16
Mithra6 wrote:So in using the total orbs for aspects, do you use the orb of the planet being aspected to? That planet will be a superior planet correct?
I reply with my notes, I don't know what others will write:

We can have:
1) partilis or perfectissima: by degree
2) mutua or platick: when both are in the other's orb
3) partialis when just one of the planet's orb is involved
4) no aspect.

I call Semi-diameter SD the half of vis luminis of planet 1 and 2;

SD aspect= (sd1 +sd2)/2

1) if the distance of the aspect = or less than 1
2) if the distance of the aspect is less than SD aspect
3) if the distance of the aspect is greater than SD aspect but lesser than the greatest between sd1 and sd2
4) if the distance of the aspect is greater than both sd1 and sd2

Margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

17
Incidentally, one of the footnotes in Ben Dykes work (and I have seen this comment made by several other authors too) claims this is a different approach to that taken by William Lilly, suggesting that Lilly used 9? as the total orb of Saturn, rather than its radius. I know that Ben will correct this in a later edition, but just to be clear - this is very much the same approach that Lilly took. For example he says of Saturn (CA p. 60) ?His orb is 9 degrees before and after; that is, his influence begins to work when either he applies, or any planet applies to him, and is within 9 degrees of his aspect, and from that aspect?.
From The Astrological Judgement and Practice of Physick by Richard Saunders (1677):
The Menographick Aspect is, when two planets do behold each other, and yet the distance between the Centre of both their Bodies doth not differ from a perfect Aspect above the Semidiameter of one of them, and yet it must exceed the Semidiameter of the other of them ... if Venus were in the 4th degree of Cancer, and the Moon in the 12th degree of Aries: here the difference from a perfect Aspect is 8 degrees, which is less than the Moon her Semidiameter, and more than the Semidiameter of Venus, so that the Moon by her beams toucheth Venus, but not Venus the Moon, and therefore in that respect, the configuration between them is not so perfect.

That is, the menographic aspect described by Richard Saunders uses the full extension of the orb.

18
Andrew wrote:
That is, the menographic aspect described by Richard Saunders uses the full extension of the orb.
What "menographic" means is dark for me. Is there another easier word for it?

In every case it seems to me the case called "partialis." (case 3 in my previous post)

The distance of two planets is 8 degree, moiety of Venus is 7 and moiety of the Moon is 12.
So this distance 8 is greater than Venus moiety - we don't have this word, so I called it semidiameter- but lesser than the Moon one.
This means that Venus is the action area of Moon but Moon is out from Venus area.
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

19
I thought that the Greeks just used the positions of the signs and not the planets as basis for their aspects. So a planet in Capricorn and a planet in Aries would always be in square aspect, whether their distance was 61? or 119?.

Could medieval astrologers have found inspirations for the orbs in the size radius of the epicycles of the planets in the Ptolemaic system?

I couldn't find a lot but here I found some numbers of sizes.
http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/46/?pa=con ... =3120&pf=1
?7, Table 2.

I tried to copy it but it got a bit messy, but still readable I think.

Length
Time (days)

Mercury
12?
20

Venus
15?
40

Mars
16?
72

Jupiter
10?
120

Saturn
7?
140

20
Deb wrote:For Papretis[/b][/i], in regard to the comment I made about your post, here is a good example to show that the approach was used in aspects as well as the conjunction. This is from the 5th century text of Olympiodorus, ch.16, (564: Variant text for p. 29, ll. 9-23 - p. 30, ll. 1-2.) ? I am using the Dorian Greenbaum translation:
? application/connection by body is said whenever the Moon, when being carried to one of the stars, should come together with it from a distance of 12?. And again separation by body, whenever, after coming together with the star, it should stand the same 12? away. After these [degrees] it is not said to separate by body. Application and separation by figure is said whenever it comes to be with a star before 12? of the precise figure-description of a hexagon, square, triangle or diameter, up to its connection; but separation from it is standing away up to 12?? after the separating of a star either by body or by figure, one must examine if it applies to another.
(Late Classical Astrology: Paulus Alexandrinus and Olympiodorus, (Reston, VA; 2001).
Thank you Deb! Those being there listening your presentations benefit, and we benefit from your research here... :'

21
Hi Tom,

In case you noticed my earlier post and are wondering why my comment has changed, I just realised that your comment wasn't addressed to me, so my response wasn't necessary, and probably wasn't helpful.
Hi Deb,

Nope missed it in its entirety. Don't worry about it.

Tom

22
MarkC wrote:Hello Johannes,
this must be a misunderstanding: Morin (volume 16 chapter 13 of AG) speaks of: "18 gradus pro semidiametro orbis sua luminis"
for the Sun. And that is 18 degrees before and behind him, as always.
No argument about that. I was discussing the combined moeity of the Sun + Moon together. 18+12=30
Hello Mark,

exactly, and that is the point! :D As far as to my understanding of Morin, he is not in dissens to the general doctrine of dividing into halves the sum of the half diameters (or radii) of the aspecting planets (or perhaps not in dissens to the older technique mentioned by Deb). In any case Morin would not combine the sun's and the moon's orbs to an amount of 30 degrees. Let's see it at about 15? - 18? at the most.

