, so that's why Mars is in better shape in Cancer in a night chart, although in fall, than the Sun when in Libra for example (Mars is the malefic out of sect in a day chart, the opposite happens with Saturn). That's also why some do not like the idea of a Scorpio Mars in early degrees conjunct Midheaven, unless you are going to be an executive or a militar without a heart.

And I find joy to be a dignity of little consequence. Hayz is much more important in my opinion.

3
My question arises out of observing Saturn as AC ruler placed in house 12.

I always thought the joy of Saturn in house 12 arose out of its being more debilitated and thus unable to do as much harm.

But with my question then, a 12th house AC ruler Saturn is not good for the person in question, because they themselves are incapable of doing harm, being accidentally debilitated.

So in Lilly?s list of dignities 12th house Saturn = -5 points for Saturn and the houses which he is lord over, yet it is a joy, because he is so weakened that he is unable to do harm to others and himself...

It is said that Moon has joy in 8th house by night, somewhere, I can?t remember where, but that at night she is the only one to profit from the 8th. And in one sense I believe that this is true, yet she is debilitated by this house none-the less. It?s in my opinion a case of living in fear and the presence of crisis, while inheriting wealth. That is the joy of the Moon.

And Saturn in house 12 is institutionalised because all actions of evil will come right back at him, which is why he is cautious about doing them and keeps himself in check.

I still want to know what you think of AC ruler Saturn in house 12. Jaques Chirac is one example as is Obama.

Could this be the case of someone enjoying misfortune? Or enjoying having things go wrong?

4
First of all I would look at sign position. If it was in the 12th, but in the 1st sign, it would be very different from being in 12th in the 12th sign. After I'd see essential dignity. Then I would see if it aspects it's dispositor by whole sign. And finally, if there was any close aspect to any planet angular or sucedent, and the kind of reception.

If none or few of these applied, i'd say the person has lots of problems, being constantly overwhelmed by unknown conditions, sickness, and seldom, if at all, getting help from anyone (others would further harm the person actually). AC ruler in a bad place and in bad shape is quite evil indeed.

In case of the Ruler in 12th having an outlet, and essential dignity, it's like a man enjoying status among enemies, right in the face of adversity. That is part of his life, and he has what it takes to survive and beat his enemies and/or will not be torn by the enviroment.

5
So you?re of the camp that Saturn doesn?t have joy in the 12th, that the 12th is an purely unfortunate situation unless essential dignity and other planets lend support. That?s my position too, I follow Lilly?s checklist pretty slavishly. 12th house gets -5. :lol:

6
If it was in the 12th, but in the 1st sign, it would be very different from being in 12th in the 12th sign.
But if it?s in the 12th sign, and in the 11th house...what do you do then...whole sign houses are not something I?m a fan of, the 11th is most fortunate after the Angular houses.

7
Well, if it was already in the 12th sign, I would say that whatever that Saturn represents will turn problematic at some point in the life of the native. And the fact that it is sucedent would make it even stronger by acidental strength, so, when something bad activated out of it, it would be harmfull indeed, and longer lasting.

Still, the distance from the cusp tends to play a huge part on this analysis, and a transit could trigger somehing in the 11th as well (a positive side effect, probably) even though I would say it would be more influential on the 12th. Still, this would be true only in the case of a malefic, if it was a benefic, say Jupiter, I'd see it as having acidental strength to mitigate 12th house matters, since it's not into it, but has power in the sign that's on the cusp of the 12th house. Obviously, I'd do that always looking at the essential dignity, since even a benefic, if it has no dignity, creates trouble (although that would mean trouble for others, some would argue...)

8
I still think that there is something to the Joy of Saturn in the 12th. It?s a given that any planet in the 12th is in debility, including Saturn.

But I can?t let go that there is some kind of happiness in this misfortune which is not seen elsewhere. I have a few examples to go on and one of which includes a Capricorn Rising - Capricorn Saturn in the 12th. Of course it is an essential dignity which indicates the strength of character in the person.
Saturn now upon the house of the 12th either kills or imprisons many of our natives ill friends.

Is the only reference I can find in Lilly to the "joy" of Saturn, he often mentions that Saturn joys in Aquarius, but that?s the essential rather than accidental.

Misfortune to enemies though.... How about that! I think that?s quite revelatory. However, in this context Lilly is contradictory because Saturn in house 1 would signify misfortune to the person... Saturn as ruler of house 1 in house one, say in essential dignity.

I find more complication now than I had when I first ask the question. :lol:

9
Regarding the Joy of Saturn:
A lot of good scientific and other authorial work has been performed under the solitude of Saturn in the 12th.

To look at the problem in another manner:
As far as getting 'lost' is concerned (Saturn), there is no better place than the 12th house.

Prehaps it has something to do with that only by giving loss to the self, there is the potential of true freedom and discovery. It is in the quiet and calm that we find a true awakening.
http://www.astronor.com

12
I must dissagree with some things said here.

For example, Barack Obama has Aquairus AC, and Saturn in Capricorn in 12 house without major aspect. Saturn is in his domicile, but in 12 house. Enslaved person, blocked, introverted etc. He is now president of the USA, okey he has Sun in Leo on the cusp of 7 , it is a strong position, but we can t ignore ruler of his AC Saturn. He isnt weak, introvertred with mentall problems. He is open person.

I also saw a many of charts of some FBI-directors who have ruler 1 in 12, some of them are AC Capricorn , Saturn in 12. How explain that ?

I think on the contrary that this person who has that Saturn can develop a lot of power threw that planet.
As long as you remember me I ll never be too far