As to my knowledge Dariot first mentioned moieties, but as a term for semidiameter or half the diameter = radius.

Lilly used the term moiety in the meaning of half the orb = half of the semidiameter = half of the radius. This as an anticipated step of calculation, because he uses a planet's moiety exclusively in addition to the moiety of another planet to determine their application or separation.
In the end the result is just the same as dividing into halves the sum of both the?r orbs = radii.

Perhaps this is the point of a misunderstanding?

23
Andrew wrote: From The Astrological Judgement and Practice of Physick by Richard Saunders (1677):
The Menographick Aspect is, when two planets do behold each other, and yet the distance between the Centre of both their Bodies doth not differ from a perfect Aspect above the Semidiameter of one of them, and yet it must exceed the Semidiameter of the other of them ... if Venus were in the 4th degree of Cancer, and the Moon in the 12th degree of Aries: here the difference from a perfect Aspect is 8 degrees, which is less than the Moon her Semidiameter, and more than the Semidiameter of Venus, so that the Moon by her beams toucheth Venus, but not Venus the Moon, and therefore in that respect, the configuration between them is not so perfect.

That is, the menographic aspect described by Richard Saunders uses the full extension of the orb.
Hi Andrew,

is menographic possibly a misprint? Menographic is unknown to my dictionaries. The meaning of mono- (greek monos - single, alone) would make sense in this context of focussing on only one orb (radius) of applying or separating planets at a time, even though the term monographic sounds a little strange in this context.

Johannes

24
Hello Mark,

exactly, and that is the point! As far as to my understanding of Morin, he is not in dissens to the general doctrine of dividing into halves the sum of the half diameters (or radii) of the aspecting planets (or perhaps not in dissens to the older technique mentioned by Deb). In any case Morin would not combine the sun's and the moon's orbs to an amount of 30 degrees. Let's see it at about 15? - 18? at the most
Hello Johannes,

I claim no knowlege of what Morin said or didn't state about this subject. I was simply responding to what Tom said.
Morin gives these (rather large) orbs in Astrologia Gallica Book 18

Sun 36 degrees
Moon 24 degrees
Mercury 16 degrees
Venus 26 degrees
Mars 13 degrees
Jupiter 16 Degrees
Saturn 14 degrees

The moieties are half these.
Perhaps I misunderstood what Tom meant? I am really only familiar with using Lilly's approach and that has undoubtably coloured how I perceived this. Its clearly more complicated than I appreciated. As I already seem to have confused what Al Biruni was saying on orbs and moeities I am cautious to say anything else in case that is wrong too! :oops:
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

25
is menographic possibly a misprint? Menographic is unknown to my dictionaries.
Not a misprint. It occurs in the Astrology Classics Medical Series reprint edition published by AstroAmerica as well as the original facsimile edition published by Kessinger. Meno, month; graphic, written.

I suspect the orb values provided by al-Biruni may be idealized: if one takes Saturn (9?) and the Moon (12?), their values differ from each other by a difference of 3?; if one takes Jupiter (9?) and Mercury (7?), their values differ from each other by a difference of 2?; and if one takes Mars (8?) and Venus (7?), their values differ from each other by a difference of 1?. In other words, the difference in orb values between these planets descends from 3 to 1 in an ordered sequence of proportions.

In practice, Morin distinguishes between what he calls the extension of the "influential force" of a planet and its "intensity of influence." He states that the influential force (strength) of the Sun is 18?, that of the Moon is 15?, that of Saturn and Mars is 12?, that of Jupiter, Venus and Mercury is 8?. Then he adds, "In reality, no mortal can determine the influential force of a planet with precision." Thus, perhaps, the idealized orbs of al-Biruni.

26
Andrew wrote:
is menographic possibly a misprint? Menographic is unknown to my dictionaries.
Not a misprint. It occurs in the Astrology Classics Medical Series reprint edition published by AstroAmerica as well as the original facsimile edition published by Kessinger. Meno, month; graphic, written.
Just going to ask you about the meaning of 'month' in our topic I read in The Astrological Judgment and Practice of Physick, London 1677, scanned original, pages 3 and 4 your quotation - but beginning:
"The Monographick Aspect is, when two Planets behold each other, . . . "

Still a later misprint? :shock: :D

Please, could you give book and chapter of your very interesting Morin quotation? It's a lot easier to find in the Latin original then. Thank you!

Johannes

27
Just going to ask you about the meaning of 'month' in our topic I read in The Astrological Judgment and Practice of Physick, London 1677, scanned original, pages 3 and 4 your quotation - but beginning:
"The Monographick Aspect is, when two Planets behold each other, . . . "

Still a later misprint?
Hmm ... I scanned and enlarged the text and it seems you might be correct: the enlarged text seems to show an "o" rather than an "e" though it could easily be mistaken for either one. The "AstroAmerica" edition clearly renders the word as "menographic." "Monographic" is related to "a scholarly piece of writing of essay or book length on a specific, often limited subject." In this context, "menographic" seems to make more sense; maybe Saunders wrote "monographic" when he meant "menographic"? ;-)
Please, could you give book and chapter of your very interesting Morin quotation? It's a lot easier to find in the Latin original then. Thank you!
Astrologia Gallica Book Eighteen: The Strengths of the Planets, p. 11.